104 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

NovaFury, on 22 December 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

This is why there are quirks. The funny thing is, the IS MPL on a Thunderbolt 5SS has the same range as the clan MPL, and is superior in every other way imaginable.

Funny, huh? I mean, clan MPLs are already pretty good. Gman lists a comp stormcrow build around them.

You forgot to mention that IS Medium pulse lasers have NO GHOST HEAT
But Clan ones do.

[Hillslam]

There's no interpretation or slanting to it. Straight up numbers comparo.

Which is why I left traits out of the first tally, and left exclusive weapons out of the first tally too.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

There's no interpretation or slanting to it. Straight up numbers comparo.

Not quite

Example - the PPC.

While the CERPPC technically does more damage - all the extra is in the splash - and half of that is potentially lost.

Ergo - to rate it as more damage is not quite accurate - and yet neither would be to rate it as the same.

In actuality the only other weapons with "extra splash" are the missile weapons (which currently have a splash radius that does not exist) as the LBX weapons ONLY have splash. (Much like exactly how SRM function - which you do NOT mark that way)




IE: most people are going to look at your chart - see the CERPPC has more damage and additional splash - and going to come to the wrong concusion about it's power related to the IS PPC pair.

Whereas the truth is the only reason people mount CERPPC is because of what pinpoint they have
Being (along with the Gauss) the only even remotely pinpoint weapons (for functional gameplay) clans have

IE: the first thing most Warhawk primes do is rip the PPC off for LPL - despite (on paper) the LPL being lesser




Another problem being that you cannot simply "black and white" the weapons like this - as (again with the PPC) while one may have better numbers on paper in all but one situation- it does not counter it's deficiencies enough

Edited by Shar Wolf, 22 December 2014 - 05:03 PM.

[1453 R]

And your solution is to flip it the other way, right? Ensure that all Clan weapons are inferior to their IS equivalents in every possible way? You do remember the limitations and drawbacks hard-baked into most of the...

Ye know what? No. Not gonna go there. It hasn't worked the last seventy million times someone tried to tell you that the C-ERML has not Ruined MWO Forever™, it's not going to work this time. Enjoy your years-long mad-on, man. I'll be off in my Clan 'Mechs having a good time.

[Andi Nagasia]

you dont seem to mention Ghost heat,
which is also a important balancing factor,


you give all Clan Ultra/LBX AC the better Cooldown to IS ACs,
-
Fact, Clan Ultra/LBX ACs fire the same as IS ACs,
(you give them all green when IS are the same)
-
Fact, Clan AC Ultras have same Cooldown as normal IS ACs,
(you gave all Clan AC Ultras green in Cooldown, but IS ACs yellow),


you give all Clan Ultra/LBX AC the Better damage vs IS ACs,
-
Fact, All AC2 do 2 Damage reguardless of faction ,
(you give them all Green(more) damage vs IS ACs)
-
Fact, All AC5 do 5 Damage reguardless of faction ,
(you give them all Green(more) damage vs IS ACs)
-
Fact, All AC10 do 10 Damage reguardless of faction ,
(you give them all Green(more) damage vs IS ACs)
-
Fact, All AC20 do 20 Damage reguardless of faction ,
(you give them all Green(more) damage vs IS ACs)


you give Clan AC5Ultra the same Cooldown as IS AC5Ultra,
-
Fact, IS AC5 Ultra fire faster than Clan AC5 Ultra,
(you gave both yellow when IS AC5 Ultra should be green),


you give Clan StreakSRM2 the same speed as IS StreakSRM2,
-
Fact, Clan StreakSRM2 move 180 to IS 200, so IS should show as faster Speed,
(you have both yellow as Clan SSRM2 should be read and IS SSRM2 green),


you give all Clan weapons that dont have an IS counterpart green,
-
Fact, doing such exaggerates how much green Clan has,
(so Clan would have much more green, as Clan has more weapons),


assuming these errors are corrected,

Comparing Ultra/LBX ACs Cooldown,
thats +0 IS green, & -8 Clan Green,

Comparing Ultra/LBX ACs Damage,
thats +0 IS green, & -8 Clan Green,

and for AC5 Ultras cooldown
thats +1 IS green, & -1 Clan Green,

and for StreakSRM2
thats +1 IS green, & -1 Clan Green,

IS = 27 Green <=> Clan= 50 Green
.......+2............................-18...........
IS = 29 Green <=> Clan= 32 Green


so only 3 on the grounds of difference,
and thats not including Ghost heat,

good initial work,
through some errors,

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 22 December 2014 - 07:37 PM.

[1453 R]

It's well understood by reasonable folks at this juncture of the game that the Inner Sphere tech base's autocannons take a large steaming odiferous dump all over Clan autocannons. the C-LBX/20 is semi-usable outside comp drops, the C-UAC/5 is sorta-kinna-mildly usable in pairs or up but still isn't very good. Everything else is largely garbage. Sure, Clan lasers are excellent, but their lasers and their lightweight SRMs are about all the Clans have.

And frankly, it's about g'damned time lasers were useful. I cannot remember any point prior to the Clan release when lasers on anything heavier than 40 tons were considered anything but tonnage fillers, last-ditch desperation weapons, or gags.

The unfortunate problem, Andi, is that Hillslam doesn't care. Until and unless the Clan technology base is removed from MWO entirely and all Clan machines/weapons yanked from player accounts (preferably without any form of recompense as a proper Take That! to all those dirty, dirty Clantech adopters), Hillslam's not going to be satisfied. It's sad but true.

[Hillslam]

I just summed the numbers. Doesn't get any more clean than that. Numbers are numbers. They don't require us to like them.

Words, words are like fat. Blubber. You wrap enough of it around something, clad it with enough fat, you can hide the shape of anything.

Edited by Hillslam, 22 December 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[Khobai]

clan tech is supposed to be better than IS tech. working as intended. nothing to see here.

[Brody319]

1453 R, on 22 December 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

It's well understood by reasonable folks at this juncture of the game that the Inner Sphere tech base's autocannons take a large steaming odiferous dump all over Clan autocannons. the C-LBX/20 is semi-usable outside comp drops, the C-UAC/5 is sorta-kinna-mildly usable in pairs or up but still isn't very good. Everything else is largely garbage. Sure, Clan lasers are excellent, but their lasers and their lightweight SRMs are about all the Clans have.

And frankly, it's about g'damned time lasers were useful. I cannot remember any point prior to the Clan release when lasers on anything heavier than 40 tons were considered anything but tonnage fillers, last-ditch desperation weapons, or gags.

The unfortunate problem, Andi, is that Hillslam doesn't care. Until and unless the Clan technology base is removed from MWO entirely and all Clan machines/weapons yanked from player accounts (preferably without any form of recompense as a proper Take That! to all those dirty, dirty Clantech adopters), Hillslam's not going to be satisfied. It's sad but true.

I say let him cry. Maybe he can get hired to help with the Olympics by filling the pools with his tears. Just need to show him a Timberwolf.

[Hillslam]

wow you guys really are scared of numbers. redirect, cast aspersions, muddy the water, deploy the words.

I own all the clan mechs, drive em all, mastered em all. And when I want to play IS v IS I do CW on the Marik or Kurita border.

Whole bunch of fat blubber blah blah and words thrown around. Those are the numbers. Anybody can sum em up. Go yell at PGI.

Maybe if you talk enough 2 will become greater than 3.

Edited by Hillslam, 22 December 2014 - 05:27 PM.

[1453 R]

Can't judge a system by examining its components in a vacuum, Hillslam. As you've insisted on trying to do since...hm, when did the Clans release, precisely?

Get over it, dude. They're here to stay. You're never going to get Piranha to take them away again.

[Hillslam]

Never said I was, but you go on trying to pretend I made something up here for an agenda.

Just put the numbers up in a grid. The numbers are what they are.

That's the thing about numbers. Numbers are best at cutting thru BS. Kind of the opposite of GroupThink, anecdotes, feelgoods, and speechmaking.

Here's the best part: these are PGIs numbers, and they already have em. They dont need you or me to like or hate them.

You're right, these numbers are presented in a vacuum. *IF* I were analyzing the whole system, which I'm not, I'd have to add more in.

I'm sure PGI will augment those with other numbers such as w/l, etc. We'll see how it goes.

Meanwhile I can go fight IS at Kurita or Marik, or go up north to smack clammers around. Or play the mixed bag in skirmish. I don't really need anything to go anywhere.

Edited by Hillslam, 22 December 2014 - 06:04 PM.

[Brody319]

Yes PGI is totally going to just yank the clans or nerf them to the ground because 3-4 people on the forums can't stop crying.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

Wow

You are really paranoid aren't you?

I never once said I disagreed with them - just that they were going to be interpreted wrong.
Then I gave the reasons WHY.

Thank you for actually noticing the sheer number of people in the thread proving me right about that.
Assuming, of course, that your numbers as right as you keep claiming they are.

[Bulletsponge0]

does he really have lasers listed as pinpoint damage?

[Hillslam]

shar - i dont see what you quoted, assuming my response brody and 1453, which wasnt directed at you. but add the numbers up yourself, i will correct mistakes.

brody/1453 - I stopped asking for clan nerfs months ago. lets continue to buff up IS and the clan laggers. make it a fair fight. and how do you know when you've leveled it? numbers. like these and W/L statistics.


(but you don't want that, do you? not really.)

Bulletsponge0, on 22 December 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

does he really have lasers listed as pinpoint damage?

Lasers hit where they're aimed. SSRMs for example don't. PP and front load are in two different trait columns.

Edited by Hillslam, 22 December 2014 - 06:17 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

shar - i dont see what you quoted

Your whole thread.

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

Lasers hit where they're aimed. SSRMs for example don't. PP and front load are in two different trait columns.

True.

[Bulletsponge0]

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

shar - i dont see what you quoted, assuming my response brody and 1453, which wasnt directed at you. but add the numbers up yourself, i will correct mistakes.

brody/1453 - I stopped asking for clan nerfs months ago. lets continue to buff up IS and the clan laggers. make it a fair fight. and how do you know when you've leveled it? numbers. like these and W/L statistics.


(but you don't want that, do you? not really.)


Lasers hit where they're aimed. SSRMs for example don't. PP and front load are in two different trait columns.

but you also have clan AC's listed as front loaded....and they most definitely are not

[Alaskan Nobody]

Bulletsponge0, on 22 December 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

but you also have clan AC's listed as front loaded....and they most definitely are not

A point I forgot to mention in my first post here >.<

Thank you for doing so

[mogs01gt]

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

Suppress and Adjust - means the weapon delivers damage over time, giving the shooter the ability to adjust aim and deliver some damage (flight sim pilots love this, FPS guys hate it). Additional trait of suppression of target.

LMAO soo true!!!! I ******* HATE the DPS ballastics of the clans!