104 replies to this topic

[Tyman4]

Hillsam,

I'm 99% sure that the Clan LPL takes 2 crit slots same as the IS version. Perhaps I am looking at an old file that you have not yet changed?

Additionally, I would agrue to staight up remove the pinpoint and hitscan columns. Just because there is something lacking in the description of reality from those two. You argue that lasers are pinpoint and hitscan which is odd. Realistically I don't think it is fair to argue that laser are pinpoint because no pilot worth their salt will stand still while you fire making the weapon hitscan. But if they do then it could be considered pinpoint. Therefore, it has a probability of being both until observed (lolz )

I would also consider all Clan weapons to be identical to short burst lasers. Theoretically, if your aim is good on a target all rounds will land over a period of time (much like a laser) on the same place. However, they could be argued as hitscan weapons because of this feature also.

This is why I dislike those two columns, they don't really make sense compared to the front-loaded and suppression columns.

Additionally the clan ac2 and IS ac2 have red for the "pinpoint" column out of all the normal AC's. why?

Tyman
-EDIT - Cerppc has both green in damage AND green in splash. Since the CERPPC additional damage is the splash damage that seems to be double counting. Either it has 15 damage total, and no splash. Or it has the same damage 10, and splash for 5.

-EDIT - The clan ERLL has a longer duration than BOTH the IS ERLL and the IS LL. So I would argue that either list the IS LL as exclusive or at least put in that both the IS LL's are green for duration.

-EDIT2 - I argue that the C lrms have a duration due to the missles not firing in a group. That would also reflect the improved effect of IS AMS against clan LRMS.

-EDIT2 - Something feels "off" with the ballistics because most everyone I know would prefer the IS ballistics but that is not reflected in this sheet because clan ballistics are better by 1 "point" for every catagory. This disagreement between reality and the sheet disturbs me....THERE IS A DISTURBANCE IN THE SHEET!!!

Edited by Tyman4, 23 December 2014 - 05:22 AM.

[Metus regem]

Along with Tyman4, I think the lasers are a bit off, as the only lasers that can be compared against each other are:

IS-ERLL
cERLL
IS-LPL
cLPL
IS-MPL
cMPL
IS-SPL
cSPL

I make this distinction, as once the IS-ERML/ERSL come out, and they will, you will find that IS pilots will have the option to trade damage and range for heat, or run cooler weapons. So I would think that showing a table that compares extended range vs normal weapons is as pointless as comparing ultra AC's to LB-X or normal AC's, they are different animals. And along those lines, once the special ammo for IS AC's come out, you will see that they will be out classing the clan LB-X or ultras.

[The Boz]

Hey, OP, can you hit me up with the spreadsheets? I'll see if I can find the time to enpointen the thing, make it less binary.

And to everyone constantly hammering on the "it's bad because X", why don't you put your effort where your mouth is? Make a detailed comparison of weapons, even a subset of weapons, and post it. I'd love to laugh at your "CERPPC = ERPPC" hilarity.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The thing is, your still basing everything on your opinion of how the numbers translate.

Lets look at the IS standard PPC vs the Clan ER PPC. At out to 540m I think, the IS PPC is clearly the better weapon. While it doesn't have the extra 5 damage spreading, as a pin point damage tool, it equals the Clan ER PPC in every way plus it is massively cooler.

Then when you consider that most combat takes place in the 200-500m range, you quickly find that the IS standard PPC is clearly the PPC to choose in the vast majority of combat situations in the game. Also because it is so much cooler than the Clan ER PPC, even though it weighs more than the Clan ER PPC, the Clan ER PPC requires significantly more tonnage devoted to DHS to bring them down to the same levels of heat. Overall when your talking total tonnage invested including taking into account heat management, the Clan ER PPC requires significantly more tonnage despite the weapon itself being lighter.

The point is you have to step beyond the numbers and evaluate based on the actual combat environment and when you do that, aside from a very few specific circumstances, Clan weapons barely hold their own against IS weapons, especially now that IS mechs are quirked to hell and back to make those weapons even better.

[The Boz]

Viktor Drake, on 23 December 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

The thing is, your still basing everything on your opinion of how the numbers translate.

Lets look at the IS standard PPC vs the Clan ER PPC. At out to 540m I think, the IS PPC is clearly the better weapon. While it doesn't have the extra 5 damage spreading, as a pin point damage tool, it equals the Clan ER PPC in every way plus it is massively cooler.

Then when you consider that most combat takes place in the 200-500m range, you quickly find that the IS standard PPC is clearly the PPC to choose in the vast majority of combat situations in the game. Also because it is so much cooler than the Clan ER PPC, even though it weighs more than the Clan ER PPC, the Clan ER PPC requires significantly more tonnage devoted to DHS to bring them down to the same levels of heat. Overall when your talking total tonnage invested including taking into account heat management, the Clan ER PPC requires significantly more tonnage despite the weapon itself being lighter.

The point is you have to step beyond the numbers and evaluate based on the actual combat environment and when you do that, aside from a very few specific circumstances, Clan weapons barely hold their own against IS weapons, especially now that IS mechs are quirked to hell and back to make those weapons even better.

...those are still numbers. One non-number you ignore, is the fact that being a 2-slot weapon means the C-ERPPC can fit into a center torso energy slot.

[Metus regem]

Yet when you factor in 3 additional 1.4 DHS, for a total of 4.2 heat reduction, we are looking at it being a 9 ton weapon, that requires 8 slots, or 7 additional slots to have a similar heat profile as the standard IS PPC, is the point that is trying to be addressed. All that is being said everything cannot be looked at in a vacume, and should be looked at as a whole.

[Hillslam]

There's no interpretation anywhere on the sheet.

Every category compares two numbers. If the number is supposed to be big, the weapon with the big number gets the green. If the number is supposed to be small, the weapon with the small number gets the green. If the numbers are equal, they both get yellow, no winner point for either.

Its really simple and explained in the OP.

If you don't agree please check the numbers on smurfy and tell me where I have a comparison wrong and I'll fix it.

People are trying to get me to INJECT interpretation in order to support their narrative. Its a number compare. 8 will always be less than 11. I'm sure there is truth beyond the numbers. Write a blog/post/analysis. That's more interesting. But I won't make 11 less than 8 because people don't like how a weapon operates. I barely decided to include the traits section (and I don't include them in the tally), but recognize they are a factor. They are separate columns to measure separate traits.

Mordin Ashe, on 22 December 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

...You say you simply layed out the numbers but your interpretations are full of errors ...

Yep I simply laid out the numbers. No there is no intepretation. 10 is less than 15. It always will be.
The numbers are right (almost all, and getting better as people point out mistakes).

You'd be more accurate saying "I don't like the raw data laid out this way, because...." But you didn't.

Viktor Drake, on 23 December 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

The thing is, your still basing everything on your opinion of how the numbers translate.

No. See above. There is no interpretation. 15 is bigger than 10, end of damage category compare.

I could see moving Add'l splash damage to the traits column, since the damage column is double dipping it. I will move it this afternoon.

Viktor Drake, on 23 December 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

The point is you have to step beyond the numbers and evaluate based on the actual combat environment...

Please do so. I would find it interesting to read. No joke. The problem I see is such an analysis would have to be comprehensive and holistic and well thought out, plus guarded against injecting bias. Which i'm pretty sure anyone who plays the game will be unable to avoid.

Hence comparing 10 v 15. You'd think there'd be no argument here. Its stripped out anything extraneous. Apparently not. Sacred cows abound.

Tyman4, on 23 December 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

I'm 99% sure that the Clan LPL takes 2 crit slots same as the IS version. Perhaps I am looking at an old file that you have not yet changed?

Thanks, I'll double check when I get home.

Tyman4, on 23 December 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

You argue that lasers are pinpoint and hitscan which is odd. Realistically I don't think it is fair to argue that laser are pinpoint because no pilot worth their salt will stand still while you fire making the weapon hitscan. But if they do then it could be considered pinpoint. Therefore, it has a probability of being both until observed (lolz )

hitscan and pinpoint describe two different traits. So they're in the trait section. I have the defn of the two in the 2nd post I think.

Tyman4, on 23 December 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

Cerppc has both green in damage AND green in splash.

good catch i'll be changing that as it is double dipping

Tyman4, on 23 December 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

The clan ERLL has a longer duration than BOTH the IS ERLL and the IS LL. So I would argue that either list the IS LL as exclusive or at least put in that both the IS LL's are green for duration.

the IS LL could come out and get its own family and win a straight across the board no-comparo set of greens.

Tyman4, on 23 December 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

I argue that the C lrms have a duration due to the missles not firing in a group. That would also reflect the improved effect of IS AMS against clan LRMS.

each missile arrival is digital.

Tyman4, on 23 December 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

Something feels "off" with the ballistics because most everyone I know would prefer the IS ballistics but that is not reflected in this sheet because clan ballistics are better by 1 "point" for every catagory. This disagreement between reality and the sheet disturbs me....THERE IS A DISTURBANCE IN THE SHEET!!!

Opinion. And I may not disagree. Hence why I didn't try to bias the numbers or "account for xyz". I just straight up compared the numbers. Intepretation is for bloggers. And makes for good reading. (as does the reactions to the vanilla numbers)

Metus regem, on 23 December 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

...I make this distinction, as once the IS-ERML/ERSL come out, and they will, you will find that IS pilots will have the option to trade damage and range for heat, or run cooler weapons. So I would think that showing a table that compares extended range vs normal weapons is as pointless as comparing ultra AC's to LB-X or normal AC's, they are different animals. And along those lines, once the special ammo for IS AC's come out, you will see that they will be out classing the clan LB-X or ultras.

Good points. When those come out I'll add them. As you point out thats why I didn't compare LBx to ultras, etc.

The Boz, on 23 December 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Hey, OP, can you hit me up with the spreadsheets? I'll see if I can find the time to enpointen the thing, make it less binary.

Sure thing. PM an email address and I'll send over.

Edited by Hillslam, 23 December 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[Demuder]

Hillslam, on 23 December 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

There's no interpretation anywhere on the sheet.

Every category compares two numbers. If the number is supposed to be big, the weapon with the big number gets the green. If the number is supposed to be small, the weapon with the small number gets the green. If the numbers are equal, they both get yellow, no winner point for either.

Its really simple and explained in the OP.

And yet you clearly refuse to understand, that comparing numbers like that does not work. Outside the realm of pure numbers that is.

Mount Olympus is 27km high, more than 3 times the height of Mount Everest which is 8,8km. Guess what, what those numbers mean nothing when you compare them, one is on Mars, the other is on Earth.

Conversely, I can think of a hypothetical weapon that does 100 point, PPFLD, with a heat generation of 2, weighs 1 ton. Truly magnificent, until you take into account that it requires 15 slots to fit, so no battlemech can carry it. But it's other numbers are truly magnificent, clear winners, right ? Who cares if anyone can actually use it.

Likewise, 1 ton of C-ERPPRC does NOT equal 1 ton of IS PPC or ERPPC and thus, can not be compared in the way you compare them. 1 gallon of gas in a boat does NOT equal one gallon of gas in a car.

Bah, what's the point. It's clear that you simply refuse to face reality.

[Andi Nagasia]

ok if your just going by the numbers then why do you go by type for Lasers and not ACs?
you list LL ER-LL and C-ER-LL as one Type, with Clan having the most damage,

but when it comes to AC you have AC separate form Ultras separate from LBX,
giving them green across the board when they have no competition,
if your gonna separate AC then why not PPC to ER-PPCs ect?

i think they should be in one type AC(2-5-10-20), as all AC of a Type have the same damage,
your Table seems to infer that C-AC Ultra/LBX are superior across the board, when this is not the case,

also C-SSRM2s are still shown as having the same speed(yellow) as IS-SSRM2s,
when IS-SSRM2s are in fact Faster than C-SSRM2s,

[blood4blood]

"Pinpoint" should be rated as Yes/No/Maybe, not just Yes/No.
Ex. Gauss rifles and IS single-shot AC's are Yes.
Ex. LRM's, SSRM's, and LBX are No.
Ex. Lasers with beam duration, Clan AC's & UAC's are Maybe. If you hold your reticle still on a stationary target, they're pinpoint. If either of you is moving (normal combat), they usually spread damage in practice. I'd tend to put SRM's in this category too, because at very close range they can be used as pinpoint weapons, especially with Artemis, but the further out you go the more they spread.

[Hillslam]

Demuder, on 23 December 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

And yet you clearly refuse to understand, that comparing numbers like that does not work.

Tell me, what did you hate more: saying 8 is less than 11, or using colors?

Demuder, on 23 December 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

Bah, what's the point. It's clear that you simply refuse to face reality.

Edited by Hillslam, 23 December 2014 - 08:03 AM.

[Hillslam]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 December 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

ok if your just going by the numbers then why do you go by type for Lasers and not ACs?
you list LL ER-LL and C-ER-LL as one Type, with Clan having the most damage,

Yeah I can pull out ERLL or LL (probably LL) when I get home. See post above, probably put it in its exclusive familly row with all green comps wins.
I compared the cER to IS reg when there was no choice to be had. unlike:

Andi Nagasia, on 23 December 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

but when it comes to AC you have AC separate form Ultras separate from LBX,
giving them green across the board when they have no competition

no competition is free wins. Hence I compared IS ACs to C ACs, and the UAC5 to cUAC5. The rest had no equal so got put into Exclusives and not included in tally.

BTW - pulling out PPC and LL will put them in Exclusives as well.

Andi Nagasia, on 23 December 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

if your gonna separate AC then why not PPC to ER-PPCs ect?

I can pull this one too like the LL

Andi Nagasia, on 23 December 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

also C-SSRM2s are still shown as having the same speed(yellow) as IS-SSRM2s,
when IS-SSRM2s are in fact Faster than C-SSRM2s,

l missed that in the last pass. good catch will fix.

Edited by Hillslam, 23 December 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[The Boz]

I don't get it. Clanners are whining because you have Clan weapons free wins if they have no IS counterpart, but are on the other hand whining that the PPC is better than the CERPPC due to heat, even after the PPC got a win through heat...
The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

[Andi Nagasia]

also technically ML and ER-ML should also be separate,
but as IS densest have ER-ML yet i guess its ok for now,

you analysis looks good just except for a few missed values,
i understand how hard it can be creating an analysis as i have Topics like this as well,
may i suggest changing the green to blue for weapons that dont have competition?
that way people can see they arnt better they just have nothing to compare to,

thanks, and good work,

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 23 December 2014 - 08:15 AM.

[Hillslam]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 December 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

may i suggest changing the green to blue for weapons that dont have competition?
that way people can see they arnt better they just have nothing to compare to,

I like this idea

Andi Nagasia, on 23 December 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

thanks, and good work,

Edit- Spelling

thanks

Edited by Hillslam, 23 December 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Metus regem]

Boz, I am suggesting that the IS-PPC should be in its own category, and the IS ERPPC be compared to the cERPPC. That the lasers that can be compared right now are pulse, and the ERLL, as they are the only ones that exist on both sides. Really we should be looking at cLBX against IS AC's, as the Clans shouldn't have normal AC's, that requires having ammo switching working though...

All I am suggesting is apples to apples, rather than apples or pears, similar, but not the same fruit.

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 23 December 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

I don't get it. Clanners are whining because you have Clan weapons free wins if they have no IS counterpart, but are on the other hand whining that the PPC is better than the CERPPC due to heat, even after the PPC got a win through heat...
The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

You really don't get it.

Clans Weapons have advantage on the paper that simply does not work ingame. Range advantage? All the maps allow for easy battle at 200 meter, and more than 80% happen in that sector of range, for the rest. The others kind of weapons are both for IS and Clans.

Duration, the duration of the laser also influence the damage done to the ennemy, the longer the damage is spread, the longer you have to keep your reticle on the target at the point you want to do the full damage. Inner Sphere does not have that problem.
Same goes for PPC, we would gladly stop having that "Splash" if that could allow us to concentrate all the damage to the place we want to attack.

Clans Auto-Canons, require multiple shot to do the full damage, yeah you can literraly waste a 3/4 of your damage because you have to make sur all the shell goes into the ennemy to get the full damage. Contrary to IS Autocanon who do there full damage with ONE shot.

Let's say you place 2 Dire Wolf, one with 2 Clan AC/20 and one With 2 IS AC/20, guess who will win? IS AC/20. (Because the guys won't just stand and not try to spread the damage. Easier to do against Clans Weapons.)

Let's not talk about the Clans LRMS who are easier to avoid because they come one after the other and not at the same time. Making them more vulnerable to AMS systems, and when the LRMS lost there lock, you can still avoid some of the damage by the LRMS because contrary to a IS LRM. Clans LRM don't hit you at the exact same time


But hey, Clans are op for you anyway. The proof, they have been unstoppable and are already at Terra in the CW and one Timber Wolf can destroy 12 IS mech in 10 second flat for you.

[The Boz]

Metus regem, on 23 December 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Boz, I am suggesting that the IS-PPC should be in its own category, and the IS ERPPC be compared to the cERPPC. That the lasers that can be compared right now are pulse, and the ERLL, as they are the only ones that exist on both sides. Really we should be looking at cLBX against IS AC's, as the Clans shouldn't have normal AC's, that requires having ammo switching working though...

All I am suggesting is apples to apples, rather than apples or pears, similar, but not the same fruit.

That is likely what I'll do, too... only my definition of "apple" is probably somewhat more relaxed than yours, because a 1-ton 1-slot IS ML is entirely comparable to the 1-ton 1-slot C-ERML.

[process]

I'm not saying your conclusions are wrong, but your data and analysis need some adjustment:

1. Your numbers are drawn from comparisons between your perceived Clan-IS analogues. There are slighty more Clan weapons, which skews the data in their favor.

2. The good/neutral/bad system oversimplifies the comparisons. A Clan weapon may have two extra qualities that make it beneficial that are effectively neutralized by one negative quality.

2. "Suppress and adjust" is subjective and inflates the numbers towards Clan weapons.

3. Errors, like double counting "extra Clan ER PPC damage" and "additional splash damage".

4. Your table does not, and cannot, compare how well a weapon works in practice. It also cannot address how effective the weapons work within the context of IS and Clan mechanics. This applies primarily to weapon weight and slots.

[Phlinger]

Hillslam, on 23 December 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

[/size]Tell me, what did you hate more: saying 8 is less than 11, or using colors?

[size=4]

So that's how it's going to be? Players don't bow down to your witch hunt and propaganda used to create a point and refute each and every piece so you resort to insults? Yeah, that really helps make a valid point.....

Oh wait, it doesn't, your just a guy with an agenda and are pissed people aren't blindly following you.