1236 replies to this topic

[Summon3r]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

of course, doesn't that point to the real issue...mechs like Wubshee, DWF and other 1 Click Wins being OP as crap thanks to poor choices in aiming and combat mechanics?

this a billion times over, has been posted about a billion times and will more then likely be ignored FOREVER :'(

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

not trying to make it a brawler gun. But are you really telling me that you can't snipe with 1700-1800 m/s Gauss instead of 2000?

I'm looking at [ER]PPCs as the case study of how velocity reductions impact the role/utility of a weapon.

I'd really just rather do something like reduce the IS Gauss explosion damage to 15 and/or give it a lil bit more HP for further differentiation.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 19 November 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

I'm looking at [ER]PPCs as the case study of how velocity reductions impact the role/utility of a weapon.

I'd really just rather do something like reduce the IS Gauss explosion damage to 15 and/or give it a lil bit more HP for further differentiation.

added further reasoning to the post

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 19 November 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

That is a good point...how many Clam variants are left?

This is one of the few, but it's also been there from the start.

For IS... a lot.

For Clan, I think that's more or less what's left.

[Kin3ticX]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

that's the hard part, but how does one really address the Inner Sphere/ Clan power imbalance, when there is already such a gaping Clan/Clan one? Clans need to be relatively equalized among themselves so that a clear picture can really be seen on what needs nerfs or tweaks on Clan Tech to make it balance.

The lack of balance comes directly from the inherent imbalance between Clan Mechs, and Quirks are just bandaids hiding the festering problem.


not trying to make it a brawler gun. But are you really telling me that you can't snipe with 1700-1800 m/s Gauss instead of 2000?

Agreed
The power gap is too big for quirks because the underlying problems are unquirkable. No matter how they tip toe around a Clan engine nerf, Clan XL blowout = alive, IS XL blowout = dead. Nerfing the speed or cooling is hardly a "fix".

and now... things have really come to a head w/ IIC mechs incoming

It is essentially a 3rd tech base of sorts, Inner Sphere mechs w/ Clan engines, upgrades, and weapons, but no omnipods.

They never actually squared balance away post wave 1. Okay so they nerfed some Clan laser ranges and made quirks bigger...I remain skeptical.

If you price in the non-omni clan mech packs we don't know about then you have to wonder what they think they are doing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kin3ticX, on 19 November 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Agreed
The power gap is too big for quirks because the underlying problems are unquirkable. No matter how they tip toe around a Clan engine nerf, Clan XL blowout = alive, IS XL blowout = dead. Nerfing the speed or cooling is hardly a "fix".

and now... things have really come to a head w/ IIC mechs incoming

It is essentially a 3rd tech base of sorts, Inner Sphere mechs w/ Clan engines, upgrades, and weapons, but no omnipods.

They never actually squared balance away post wave 1. Okay so they nerfed some Clan laser ranges and made quirks bigger...I remain skeptical.

If you price in the non-omni clan mech packs we don't know about then you have to wonder what they think they are doing.

well, point in fact, they never really squared away balance with Inner Sphere tech level 1 (3025 tech) before adding Star League Tech (lev 2) which has only snowballed with Clan Tech...and become an avalanche with Clan Battlemechs.

I believe most here have heard (and sometimes poopoo'd) me state that the issue was they did not balance and then set Level 1 tech IN STONE as the baseline to balance all new features around. I've been beating this drum since mid Closed Beta. And every tech addition has made the truth of that concern more apparent.

Now we0re getting mechs that are supposed to be the Ford Pintos and Yugos of the Clan Arsenal, given to the cast off warriors barely tolerated.... and they are potentially going to be the most powerful mechs in the game...and Russ is convinced that PSR and MM will be enough to moderate that power creep.... no power SURGE.

And unless they got some super secret ninja algorithm from DARPA to unleash.... there is exactly no possible way it will work.

[Deathlike]

Kin3ticX, on 19 November 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Agreed
The power gap is too big for quirks because the underlying problems are unquirkable. No matter how they tip toe around a Clan engine nerf, Clan XL blowout = alive, IS XL blowout = dead. Nerfing the speed or cooling is hardly a "fix".

and now... things have really come to a head w/ IIC mechs incoming

It is essentially a 3rd tech base of sorts, Inner Sphere mechs w/ Clan engines, upgrades, and weapons, but no omnipods.

They never actually squared balance away post wave 1. Okay so they nerfed some Clan laser ranges and made quirks bigger...I remain skeptical.

If you price in the non-omni clan mech packs we don't know about then you have to wonder what they think they are doing.

With the omnipod based Clan mechs... you can build mechs ideally to your specifications... making the Invasion variants exceptional "for their value" most of the time (Ice Ferret+Gargoyle and others being exceptions). Compare this to Resistance or Phoenix Pack variants (that require quirks in order to be useful) that are insanely fixed (Jenner IIC C-bill bonus variant is essentially an "upgraded Oxide" - the Zeus-9S is just the exception to the rule due to "popular demand"). If you were to ask me though, it's how this system has worked.

It doesn't mean there aren't bad Clan omnimechs (Ice Ferret, Mist Lynx, etc.), but the pricing reflects this.

[Lightfoot]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Gauss Vomit sans lasers becomes much less effective. 5.5 second cooldown gauss vomit sanas lightsaber crutch?

Might be on life support.

Of course, Gauss was always the posterchild for bad Battletech design. Super range, minimal explosive risk, next to no heat, second highest PP damage in the game. Which is why it dominated in TT, too.

Not only broke as heck, but judging by the navy's railgun tests, just wrong, period.... as you don't generate this kind of a plasma cloud on a "no heat" weapon.

Aka, jus tlike the propellant charge in the chamber and barrel of an AC, so to, would this heat transfer to a mech.

It always should have had heat similar to the AC20, maybe even a little higher, as it having 2.5x the range of the AC20 already more than compensated for it only delivery 3/4 the damage. Even generating say 8 heat, it would have been a good weapon, and in fact a lot closer to balanced. Probably should have been the same weight as the AC20 though, and then it's lower crits (which also makes no real sense, as the system of a Gauss is actually quite bulky) would still have made it a bargain.

The final version is supposed to have a 240 mile range, but in Battle Tech it should not need the charge-up to be balanced as the recycle time should be sufficient to balance it. MWO just has weak mechs with big hit-boxes so can't support the Gauss. A possible fix is to give the mechs overlapping hit-boxes making a bullseye shot into a single mech section unlikely. The Gauss Rifle is balanced by weight and recycle times and the proof of it's weak damage to ton ratio is that it's removal by the addition of the charge-up, even at a 4 second recycle, made TTK times become shorter once other lighter weapons replaced it with higher DPS per ton.

I am just pondering how the IIc mechs will really marginalize mechs like the Summoner even further.

[Coolant]

I think I've posted a couple of times in this thread, but what's one more. Summoner is my favorite mech, but with the hard points and low weapons in the arms it's just painful to pilot it sometimes. Love the agility, the speed, torso twist, just the lack of hardpoints and low-to-the-ground firing.

Please give us another omnipod with more hard points! (specifically at least 1 more energy hard point).

[pbiggz]

Another energy hardpoint would be the relatively easy fix, im certainly not opposed to it.

Id love a little more podspace though, even 2 or 3 tonnes more would vastly improve its utility.

Edited by pbiggz, 20 November 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[pbiggz]

btw, keep this thread going until at least december 21st 2015, maybe a year will be long enough for the devs to actually notice us (other than paul) and actually do something.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 20 November 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

btw, keep this thread going until at least december 21st 2015, maybe a year will be long enough for the devs to actually notice us (other than paul) and actually do something.

I plan to keep it going indefinitely....

whether it gets results or simply keepspissing off the people who have already pissed and moaned about how "perfect" the Summoner and other Welfare Clan Mechs are.

[LordBraxton]

I support this thread even though I think 75% of the IS lineup needs more help than the summoner.

PGI never fixes anything.

Look at the poor catapult for the gods' sakes

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 November 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

I plan to keep it going indefinitely....

whether it gets results or simply keepspissing off the people who have already pissed and moaned about how "perfect" the Summoner and other Welfare Clan Mechs are.

PTS4 is keeping its Speed Twerks. Isn't "universal mech health care tweaks" great?

Edited by Deathlike, 20 November 2015 - 06:24 PM.

[pbiggz]

Deathlike, on 20 November 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

PTS4 is keeping its Speed Twerks. Isn't "universal mech health care tweaks" great?

Yeah unless it moves like a 40 tonner speed wont save it. Doing speed better than other mechs is it's thing but lets be real here, in this game, its almost meaningless when at 5 tonnes heavier you have mechs that have triple the firepower and just about the same top speed.

LordBraxton, on 20 November 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

I support this thread even though I think 75% of the IS lineup needs more help than the summoner.

PGI never fixes anything.

Look at the poor catapult for the gods' sakes

Indeed.

Although I've heard the catapult and some others have got some hitbox love recently. Either way, I don't mean to take away from the other mechs, they need help too, but this mech is about the summoner, which is my favourite mech, and therefore is the most important to fix because I have said so.

[Bishop Steiner]

LordBraxton, on 20 November 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

I support this thread even though I think 75% of the IS lineup needs more help than the summoner.

PGI never fixes anything.

Look at the poor catapult for the gods' sakes

Catapult just got improved (yes, I said it, improved) hitboxes, and is going to be rescaled in short order.

But other than that, yeah, I agree.

[pbiggz]

while we're at it!

The shadowcat and the ice ferret could use some welfare hardpoints too. Energy preferably.

[pbiggz]

im still not letting this slide any further...

[KingRock]

One of my all time favourite mechs is the summoner. After doing the meta thing and mastering hellbringers and jags full of yellow lasers, I've started on the summoner. Leveling this trashcan is on par with the suffering I went through in the executioner; minus the firepower. It's hugely disappointing that a mech with so much potential is so weak. With full armour it's got nowhere near enough weight to sustain any decent weapon setup, and not enough hard points to carry a pack of lighter guns. It desperately needs to be changed, or at least given some IS level quirks like 40% cooldown range on ac10 and erppc. At the moment it's painful trying to grind this one out, If i didn't have some overwhelming OCD about the orange wing badges om all my mechs I'd probably just sell them off along with **** fox and novaheater. PGI please make this playable

[SgtMagor]

my Summoner and main ride in Mw4 was a beast, dual gauss rifles, erll, was all it had but dfaing a mech while I blew up their cockpit with those weapons was painful. had no problems going one on one with any chassis type from light to assault with that mech...I cant bring myself to use it in MWO...