20517 replies to this topic

[Ovion]

FLG 01, on 05 July 2018 - 01:38 PM, said:

Regular multiplier for light Mechs is 1.4x. That means an engine cap of 245, not the 275 or even 300 you wanted.
And if you want to use more than one big gun on a Hollander you miss the point of that Mech anyway, but at least it shows you know how bad the concept really is, as does hoping for UrbanMech level quirks to save it.

For the record, I am not saying there is no way the Hollander might be alright. I am saying the Hollander needs massive quirks and massive hardpoint inflation (plus some other help like increased engine cap), and at that point is really not a Hollander anymore. Also, it's not very likely to happen.

Unfortunately it's more likely that we get a terrible Mech noone will use, because nostalgia blinded people. Again.

I wasn't even using the equation, just what existing 35T mechs with the same base engines have.

The Urbanmech got a *little* hardpoint inflation, and a bit of engine cap inflation, and does really well.
The Hollander has a 175 base engine, like I stated before.
And, as I stated before there's existing mechs with tha size engine, that would have 275.
But even at 245, it's not awful.

Even without quirks it wouldn't be DOA, and with the majority of things being covered by something with little to nothing 'original' performance wise to add, you're mainly going to be riding nostalgia or power creep for cash. - which would you prefer?

[Odanan]

Would this dual AC/2s Hollander be good? (if well quirked, I think it would)

PS: targeting computer can be replaced by 1 DHS.

PPS: of course, both AC/2s are in the same side torso.

Edited by Odanan, 05 July 2018 - 02:05 PM.

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 05 July 2018 - 02:03 PM, said:

Would this dual AC/2s Hollander be good? (if well quirked, I think it would)

There is a reason noone uses such a build on the Firestarter or Panther, and that's because it's little more than a joke build. You'd need insane quirks to make that good, like 100% cooldown.

Ovion, on 05 July 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

The Urbanmech got a *little* hardpoint inflation, and a bit of engine cap inflation, and does really well.
[...]
Even without quirks it wouldn't be DOA

Wait, the UrbanMech got "a bit" of engine cap inflation? Going from 60 stock to 180, using a 3x multiplier, is "a bit"? Alright.
And the Hollander without quirks is not DoA. Suffice to say I don't think so.

Again: I am not talking about power creepy levels of good. I am talking about good enough to have fun with it (even without Annihilator-level quirks). I don't want to waste a precious light Mech release on a Mech that will very likely end up collecting dust in the hangar, never used in game. The IS got enough of those thanks to MW:4 already.

[Odanan]

Lets see how the pack would be:

BZK-F3: 5 ballistics
BZK-G1: 2 ballistics, 2 energy
BZK-P1? (PGI-made variant): ?

Reinforcements: (45 tons, Hollander IIs)
BZK-F5: 2 ballistics, 2 energy, 1 missile
BZK-F7: 6 ballistics

Edited by Odanan, 05 July 2018 - 02:22 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ovion, on 05 July 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

The minimum weapons is 3-4 (to match across variants like otehr mechs do).
The engine cap is mid/upper of 35T mechs anyway.

People said much the same about the Urbanmech too tbh, but... that's a staple now.

compact hitboxes or huge honking torso cannon... yeah.. apples and oranges.

[Sereglach]

I see ZERO reason for the 35t Hollander. The only semi reasonable way I see releasing the Hollander is if they utterly avoid all of the single gun variants and basically only release the 45t Hollander II. Besides, most of the nostalgia for the Hollander comes from the 45 ton Hollander II in MechCommander, but for some reason it is also transferred onto the Hollander. I mostly blame that on a lot of people not even realizing that there's a difference.

Also, the Urbanmech is a terrible comparison to make for the Hollander because even the-little-Urbie-that-could still at least has a backup weapon, which allows it to carry that big ballistic and still have a small laser for when it inevitably runs out of ammo (presuming it lives that long). Oh, lets not forget that the Urbie has weapons in more than one location so it's not immediately disarmed with the loss of one torso. Then it has jumping capability and 360 degree torso rotation to augment its maneuverability. The Urbanmech might have been an underdog when it was brought into MWO, but it was at least salvageable. I don't see any salvaging of the single gun Hollanders in MWO.

As a last resort, if they were to attempt to save the single gun Hollander variants by violating all precedent and putting weapon hardpoints where no weapons are on a mech, then I damn well better see some side torso energy hardpoints coming to my SDR-5V in short order. However, that opens a whole other can of worms when it comes to mech balancing and power creep; and PGI have made it pretty clear that they're not going to do it.

[TheArisen]

Odanan, on 05 July 2018 - 02:21 PM, said:

Lets see how the pack would be:

BZK-F3: 5 ballistics
BZK-G1: 2 ballistics, 2 energy
BZK-P1? (PGI-made variant): ?

Reinforcements: (45 tons, Hollander IIs)
BZK-F5: 2 ballistics, 2 energy, 1 missile
BZK-F7: 6 ballistics

So not only are you asking that it get the absolute strongest quirks in the game but also that it get two different weights within the same pack? Not only is it a pipe dream for the giga quirks but it's just never going to happen that PGI releases a mech with different tonnages. The closest thing would be two separate releases and that just leads to two wasted releases because no one will use the mech after they realize how terrible it is. Even with old Grid Iron quirks it'll be terrible because it can't carry enough ammo.

Basically, old Grid Iron offensive quirks + ammo quirks along with Urbanmech durability quirks plus a multi weight class pack is what you're asking for. This is something you put on those Santa memes where he tells you to be realistic.

[Odanan]

TheArisen, on 05 July 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

So not only are you asking that it get the absolute strongest quirks in the game but also that it get two different weights within the same pack? Not only is it a pipe dream for the giga quirks but it's just never going to happen that PGI releases a mech with different tonnages.

I don't see why not. The Arctic Wolf proved they are willing to experiment with the packs.

The Hollander is by far the most requested IS light mech for the game - so, if they want to please these costumers, they will make it happen.

I'm not saying it will be a good mech. Heck, I was always one of those who pointed out how bad the mech would be in the game. But if it was possible to make the UrbanMech a decent platform, why wouldn't the Hollander?

Edited by Odanan, 06 July 2018 - 02:58 AM.

[Adridos]

Odanan, on 06 July 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

But if it was possible to make the UrbanMech a decent platform, why wouldn't the Hollander?

That's true, but you've lso had a plethora of designss which came through and did not become decent platforms.
The issue is that when you go out with an Urbanmech, you expect nothing and are satisfied with anything. People going out in Dervishes, Uziels and what-not were in for a rude awakening and Hollander folk are going to be hit even harder.

[Ovion]

Adridos, on 06 July 2018 - 04:41 AM, said:

That's true, but you've lso had a plethora of designss which came through and did not become decent platforms.
The issue is that when you go out with an Urbanmech, you expect nothing and are satisfied with anything. People going out in Dervishes, Uziels and what-not were in for a rude awakening and Hollander folk are going to be hit even harder.

When I go out in an urbanmech I expect at least 2 kills and 500 damage.
I also expect to piss off / tie up several mechs through the game.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 06 July 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

I don't see why not. The Arctic Wolf proved they are willing to experiment with the packs.

The Hollander is by far the most requested IS light mech for the game - so, if they want to please these costumers, they will make it happen.

I'm not saying it will be a good mech. Heck, I was always one of those who pointed out how bad the mech would be in the game. But if it was possible to make the UrbanMech a decent platform, why wouldn't the Hollander?

again because on top of quirks, the Urbanmech has ultra compact hitboxes and 360 rotation, neither which will be true of any Hollander that is remotely visually accurate? Those rage tears over the Bloop Asps gun mounts? That is the nothing compared to the RT of a Hollander. The Urbie survives because of a blend of giga-quirks, and hitboxes/torso twist which makes it child's play to spread damage. How does one propose to achiever that on a Hollander?

[Marauder3D]

Hollander has nostalgia, but just won't translate that well without heavy hardpoint inflation (which goes against the flavor of one megagun on a mech) and amazing Grid Iron style quirks.

And I'm not sure it is even good nostalgia. Even though that's subjective.

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 06 July 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

The Hollander is by far the most requested IS light mech for the game

The Uziel was the most requested medium Mech, as was the Hellspawn for a time. And the Thanatos was the most requested heavy Mech.

Notice a pattern? All nostalgia driven choices, all of them suboptimal in MWO, and all of them have basically gone. Looks like people don't enjoy them.
But even back then many nostalgiacs were delusional, telling me and others how those Mechs would be decent. Some of that happened in this very thread, if you choose to remember.

And that's not even addressing the numerous problems of forum polls regarding their representativity. The Hellspawn was a rare sight even on its release day; the light weight class has as many voters as all the others although evidently fewer people actually play lights - which means a lot of Hollander votes come from people who don't really care. And so on.

Odanan, on 06 July 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

But if it was possible to make the UrbanMech a decent platform, why wouldn't the Hollander?

Nobody says it's impossible. Period.

What people say is that it is very unlikely, that the Hollander has even more problems than the Urban Mech, and that there are - brace yourself - better alternatives.

[Sereglach]

Odanan, on 06 July 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

I don't see why not. The Arctic Wolf proved they are willing to experiment with the packs.

The Hollander is by far the most requested IS light mech for the game - so, if they want to please these costumers, they will make it happen.

FLG 01, on 06 July 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

The Uziel was the most requested medium Mech, as was the Hellspawn for a time. And the Thanatos was the most requested heavy Mech.

Notice a pattern? All nostalgia driven choices, all of them suboptimal in MWO, and all of them have basically gone. Looks like people don't enjoy them.
But even back then many nostalgiacs were delusional, telling me and others how those Mechs would be decent. Some of that happened in this very thread, if you choose to remember.

And that's not even addressing the numerous problems of forum polls regarding their representativity. The Hellspawn was a rare sight even on its release day; the light weight class has as many voters as all the others although evidently fewer people actually play lights - which means a lot of Hollander votes come from people who don't really care. And so on.

Again, it's worth noting that most of that nostalgia for the 35t Hollander is misplaced. Most are remembering the nostalgia of the Hollander II in MechCommander which also had backup weapons and was a 45t medium. They're voting for a name and not even acknowledging whether or not they're voting for mech that they think it is. It is literal ignorance that many make the choice they're making.

Also, Odanon, for MWO, two mechs at two weight classes is NOTHING like the Arctic Wolf pack. The Arctic Wolf has all the same geometry, period, whether it's Omnimech or Battlemech. The Hollander and Hollander II would be two entirely different chassis with two entirely different models at two entirely different size. Volumetric scaling and Unique Hardpoint modelling make that a definite. Therefore, you're proposing making two completely different mechs and then selling them for the cost of a single mech. PGI would be complete morons to do such a thing . . . it'd cause them significant financial losses for the development costs vs. pack sales . . . especially for a pack that -like the Hellspawn- likely would not sell well at all.

Edited by Sereglach, 06 July 2018 - 07:48 AM.

[Marauder3D]

I doubt PGI is waiting until next week just to release.... the Hollander?

Thoughts?

[Sereglach]

Marauder3D, on 06 July 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

I doubt PGI is waiting until next week just to release.... the Hollander?

Thoughts?

It's a week full of US and Canadian holidays and it's prime summer vacation time, which means plenty of people probably aren't in the office most (if not all) of the week. PGI is dealing with the Mech Con tickets, end of the HG lawsuit, prepping for apparent Alpha balance PTS runs, and the beginnings of a new Solaris season.

In short, they're busy. However, it's mech packs, so I'm sure that PGI will be getting to the announcement as soon as they're ready/able to.

The pipe-dream is that they're frantically getting Alex to ready a remaining Classic concept art to announce a pack for . . . the reality is probably just that they're so busy and understaffed that they haven't gotten to an already planned announcement, yet.

[Virlutris]

Marauder3D, on 06 July 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

I doubt PGI is waiting until next week just to release.... the Hollander?

Thoughts?

Meh.

It's a holiday week. They'll get to it when they get to it.

I don't think the timing has much to do with the mech, unless ... they're getting ready to do something YUGE. Yyyyyyuuuuuuuuuuge.

They could just as easily (read: more likely) be delaying an underwhelming mech due to some workflow reason or another (like watching World Cup matches in the office or something). Only PGI knows.

[Marauder3D]

Then

Virlutris, on 06 July 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

Meh.

It's a holiday week. They'll get to it when they get to it.

I don't think the timing has much to do with the mech, unless ... they're getting ready to do something YUGE. Yyyyyyuuuuuuuuuuge.

They could just as easily (read: more likely) be delaying an underwhelming mech due to some workflow reason or another (like watching World Cup matches in the office or something). Only PGI knows.

seeing Belgium beat Brazil, though unlikely, would be amazing.

On the mech side of yuuuuuuuugge....you thinking what I'm thinking?

[Virlutris]

Marauder3D, on 06 July 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

Then

seeing Belgium beat Brazil, though unlikely, would be amazing.

On the mech side of yuuuuuuuugge....you thinking what I'm thinking?

Regarding the aforementioned match:

Spoiler

It was amazing, wasn't it?

Condolences, Odanan

Yuuuuuuge?

Tonnage-wise: Behemoth, or perhaps Imp? (edit: maybe Bane?)

Hype? Crusader or some other as-yet untapped Unseen, or a new IIC for the IS Unseens we've already gotten.

Edited by Virlutris, 06 July 2018 - 12:45 PM.

[Requiemking]

Imp would be neat, but I kinda want something like the Brigand or the Merlin.