96 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

Serial Peacemaker, on 21 December 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

No I cannot. I refuse to, figuratively, stone the woman along with you.
There is the literal word of the law and there is the spirit of the law. In this case, the laws are meant to provide us all with a fun, equal way to play the game.
I would also like to point you to this section of the code of conduct under griefing:

• Persistent non-participation in core game mechanics.

If you have hidden then shut down and are not on the way to a conquest victory, then you are no longer participating in the core game mechanic. In CW, I admit that you may still be contributing to your faction's victory by powering down. However in normal queues, this cheese is "against the rules" which you hold so holy.

Awesome, except when asked for clarification as to what "non-participation" was PGI told us that it means they didn't do damage or in any other way add to the match. Not that they had to continue to constantly add value to the match. So....

[Egomane]

Serial Peacemaker, on 21 December 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

No I cannot. I refuse to, figuratively, stone the woman along with you.
There is the literal word of the law and there is the spirit of the law. In this case, the laws are meant to provide us all with a fun, equal way to play the game.
I would also like to point you to this section of the code of conduct under griefing:

• Persistent non-participation in core game mechanics.

If you have hidden then shut down and are not on the way to a conquest victory, then you are no longer participating in the core game mechanic. In CW, I admit that you may still be contributing to your faction's victory by powering down. However in normal queues, this cheese is "against the rules" which you hold so holy.

"No longer" is not the same as "not at all"! Realize and think about the difference.

And it is still not your place to punish a player for it. Contact support or do nothing at all. That's the choices you have. Everything else is breaking the rules from your side and the ethics for this game have been provided by PGI in form of the code of conduct and the griefing rules. Your ethic has no place here.

[Dirty Starfish]

Mercules, on 21 December 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Awesome, except when asked for clarification as to what "non-participation" was PGI told us that it means they didn't do damage or in any other way add to the match. Not that they had to continue to constantly add value to the match. So....

I keep hearing this and yet nobody has posted the original source. Would you be so kind as to find it?

[Averen]

Wow, a guy whole let his whole team die and draws out the match, and then compares it with real life ethics.

It should be perfectly obvious to a decent human being: Nobody is entitled to waste others time for the tiny chance of getting some super-rare comeback to happen.

Retreating and parallely trying to fight enemies with long range weapos? A slow paced fight is completely acceptable.
Everything including running away to survive, or powering down for a minute is just egoistic and toxic behaviour. This game isn't some one man show for you, but a team-game.
You are actively taking away from the enjoyment of up to 23 people. I should even need tell you why that's a bad thing.

Edited by Averen, 21 December 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[Eboli]

In CW I can understand that keeping 12 players of a faction in the field is a valid tactic in order to assist other players get ghost drops done. CW is a strategic long term form of gameplay and ALL drops count towards success and failure of this game form for factions.

In skirmish, assault and conquest a player I will only report to the opposing team the position of a friendly if they are a obvious disconnect/afk from the start of the game. If they have been active at all throughout the game it is not my right to report their position to the enemy. It is my right to report them to PGI to decide any action if required.

Personally I have never shut down just to be a douche and troll the other team but it is player choice. If I am in a mech that can no longer CONTRIBUTE in battle then I have run out of bounds instead if I don't want to give my kill to the enemy - usually telling enemy my intention as well as a gg? I don't care about about k/d.

Yes, waiting around for the game to end may not be to your liking but you can always disconnect and get into another mech of yours.

In the end everyone plays the game differently and you should not enforce your standards of play/expectations on how another person plays as long as it is in the rules that PGI has chosen.

Cheers Eboli.

[Mercules]

Serial Peacemaker, on 21 December 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

I keep hearing this and yet nobody has posted the original source. Would you be so kind as to find it?

No.

Follow the rules. Don't try to find loopholes to do what you want. Onus is on the person tying for a loophole to find them, not the person following the rules.

[Mudhutwarrior]

We resorted to insulting other players now. I question who the real 12 year olds are.

[Desdain]

Serial Peacemaker, on 21 December 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

[Redacted]

http://mwomercs.com/...ploitsgriefing/

Edited by John Wolf, 21 December 2014 - 06:29 PM.
Moderated Quote

[occusoj]

Even though statspadders are bad and should be insta-banned when shutting down for the sole purpose of keeping their kdr up, why not just disconnect and go to the next match?

Is the big drama all about one mech beeing locked?

If PGI doesnt mind statspadding, so be it. Their descission. Dont like it? Dont give them money, dont play their game.

Question on the rules:
Shutdown and hide seems to be legal once I have launched the game with the intent to play and participated in the game. How about participating in a game and disconnecting when realizing your team is behind 6-0 and will get stomped 12-1 or worse?
Would it be legal to power down somewhere in that situation?

[Dirty Starfish]

Thanks Desdain.
"the risk that this could be used against an active participant of the match to deny them the use of cover and movement makes this a form of a griefing"

Note: ACTIVE PARTICIPANT. Sitting in a corner powered down is not actively participating. Yes, by the letter of the law what I suggest is treason, but by the spirit of the law I am doing nothing wrong.

The drama here is about the victorious enemy team being forced to waste time looking for the last man when everybody could have moved on and be playing another match. Sure the spectators can disconnect, but the victors should not be griefed into rage quitting like this.

Edited by Serial Peacemaker, 21 December 2014 - 02:06 PM.

[Khobai]

Its only a problem in Skirmish. If you dont like it play a gamemode with an alternate win condition like Assault or Conquest.

[Desdain]

I think you have to give the benefit of the doubt. It's possible that someone is legitimately disconnected and may reconnect. It's hard to prove the intent of a DC.

Team treason is another matter. This is probably why it is worded as it is. You are not allowed ever to give out your team's positions.

Serial Peacemaker, on 21 December 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Thanks Desdain.
"the risk that this could be used against an active participant of the match to deny them the use of cover and movement makes this a form of a griefing"

Note: ACTIVE PARTICIPANT. Sitting in a corner powered down is not actively participating. Yes, by the letter of the law what I suggest is treason, but by the spirit of the law I am doing nothing wrong.

The drama here is about the victorious enemy team being forced to waste time looking for the last man when everybody could have moved on and be playing another match. Sure the spectators can disconnect, but the victors should not be griefed into rage quitting like this.

The rule explicitly mentions an AFK team member:

PGI said:

Team Treason
Treasonous provision of information to enemy combatants, also known as "bird-doging" is forbidden. This involves a player using the in-game chat to provide the enemy team with the locations of their own team mates. While we appreciate that some players may wish to have a round end early by calling out the location of an AFK team-mate, the risk that this could be used against an active participant of the match to deny them the use of cover and movement makes this a form of a griefing. You may declare a teammate AFK but not their coordinates or position.

You are not allowed to give out their position. It really can't be any plainer.

[Mercules]

Serial Peacemaker, on 21 December 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Thanks Desdain.
"the risk that this could be used against an active participant of the match to deny them the use of cover and movement makes this a form of a griefing"

Note: ACTIVE PARTICIPANT. Sitting in a corner powered down is not actively participating. Yes, by the letter of the law what I suggest is treason, but by the spirit of the law I am doing nothing wrong.

The drama here is about the victorious enemy team being forced to waste time looking for the last man when everybody could have moved on and be playing another match. Sure the spectators can disconnect, but the victors should not be griefed into rage quitting like this.

Except it's the letter of the law that gets enforced because that is how law typically works.

The other issue is that on multiple occasions someone will shut down till a mech passes, person reports their location, mech turns and spots them and they get blown up before we can even SEE what their intent was. I've had it happen to me where I ran to split them up and was letting a backcored Atlas with yellow front armor pass me by and had a teammate report they had seen said Atlas in my screen. At that point the nice clean backshot I might have had was gone.

You can GUESS at my intent, but you can't know it and most of the time I don't have time to be typing in my explanation while still in the match.

It says "Don't do it." so you simply "Don't do it." If you think I am breaking a different part of the code you are not PGI staff so your job is to report me and let them deal with it. Got it?

[Dirty Starfish]

Desdain, on 21 December 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

I think you have to give the benefit of the doubt. It's possible that someone is legitimately disconnected and may reconnect. It's hard to prove the intent of a DC.

Team treason is another matter. This is probably why it is worded as it is. You are not allowed ever to give out your team's positions.



The rule explicitly mentions an AFK team member:



You are not allowed to give out their position. It really can't be any plainer.

You can tell when a player is disconnected by pressing tab. As to afk, I normally wait a minute. If they aren't back by then and are UNRESPONSIVE TO CHAT, then I report their location as they are obviously no longer playing. As long as the hiding player says that he is still fighting and not just hiding, then I will not report. Mercules it sounds like the guy who you encountered did none of these things AND THUS WAS IN THE WRONG.

Edited by Serial Peacemaker, 21 December 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Mercules]

Serial Peacemaker, on 21 December 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

You can tell when a player is disconnected by pressing tab. As to afk, I normally wait a minute. If they aren't back by then and are UNRESPONSIVE TO CHAT, then I report their location as they are obviously no longer playing. As long as the hiding player says that he is still fighting and not just hiding, then I will not report. Mercules it sounds like the guy who you encountered did none of these things AND THUS WAS IN THE WRONG.

Yes, and the reason why I am discussing this with you is that people see posts similar to your previous ones and interpret it to mean they can report my location if I am not actively running at the enemy firing all weapons. I've had people call out my positions updating it as I pass into new sections of the map because "You have no hope of winning just get it over with."

While I realize I have no hope of beating 8 mechs in my slightly damaged Locust/Command/Firestarter/Raven I do have hope of maybe taking one or even 2 of them with me. That might earn the other player an assist as well.

Yes I know they could drop in a new match and earn more than that assist much faster, but they are dead. Their match is over and they need to let me play mine which is still going on no matter how hopeless it is.

I believe the reason the rule states, "Don't do this." instead of "Don't do this unless X=Y." is so that we don't have people deciding it has met the criteria or pushing that line and doing it then getting in trouble. "Don't do it." is just really simple. You don't even have to consider if you should or shouldn't, you just don't.

Edited by Mercules, 21 December 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[Dirty Starfish]

Then why don't you follow your own suggestion and report them.

There will always be a few bad eggs but if the rules are changed to state something like:

Players are allowed to report the location of the last man IF
: last man standing is shut down
: last man standing is unresponsive to comms
: last man standing has not moved in more than one minute
: Gametype is skirmish
: Gametype is conquest and enemy team is in the lead with points and nodes

then you can have your specificity and the rest of us can have the luxury of not wasting time in a hunt for the *******.

If the rules are not changed, you shut-downers still have the option of calling support and getting a satisfying resolution.
The rest of us can use our common sense and tell or not tell the enemy team the location of the shutdown player contingent on game conditions, as we have no other means of getting a satisfying resolution.

Edited by Serial Peacemaker, 21 December 2014 - 03:34 PM.

[Kampfer]

I've powered down to hide from people and then jumped them from behind, but I was reported to the enemy for "trolling"
then reported to the Game Masters

So, no, never report powered down people, they might be hiding from the Atlas so they can finish off the Hunchback.

You don't know what someone is doing and you therefor have no right to announce their position.

[Kjudoon]

Kampfer, they're bored now. They don't care about yoru strategy or attempts for victory or anything above their immediate pleasure at that very second. Even if your actions have drawn out the enemy because a few others of your team were smart to draw them out then rush the base once it's undefended, or to give you the chance for a fair fight, OR to get around them yourself and take out the generators because your light can leave those fatlases in the dust.

This whole whine thread is all about them, their narcissistic pleasure and their desire to get the win without working for it because someone is thwarting my power by not dying on schedule.

Oh, and as a quick note to those who might not catch on... A nickle's worth of free advice. Don't argue with the mod. Egomane, if I have been wrong in my understanding of the official PGI stance on hiding, please post a correction. I stick with the rules on this, and so far, the rules have been in the position I have stated and taken. Thanks!

Edited by Kjudoon, 21 December 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[Peter2000]

Kjudoon, on 20 December 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

.

Actually team treason is the more flagrant foul. I got legged by a teammate because my goal was to run the clock out and said so after 3 brutally destroyed waves. It was my teams goal the entire time to stop planet snipers. We could not reverse a win so we kept them on the field. Got a nice video of the team traitor doing it too. It was reported, just like people who ghost non discos... the ONLY valid reason for reporting location of a teammate. People need to grow up and demand stuff being handed to them like they're owed.

Three words: "Failure to Engage"

[occusoj]

Quote

Don't argue with the mod.

Quick fact-check: He isnt one.

Are statspadders narcissistic in your opinion?