1236 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

ArchSight, on 07 January 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

I've been thoroughly testing out many load outs for the summoner and putting them through battle or in my head. So far to me as well, most advantages of the summoner are coming up to be mediocre to other mechs it has to fight against.


True, boating large energy weapons or many small ones is not good for the summoner. The Quirk to increase the Fire Rate of energy weapons without any quirks to help dissipate the faster heat generation is not helpful unless only mounting one Large energy weapon. Two cool down reduction Quirks allow it to lower the heat generation by using ballistics with energy though.

Dueling C-LBX5 or C-Ultra AC 5 with cool down reducing modules for them with the Quirked -CD prime ballistic Arm equipped reduces their cool down to 1.45 instead of 1.66. That's a good buff for 5's because it removes the fire rate nerf on the 5's from 1.5 to 1.66 except for the C-AC5's because they have 1.8 fire rate for some unknown reason. Doubling down on cool down reduction currently can't be done with C-Ultra AC2's and C-AC2's but can be done with C-LBX2's because C-LBX2's has a cool down reduction module and the other two don't.

Missile wise you already know what I came up with the LRM jumper narc loadout. I've even lowered armor to fit artemis ones but it's lack of weapons to fight off rushers forced me to drop the loadout. Not great for CW matches due to the Maps inclosed area's knocking JJ mech's off mountain top's and vs teams that use rush tactics. It was mostly because of the sulfur map.

The weapon quirks have a disconnect with the tactic of Pop tarting. It won't be possible for a player to fire a second shot after pop tarting without falling a great distance or using a extreme rate of fire. The extreme rate of fire clan ballistic's have is easily spread out instead of being pin point to effiecently kill a mech that is also shooting 30 damage PP FLD strikes. This makes it a under dog to IS jump sniper's and Shadow Hawks.

Thats why im pushing for a Summoner Prime to get E-side torsos(cant be that hard to model/skin) 3erppc, 2 of which would be in those nice high torso spots, would give Prime a nice role as a decent poptarter. Maybe the Clane Premier FLPPD?
Quirk similar(but not as much) as the Thud 9S.

Energy variant should get nice heat and DURATION buffs.

If the Summoner is gonna be the quick striker in relation to the Timby brawler, it needs far less face time.

Missile variant can get by with generic missile quirks.
I am curious about jump-LuRMing in CW to pop generators from odd angles.
Would 360 target retention help?

[Bishop Steiner]

InspectorG, on 08 January 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

Thats why im pushing for a Summoner Prime to get E-side torsos(cant be that hard to model/skin) 3erppc, 2 of which would be in those nice high torso spots, would give Prime a nice role as a decent poptarter. Maybe the Clane Premier FLPPD?
Quirk similar(but not as much) as the Thud 9S.

Energy variant should get nice heat and DURATION buffs.

If the Summoner is gonna be the quick striker in relation to the Timby brawler, it needs far less face time.

Missile variant can get by with generic missile quirks.
I am curious about jump-LuRMing in CW to pop generators from odd angles.
Would 360 target retention help?

would love to see a Summoner actually semi effective running variants of it's prime build, myself, instead of energyvomit or missile spam. Got every other clan mech for that. Summoners should pack a big frikking gun.

And yeah, I'm that guy who keep sit in the arm.

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Summoners should pack a big frikking gun.

And yeah, I'm that guy who keep sit in the arm.

*snicker* So, you,... like the Wang? *snicker*

[Bishop Steiner]

InspectorG, on 08 January 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

*snicker* So, you,... like the Wang? *snicker*

dang straight. I keep a 4/1 KDr with my Wang (both of them...hey-oh!). My Wang is deadly. You DON'T want to play with my Wang.

[Xythius]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

would love to see a Summoner actually semi effective running variants of it's prime build, myself, instead of energyvomit or missile spam. Got every other clan mech for that. Summoners should pack a big frikking gun.

And yeah, I'm that guy who keep sit in the arm.

Me too. The only hardpoint filled in the torso on my prime is the SRM6. I just wish I could fit an LB20X in that bad boy with any kind of real ammo reserve.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xythius, on 08 January 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

Me too. The only hardpoint filled in the torso on my prime is the SRM6. I just wish I could fit an LB20X in that bad boy with any kind of real ammo reserve.

I Know what I would love? If we went with some of the wall quirks, something like a 40-50% cooldown for SSRMs. With only the one torso missile hardpoint, it's really near useless to use SSRMS or SRMs on it, because the 6 spreads too much (even with artemis, which eats another ton) and the 4 is just not enough juice by itself. SSRM4-6 take too long to reload with a solo launcher. SO you are pretty much forced to use an LRM15, or drop the missiles, as the 5-10 just are not effective, solo, and the 20 is too heavy, and spreads too much anyhow.

But if I could slap an SSRM6 on, with a 2.5-3 second cooldown? It would free up a ton and half (only really needs 1 ton ammo) for ammo or armor. And with a single launcher it's not such a big part of the armament to merit BAP. Especially if one has sufficient LB-X ammo for blasting lights (and even more so if that LB-X has the CN9-Ds fire rate)

Alternately, if the Summoner Prime just got tighter groupings form missiles period.........


But I freely admit, that's just my biased wishes for the builds I like, lol.

Conversely......anyone ever wonder why Clan Artemis is identical to IS? Always wondered why with all their tech they didn't get .5 ton artemis units. TAG, well, it's meant for artillery, which the clans despise, so I get it not getting any real R&D, but artemis? Considering the wonders of Clan TCs and such? Always seemed like an odd oversight.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 January 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Kain Demos]

I didn't read all 31 pages but from some of the discussion it seems someone dared to suggest what I have suggested in the past--unlocking engines (on a limited basis), Endo, and FF for clams.

If the engine unlocks are left like they should have been where it is only in multiples of your 'mechs tonnage this system can't fail. All of the "strong 'mechs" are pretty much optimized and would gain nothing from this while 'mechs like the Nova, Summoner, Gargoyle would see drastic improvements. I think if you go to an XL300 and add Endo to a Nova you only have 1/2 ton less pod space and now move at Stormcrow speed--who wouldn't want that?

I think the main argument before was "NO--WE DON"T NEED NO XL400 + Endo DIREWOLF BREAKING THE GAME"

Well first, I don't think an XL400 + ES DW would be a big deal. It would have less slots to use that tonnage. Second, a cap of 350 can be put on the rating (like the Atlas) effectively preventing an upgrade if the butthurt is really that strong from the *****&wine crew.

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

Conversely......anyone ever wonder why Clan Artemis is identical to IS? Always wondered why with all their tech they didn't get .5 ton artemis units. TAG, well, it's meant for artillery, which the clans despise, so I get it not getting any real R&D, but artemis? Considering the wonders of Clan TCs and such? Always seemed like an odd oversight.

My main question for TAG is why on Terra is it in the visible spectrum?!?!

We moved to IR lasers for a reason in the 20th century.

Edited by Kain Thul, 08 January 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kain Thul, on 08 January 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

I didn't read all 31 pages but from some of the discussion it seems someone dared to suggest what I have suggested in the past--unlocking engines (on a limited basis), Endo, and FF for clams.

If the engine unlocks are left like they should have been where it is only in multiples of your 'mechs tonnage this system can't fail. All of the "strong 'mechs" are pretty much optimized and would gain nothing from this while 'mechs like the Nova, Summoner, Gargoyle would see drastic improvements. I think if you go to an XL300 and add Endo to a Nova you only have 1/2 ton less pod space and now move at Stormcrow speed--who wouldn't want that?

I think the main argument before was "NO--WE DON"T NEED NO XL400 + Endo DIREWOLF BREAKING THE GAME"

Well first, I don't think an XL400 + ES DW would be a big deal. It would have less slots to use that tonnage. Second, a cap of 350 can be put on the rating (like the Atlas) effectively preventing an upgrade if the butthurt is really that strong from the *****&wine crew.

Eh, I think the Engine unlock is a step we don't need to level the field. Even the Endo, I only begrudgingly admit to, and that's just because it really doesn't do anything to boost the UnHoly Trinity, just the rest of the sub optimal mechs. But a TW with a clan 300xl? No thank you sir, no thank you, lol.

Kain Thul, on 08 January 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

I didn't read all 31 pages but from some of the discussion it seems someone dared to suggest what I have suggested in the past--unlocking engines (on a limited basis), Endo, and FF for clams.

If the engine unlocks are left like they should have been where it is only in multiples of your 'mechs tonnage this system can't fail. All of the "strong 'mechs" are pretty much optimized and would gain nothing from this while 'mechs like the Nova, Summoner, Gargoyle would see drastic improvements. I think if you go to an XL300 and add Endo to a Nova you only have 1/2 ton less pod space and now move at Stormcrow speed--who wouldn't want that?

I think the main argument before was "NO--WE DON"T NEED NO XL400 + Endo DIREWOLF BREAKING THE GAME"

Well first, I don't think an XL400 + ES DW would be a big deal. It would have less slots to use that tonnage. Second, a cap of 350 can be put on the rating (like the Atlas) effectively preventing an upgrade if the butthurt is really that strong from the *****&wine crew.




My main question for TAG is why on Terra is it in the visible spectrum?!?!

We moved to IR lasers for a reason in the 20th century.

same reason any lasers are visible in video games? Looks cooler?

[Kain Demos]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Eh, I think the Engine unlock is a step we don't need to level the field. Even the Endo, I only begrudgingly admit to, and that's just because it really doesn't do anything to boost the UnHoly Trinity, just the rest of the sub optimal mechs. But a TW with a clan 300xl? No thank you sir, no thank you, lol.

Everyone that suggests nerfs to the Timberwolf generally wants speed/mobility nerfs to "bring it in line". Their reasoning is that a 'mech shouldn't have speed/agiilty, firepower, and survivability.

Going down to an XL300 would take away that "unnatural speed/agility for a 75 ton 'mech" everyone seems to complain about. Sure you can pack on more firepower (essentially a Night Gyr at that point) but I don't think it would be "better" than the XL375 version.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Eh, I think the Engine unlock is a step we don't need to level the field. Even the Endo, I only begrudgingly admit to, and that's just because it really doesn't do anything to boost the UnHoly Trinity, just the rest of the sub optimal mechs. But a TW with a clan 300xl? No thank you sir, no thank you, lol.

The Night Gyr already fulfills that role in 3052.



It's some pretty scary ****. 75 tonner with 38 tons of pod space? God help us all.

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

same reason any lasers are visible in video games? Looks cooler?

Edited by FupDup, 08 January 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Completely separate topic but I think it would be cool if TAG was IR and thus could only be seen in the alternate vision modes. I know more people would probably take it then also--usually when a light tries to be sneaky and light up targets the source of that beam gets focused hard.

[Shabahh Kerensky]

This is why I wish we could free up even just 2 jump jets on the summoner. I love the summoner prime stock, I just want to not moderate my ammo so much.

[Scout Derek]

Hey, Summoners Ain't going to change... for now.

[Brody319]

I think if PGI isn't going to let us remove the JJs. they need to make the JJs 0.5 tons instead of 1 ton they currently are. Not sure why Clan jump jets are 1 ton, but the IS versions are only half a ton. Specially since they are the same power.

[FupDup]

Brody319, on 08 January 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

I think if PGI isn't going to let us remove the JJs. they need to make the JJs 0.5 tons instead of 1 ton they currently are. Not sure why Clan jump jets are 1 ton, but the IS versions are only half a ton. Specially since they are the same power.

IS JJs on heavies and low-end assaults are 1 ton. You're thinking of mediums and lights.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 08 January 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

IS JJs on heavies and low-end assaults are 1 ton. You're thinking of mediums and lights.

Still, not a terrible idea. It gains 2.5 tons, and if it swapped the Ferro for Endo (same slots) it would save another ton and a half. (Endo saves 3.5, Ferro saves 2)

So, 4 more tons to play with isn't insignificant for this mech.

[kapusta11]

Kain Thul, on 08 January 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

Everyone that suggests nerfs to the Timberwolf generally wants speed/mobility nerfs to "bring it in line". Their reasoning is that a 'mech shouldn't have speed/agiilty, firepower, and survivability.

Going down to an XL300 would take away that "unnatural speed/agility for a 75 ton 'mech" everyone seems to complain about. Sure you can pack on more firepower (essentially a Night Gyr at that point) but I don't think it would be "better" than the XL375 version.

Dual Gauss (30 pts long range no heat FLD, say hi TDR 9S!) 75 tonner + Clan XL engine + 4x ERML (28 backup hitscan DOT) + 4JJs doesn't look better? Okay.

Edited by kapusta11, 08 January 2015 - 09:56 AM.

[Kain Demos]

kapusta11, on 08 January 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Dual Gauss (30 pts long range no heat FLD, say hi TDR 9S!) 75 tonner + Clan XL engine + 4x ERML (28 backup hitscan DOT) + 4JJs doesn't look better? Okay.

Not to me. More firepower, yes but nearly 20kph less speed, slower turning, yawing, etc. I don't run JJs on my TBRs and the way PGI is doing it that means I would be stuck with them on the Night Gyr.

[Kuritaclan]

kapusta11, on 08 January 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Dual Gauss (30 pts long range no heat FLD, say hi TDR 9S!) 75 tonner + Clan XL engine + 4x ERML (28 backup hitscan DOT) + 4JJs doesn't look better? Okay.

Hell i would like to run such a build. As it stands dual gauss is no option for clans untill you are in DWF. I think tears would rain on IS side if we had a hbr running dual gauss or smn doing so and ofc TBRs. Since is can do it with a 65 ton mech using xls and and get killed fast for this kind of play, on clan side it would be devastating.

Kain Thul, on 08 January 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Not to me. More firepower, yes but nearly 20kph less speed, slower turning, yawing, etc. I don't run JJs on my TBRs and the way PGI is doing it that means I would be stuck with them on the Night Gyr.

I do not need the 20kph when i can damage @ a mile away everything heavly without overheating using lls/ppcs and than go clean up on 400 to 500m. Gauss is a damn good thing on clan mechs, since it is so heat efficient/has no splash or crazy long durations and you get 30rounds of ammo for the same weight it cost the IS Players having no downsides but a pretty great upside utilize it with the hot E/M wepons on clan mechs.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 08 January 2015 - 10:23 AM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

would love to see a Summoner actually semi effective running variants of it's prime build, myself, instead of energyvomit or missile spam. Got every other clan mech for that. Summoners should pack a big frikking gun.

And yeah, I'm that guy who keep sit in the arm.

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

dang straight. I keep a 4/1 KDr with my Wang (both of them...hey-oh!). My Wang is deadly. You DON'T want to play with my Wang.

I'm not trying to poke at you because I think we are on the same page at this point with the Summoner.

To be fair, the Summoner can take one big freaking gun. The trouble is when you try to load 2 big freaking guns plus more stuff (read: missiles).



Otherwise the Summoner can run

Gauss + CERPPC
LB20 + CERPPC (While not a great build, this is actually pretty fun if you can get into brawl ranges)
LB 10 + CERPPC
2x CERPPC (This build would be amazing if the damned thing had high Torso E mounts - because the Summoner jumps like a champ at the moment)




I like the halfweight JJ idea for SMN & NVA, I even championed it early on.

2.5 tons, but the mech gets to keep all of its crit slots and the devs don't have to touch the locked endo/ferro hot button issue.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 January 2015 - 10:20 AM.