1236 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Dunno, I always felt the Mad Dog was an evolution of the Catapult, just along a different path than the Timberwolf. The Mad Dog basically being a refinement of the missile boat Catapult, designed to fill the same role but more efficiently (a very Clan way to go) while the Timberwolf was an evolution along a different line entirely.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 10 January 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

Dunno, I always felt the Mad Dog was an evolution of the Catapult, just along a different path than the Timberwolf. The Mad Dog basically being a refinement of the missile boat Catapult, designed to fill the same role but more efficiently (a very Clan way to go) while the Timberwolf was an evolution along a different line entirely.

we're mostly talking visuals here.

take the torso of an archers, and "kate moss" it and you get something very close to the vulture.

[YueFei]

Nightshade24, on 10 January 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

DPS is quite important in brawling situations and some snipping situations...

DPS is the main reason the thunderbolt is superior to the warhawk, direwolf, awesome, or atlas PPC / ER PPC builds.

No, I should clarify. Sustained DPS is not the be-all and end-all of stats.

DPS-until-enemy-is-dead-or-crippled is the most important factor in brawling and in fire-support.

Of course silly things like a 6 PPC Stalker has ridiculous burst damage, but he can't sustain it until the enemy is dead. Even before Ghost Heat, those things couldn't sustain their fire long enough to drop the enemy reliably.

Burst damage that you can sustain until the enemy is dropped or disarmed is the key.

My HBK-4SP has atrocious heat efficiency. Its sustained DPS looks like garbage. Doesn't matter. The burst-damage it has is enough to cripple even an Assault mech if I'm doing close-range fire support for a friendly assault that's tanking the enemy. In a little over 5 seconds it dishes out over 150 damage, and with a coolant flush it can dish out some more after that before redlining on heat. It absolutely demands respect from the enemy team, even to the point where it probably makes sense for them to swap targets and kill my squishy DPS robot.

That Summoner build that looks like it has the same indefinitely-sustained-DPS as my HBK-4SP? It isn't going to dish out 150 damage in 5 seconds. It's gonna trickle out a LRM15 salvo, drop 25 damage from PPC+LB10-X, and then a few seconds later, repeat. In 5 seconds he'll be able to push out about 80 damage, of which 30 of that is from LRMs which a stream-fired, not launched in a single salvo, and 20 of which is spread damage from LB10-X, and another 10 of which is from Clan ERPPC splash.

Come on, let's have the Summoner actually live up to its Inner Sphere designation of "Thor". Quirk the hell out of that ERPPC in terms of heat and fire rate. Hell, quirk up all its weapons for rate-of-fire.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Summoner's biggest problem in MWO, is its low arms, and the lack of any torso energy hardpoint.

If it had even 1 torso energy point up high like you can do with the ballistic point on there, you wouldn't have to invest in costly ballistics, or play a LRM boat and pray that somebody will spot targets for you.

Those arms clip into every damn thing, so they're only useful on flat terrain in a brawl.

[Tahribator]

Mister D, on 11 January 2015 - 03:58 AM, said:

Summoner's biggest problem in MWO, is its low arms, and the lack of any torso energy hardpoint.

If it had even 1 torso energy point up high like you can do with the ballistic point on there, you wouldn't have to invest in costly ballistics, or play a LRM boat and pray that somebody will spot targets for you.

Those arms clip into every damn thing, so they're only useful on flat terrain in a brawl.

If it had nipple energy hardpoints instead of ballistics, we wouldn't have this thread IMO. It could do the magical 2xLPL and 4xML combo and everybody would be happy.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister D, on 11 January 2015 - 03:58 AM, said:

Summoner's biggest problem in MWO, is its low arms, and the lack of any torso energy hardpoint.



If it had even 1 torso energy point up high like you can do with the ballistic point on there, you wouldn't have to invest in costly ballistics, or play a LRM boat and pray that somebody will spot targets for you.



Those arms clip into every damn thing, so they're only useful on flat terrain in a brawl.

Tahribator, on 11 January 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

If it had nipple energy hardpoints instead of ballistics, we wouldn't have this thread IMO. It could do the magical 2xLPL and 4xML combo and everybody would be happy.

not true.


Some of us are tired of having to run laser vomit on everything clan.

Summoner? Supposed to be cool running. Supposed to be good with ballistics and PPCs.

I'm gunna be a grump until it is.

Also am SOOOOO dang tired of everything having to be a peek or poptart sniper in peoples thinking.

It has good speed and mobility, at spreads damage very well. Believe it or not, some mechs that can brawl and skirmish would be very nice.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 January 2015 - 06:24 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

YueFei, on 11 January 2015 - 01:07 AM, said:

No, I should clarify. Sustained DPS is not the be-all and end-all of stats.

DPS-until-enemy-is-dead-or-crippled is the most important factor in brawling and in fire-support.

Of course silly things like a 6 PPC Stalker has ridiculous burst damage, but he can't sustain it until the enemy is dead. Even before Ghost Heat, those things couldn't sustain their fire long enough to drop the enemy reliably.

Burst damage that you can sustain until the enemy is dropped or disarmed is the key.

My HBK-4SP has atrocious heat efficiency. Its sustained DPS looks like garbage. Doesn't matter. The burst-damage it has is enough to cripple even an Assault mech if I'm doing close-range fire support for a friendly assault that's tanking the enemy. In a little over 5 seconds it dishes out over 150 damage, and with a coolant flush it can dish out some more after that before redlining on heat. It absolutely demands respect from the enemy team, even to the point where it probably makes sense for them to swap targets and kill my squishy DPS robot.

That Summoner build that looks like it has the same indefinitely-sustained-DPS as my HBK-4SP? It isn't going to dish out 150 damage in 5 seconds. It's gonna trickle out a LRM15 salvo, drop 25 damage from PPC+LB10-X, and then a few seconds later, repeat. In 5 seconds he'll be able to push out about 80 damage, of which 30 of that is from LRMs which a stream-fired, not launched in a single salvo, and 20 of which is spread damage from LB10-X, and another 10 of which is from Clan ERPPC splash.

Come on, let's have the Summoner actually live up to its Inner Sphere designation of "Thor". Quirk the hell out of that ERPPC in terms of heat and fire rate. Hell, quirk up all its weapons for rate-of-fire.

Well, on my other thread I believe my breakdown was

Unlock Endo for Omnis that don't have it (but with locked predetermined crits)

and for the Prime:
- 20% Cooldown on Ballistics (Whole chassis)
- 20% Cooldown on LB-10X (LA only)
- 15% Heat Reduction on Energy (Chassis)
- 15% Heat Reduction on C-ERPPC (RA only)
- 25% Projectile Speed boost (Chassis) or a Cooldown on the PPC (RA)

Summoner Bravo:
- 25% Projectile Speed Missiles (Chassis)
- 20% Cooldown Missiles (Chassis)
- 20% Cooldown LRM20s (Arms)
- 15% Range Missiles (Chassis)
- 30% Target Lock Speed Missiles (Chassis)


Summoner Delta:
- 20% Heat Reduction Energy (Chassis)
- 20% Heat Reduction ER Large Lasers (RA/LA)
- 20% Heat Reduction ER Mlasers (RA/LA)
- -40% beam duration All Lasers (Chassis)
- 20% Cool Down Energy (chassis)


Note that I listed the "generic" quirks as tied to the chassis, but the specific weapon quirks tot eh pods that come with them.
IMO; Clan MEchs basic quirks should be by the variant, but any swapped pods LOSE their special quirks, so that one can take the LB-X pod from the Prime and put it on a Delta, but it only gets whatever base chassis bonuses the Delta gets with that weapon, then.

[Bishop Steiner]

Or possibly, with careful design of the quirks (aka, NOT like the Thunderbolt 9s design) the Pods could retain their specific quirks, since on many chassis they would not stack, or be very limited, unlike taking the quirks based on a single RA ERPPC and slapping 3-4 in the torso.



After all, in my example, the Summoner Primes ER PPC would be the same effectiveness on the Delta, but only in the RA. And would only get half the total bonus on the Bravo, as it has no base Energy bonus quirks. Ditto the LB-X LA which would only be of any benefit if it had the LB-X on any other chassis. Whereas you could take the double energy arm from the Delta and slap it on the prime, and you would not get to magically get 40% cooling on 2 er ppc....only 20%

[Chagatay]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 January 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

Well, on my other thread I believe my breakdown was

Unlock Endo for Omnis that don't have it (but with locked predetermined crits)

and for the Prime:
- 20% Cooldown on Ballistics (Whole chassis)
- 20% Cooldown on LB-10X (LA only)
- 15% Heat Reduction on Energy (Chassis)
- 15% Heat Reduction on C-ERPPC (RA only)
- 25% Projectile Speed boost (Chassis) or a Cooldown on the PPC (RA)

Summoner Bravo:
- 25% Projectile Speed Missiles (Chassis)
- 20% Cooldown Missiles (Chassis)
- 20% Cooldown LRM20s (Arms)
- 15% Range Missiles (Chassis)
- 30% Target Lock Speed Missiles (Chassis)


Summoner Delta:
- 20% Heat Reduction Energy (Chassis)
- 20% Heat Reduction ER Large Lasers (RA/LA)
- 20% Heat Reduction ER Mlasers (RA/LA)
- -40% beam duration All Lasers (Chassis)
- 20% Cool Down Energy (chassis)


Note that I listed the "generic" quirks as tied to the chassis, but the specific weapon quirks tot eh pods that come with them.
IMO; Clan MEchs basic quirks should be by the variant, but any swapped pods LOSE their special quirks, so that one can take the LB-X pod from the Prime and put it on a Delta, but it only gets whatever base chassis bonuses the Delta gets with that weapon, then.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.....Lets not get crazy. It doesn't need the Thud treatment to get used*. A few quirks would be nice though.

*I still use them to smash heads in. A ASRM6x5 jumpy kamikaze pain in the arse slugthrower is among the most dangerous mechs out there. Underestimate at your own peril.

Edited by Chagatay, 11 January 2015 - 08:11 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Chagatay, on 11 January 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.....Lets not get crazy. It doesn't need the Thud treatment to get used*. A few quirks would be nice though.

*I still use them to smash heads in. A ASRM6x5 jumpy kamikaze pain in the arse slugthrower is among the most dangerous mechs out there. Underestimate at your own peril.

relook at what I said, then compare them to available hard points.

For instance, the ER PPC? Is still 10% hotter than the THUDs....and it can only mount ONE of them (And that one is stuck in a low slung arm, not able to be tossed in uber high torso mounts). Mount the Delta Arm, you only get the base 20% which for 2 ER PPC, helps some, but is nowhere near TDR-9S level.

The same goes with any combination you look at on those suggestions.

The Delta? Can only mount 4 lasers max. And 4 ER Larges will still be too hot, overall. It could be decent with 4 MPL, but that is a Light to Medium Mech's armament.

In no situation does it's quirks actually match any of the more excessive IS ones, like the DRG-1N, Pretty Baby, LCT-1V (which needs it) or the TDRs.

As for the 5x aSRM6? It's ok for ambushes, but it's hot, ammo inefficient, had horrible range, and while the damage looks impressive, it's spread all over the place. One can't ignore it, but it's not hard to counter, either.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 January 2015 - 08:21 AM.

[Chagatay]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 January 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

relook at what I said, then compare them to available hard points.

For instance, the ER PPC? Is still 10% hotter than the THUDs....and it can only mount ONE of them (And that one is stuck in a low slung arm, not able to be tossed in uber high torso mounts). Mount the Delta Arm, you only get the base 20% which for 2 ER PPC, helps some, but is nowhere near TDR-9S level.

The same goes with any combination you look at on those suggestions.

The Delta? Can only mount 4 lasers max. And 4 ER Larges will still be too hot, overall. It could be decent with 4 MPL, but that is a Light to Medium Mech's armament.

In no situation does it's quirks actually match any of the more excessive IS ones, like the DRG-1N, Pretty Baby, LCT-1V (which needs it) or the TDRs.

As for the 5x aSRM6? It's ok for ambushes, but it's hot, ammo inefficient, had horrible range, and while the damage looks impressive, it's spread all over the place. One can't ignore it, but it's not hard to counter, either.

Don't be bringing facts into it. Clan 'mechs are OP don't you dare say otherwise....
That said, Summoner would do well with a few more welfare buffs (I do like the 5% speed buff for instance).

Edited by Chagatay, 11 January 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Chagatay, on 11 January 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

Don't be bringing facts into it. Clan 'mechs are OP don't you dare say otherwise....
That said, Summoner would do well with a few more welfare buffs (I do like the 5% speed buff for instance).

Oh, I look at agility buffs and weapon buffs as utterly different. Lot's of IS mechs get more than "5" levels of buffs, especially if the mobility adjustments on some chassis are brought into the picture.

Even worse is the lack of consistency to the buffs...some mechs get 2 buffs to a 25% bonus on things, another gets 2 buffs....to 50%? i mean, what the heck?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 January 2015 - 08:29 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

switched my SMN-Bravo to duplicate my old TT loadout.

Runs a little hotter, and I miss the indirect fire from my LRM15, but while my average kills have stayed the same, my damage is up nearly 100 per match. Nice alternate to my Prime.

[KuroNyra]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 January 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

switched my SMN-Bravo to duplicate my old TT loadout.

Runs a little hotter, and I miss the indirect fire from my LRM15, but while my average kills have stayed the same, my damage is up nearly 100 per match. Nice alternate to my Prime.

100 of damage per battle?
Or 100 more in battle than before?

[Bishop Steiner]

KuroNyra, on 11 January 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

100 of damage per battle?
Or 100 more in battle than before?

the latter

[KuroNyra]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 January 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

the latter

Fiou, I feared the worst for a moment.

[Bishop Steiner]

KuroNyra, on 11 January 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Fiou, I feared the worst for a moment.

oh, it's still pretty bad, In a bone stock SMN-P I only average mid 300s. Have only broke 700 once, and 500 a few times.
So in this, I am averaging mid 400s.

But I like the challenge.

compare that to TWs where I don't even notice the score if its under 700.........

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 January 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[YueFei]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 January 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

Well, on my other thread I believe my breakdown was

Unlock Endo for Omnis that don't have it (but with locked predetermined crits)

Yes, I agree that the lack of option for Endo/Ferro on some Clan machines is what holds them back.

That, and hard-wired Jump Jets. Being able to squeeze out even 1 extra ton can make a big difference. It boggles my mind that Inner Sphere mechs can put Jump Jets anywhere except arms and head, but the jump jets in Omnis are just stuck there forever.

Then again, I disagreed with PGI's philosophy of trying to make Clans and Inner Sphere balanced. I would not have minded having Clans retain technological superiority, and I'm a 100% Inner Sphere player. I would've preferred balance to come from other directions, such as having Clans bid amongst themselves (as in the lore), and fight each other for the right to attack the Inner Sphere worlds. That, and logistics, with the Inner Sphere outnumbering the Clans both per-match and in the overall strategic picture. But, given that the game revolves around each player owning their own stable of mechs, that ship has sailed long ago.

I used to play in a MW4 league where a central database kept track of all the mechs each faction had, along with the factories on each planet producing mechs at a certain rate. Once a mech was destroyed in a match, it was gone, until a new mech was built to replace it. Transporting mechs around by drop ship took time, so you could concentrate more mechs against certain planets at the cost of reducing your garrisons elsewhere.

Under that kind of system, each faction has certain economic production capability, and a limited number of mechs. Inner Sphere would outnumber the Clans significantly like that.

But like I said, since MWO has every player owning a stable of mechs that never need to be repaired or replaced.... it's not possible for them to balance the Community Warfare along those lines.

Quote

and for the Prime:
- 20% Cooldown on Ballistics (Whole chassis)
- 20% Cooldown on LB-10X (LA only)
- 15% Heat Reduction on Energy (Chassis)
- 15% Heat Reduction on C-ERPPC (RA only)
- 25% Projectile Speed boost (Chassis) or a Cooldown on the PPC (RA)

I'd like to see buffs for its LRM15 cooldown and projectile speed as well. Allow it to synergize better with the reduced cooldowns on the LB10-X and ERPPC. That way, you can squeeze out two salvos of LB10-X and ERPPC, and in the same time frame squeeze out two salvos for the LRM15. Missile lock time reduction would also be nice.

Quote

Summoner Bravo:
- 25% Projectile Speed Missiles (Chassis)
- 20% Cooldown Missiles (Chassis)
- 20% Cooldown LRM20s (Arms)
- 15% Range Missiles (Chassis)
- 30% Target Lock Speed Missiles (Chassis)


Summoner Delta:
- 20% Heat Reduction Energy (Chassis)
- 20% Heat Reduction ER Large Lasers (RA/LA)
- 20% Heat Reduction ER Mlasers (RA/LA)
- -40% beam duration All Lasers (Chassis)
- 20% Cool Down Energy (chassis)


Note that I listed the "generic" quirks as tied to the chassis, but the specific weapon quirks tot eh pods that come with them.
IMO; Clan MEchs basic quirks should be by the variant, but any swapped pods LOSE their special quirks, so that one can take the LB-X pod from the Prime and put it on a Delta, but it only gets whatever base chassis bonuses the Delta gets with that weapon, then.

Looks good to me, and prevents stacking bonuses in an unforeseen way that leads to problems.

I really feel like the Summoner's style should be to rocket around the map reaching ridiculous places to get firing positions on the enemy, and then dumping firepower onto them from above like there's no tomorrow, before quickly reaching its heat cap and then rocketing away to relocate and cool off and then rinse and repeat. Players should get used to seeing Summoners perched above them throwing thunder and lightning down upon them.

Cooldown and heat buffs will go a long way toward that, but they really also need to buff jump jets.

[Deathlike]

YueFei, on 11 January 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

Cooldown and heat buffs will go a long way toward that, but they really also need to buff jump jets.

Who loves their Hoverjets™? He (who shall not be named) does!

Note: This was in the secret commercial that was created under the cloak of ECM in Vancouver.

[InspectorG]

Not intending to steal Bishop's thread but i posted this in the Feature Suggestion area.

http://mwomercs.com/...-our-summoners/

Trying to get more visibility to PGI so they can do some of our ideas.

Feel free to post or copy stuff you post here over there so it gets seen?????