104 replies to this topic

[Hillslam]

Bulletsponge0, on 22 December 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

but you also have clan AC's listed as front loaded....and they most definitely are not

good catch - i'll switch their trait from front load to suppress. none of the totals will change though, since its going from one trait to the other.

[Phlinger]

IS 'Mechs have that Clan 'Mechs do not

• Customizable Engines
  
• Upgrade Endo - not chassis locked
  
• Upgrade Ferro - not chassis locked
  
• Removable jump jets
  
• Single Shot ballistics
  
• Single Shot LRM's
  
• Quirks

It isn't as easy as Clan ERMed laser vs. IS Med laser, it simply isn't that easy. There are many things that make the equation.

How many IS 'Mechs even run close to stock anymore? Not a single one. Upgrading to Double HS's and Endo is a requirement. If you don't want all 7 JJ's on that Griffin, remove some, no harm no foul.

How about this, let's LOCK the IS Mechs to what Sarna lists their Chassis loadout at (Like the Clans are) and give them 2 more damage on medium lasers and 120m added to range, but they also have 6 heat, just like Clans. There, now we are homogenized.

The sad truth is, Inner Sphere pilots want what the Clans have for weapons, but only the good ones. The bad ones, they 'choose' to overlook because it doesn't further their point or position. Take the Clans negatives if you want the Clans positives. Either that or just stop the damned witchhunt.

Yay, now you can sleep at night......

[Johnny Z]

Well done OP. Awaiting the " But clans are supposed to be way better and it should take 14 to 18 IS mech to beat a "Star" of clans because I am a star." arguement.

[Fut]

Fishbulb333, on 22 December 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

Also, ignoring the quirks which make a huge difference to weapon balance pretty much renders the whole exercise pointless. Still, pretty charts, I like the colors.

This isn't quite right.
This is a comparison of the weapons themselves, the quirks don't come into play until you start mounting these on a Chassis. If you would take all the quirks for all the variants into consideration, you wouldn't be able to judge the weapons at all.

[Legion]

Am I the only one that thinks calling the clan acs/Uacs pinpoint is a joke ? not to mention calling the clan er ppcs pinpoint ? and streak 4s and 6s are pinpoint but not streak 2s ? lol this seems extremely flawed.

Edited by Legion, 22 December 2014 - 07:08 PM.

[Astrocanis]

Fishbulb333, on 22 December 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Do you even think before you rattle off posts? Maybe try looking at the actual numbers, here's a link http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

IS SRM-6 - Damage - 12.9 Heat 4.00 Cooldown 4.00

Clan SRM-6 - Damage 12.00 Heat 4.00 Cooldown 4.00

So, no, clan SRMs are not actually better than IS SRMs, at least not on damage. They do however weigh less and take up less crit slots. Personally I'd rather have the damage and the IS ability to customise the hell out of builds to make room for whatever weapons you want. Also, quirks.

Feel free to join us Freebirth and enjoy the underdeveloped fruits of our mech engineers. Might I suggest Davion?

LOL

You mean "If I could keep the inherent advantages of many of my Clan chassis and get the boosts that (mostly inferior) Inner Sphere mechs get, I'd be happy."

[Hillslam]

Legion, on 22 December 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

Am I the only one that thinks calling the clan acs/Uacs pinpoint is a joke ? not to mention calling the clan er ppcs pinpoint ? and streak 4s and 6s are pinpoint but not streak 2s ? lol this seems extremely flawed.

pinpoint here = they hit where they're pointed. but they are not front load damage. two different trait columns.

The CSRM4,6 is an error will fix. good catch.

Edited by Hillslam, 22 December 2014 - 07:09 PM.

[Hillslam]

Ronyn, on 22 December 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

IS 'Mechs have that Clan 'Mechs do not

• Customizable Engines
  
• Upgrade Endo - not chassis locked
  
• Upgrade Ferro - not chassis locked
  
• Removable jump jets
  
• Single Shot ballistics
  
• Single Shot LRM's
  
• Quirks

It isn't as easy as Clan ERMed laser vs. IS Med laser, it simply isn't that easy.

Good point. Maybe an equipment tally sheet next?

[Legion]

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

pinpoint here = they hit where they're pointed. but they are not front load damage. two different trait columns.

The CSRM4,6 is an error will fix. good catch.

not necessarily they do have bullet drop just like the IS .... Also you have streak 4 and 6 listed as suppress/adjust but not streak 2s. Listing clan lrms as no minimum is playing lose with the words no minimum as they do reduced damage the closer the enemy and if I recall correctly the same as the is ppc. pinpoint is on a CAC/CUAC is only pinpoint on a stationary target where as a ISAC is always pinpoint...

Edited by Legion, 22 December 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Hillslam you say you used Smurfy.net,
then why are their so many AC errors in your Table?

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 22 December 2014 - 07:20 PM.

[Hillslam]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

you give all Clan AC the same Cooldown as IS ACs

no I didn't. please look again. I am about to upload a fixed sheet for the errors pointed out, but this is not one of them. I will keep the link to the original png on imageshack as proof.

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

you give all Clan Ultra/LBX AC the Better damage vs IS ACs,

no I didn't. The only compare is LB10. IS have no other LB equivalents. The first and main tally total does not include exclusive weapons.

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

...
you give Clan AC5Ultra the same Cooldown as IS AC5Ultra,
-
Fact, IS AC5 Ultra fire faster than Clan AC5 Ultra,
(you gave both yellow when IS AC5 Ultra should be green),

They are equal - both 1.66 (according to smurfy)

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

you give Clan StreakSRM2 the same speed as IS StreakSRM2,
-
Fact, Clan StreakSRM2 move 180 to IS 200, so IS should show as faster Speed,

good catch. will fix.

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

you give all Clan weapons that dont have an IS counterpart green,

Exclusive weapons represent an option the other side does not have, so they get a default comp win.
Regardless, the Exclusive Weapons are not included in the main primary tally, just as originally stated.

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

...
good initial work,
through some errors,

thanks. fixing errors

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Hillslam you say you used Smurfy.net,

then why are their so many AC errors in your Table?

There aren't. I fixed the other errors above, but even in the original, the IS ACs won the cooldown category. Please recheck.

Edited by Hillslam, 22 December 2014 - 07:45 PM.

[Hillslam]

Legion, on 22 December 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

not necessarily they do have bullet drop just like the IS .... Also you have streak 4 and 6 listed as suppress/adjust but not streak 2s. Listing clan lrms as no minimum is playing lose with the words no minimum as they do reduced damage the closer the enemy and if I recall correctly the same as the is ppc. pinpoint is on a CAC/CUAC is only pinpoint on a stationary target where as a ISAC is always pinpoint...

We could roll the traits together, but they are describing two different data axis:

• PinPoint hits where its pointed. There is no shell drift nor is there area of effect such as missiles (can't help you on shell drop - both IS and C shells drop so there's no compare/contrast there to make). This is different from RNG/ spread weapons like missiles or cone weapons such as the MG.
  
• Front Load Damage is a separate axis measuring does the damage arrive at one time or in a stream over time?

They're two different things. LRMs for C & IS for example are the same as in they are not pinpoint but are different as in their arrival times.

Regardless - both are in the traits section (for this very reason) and so don't affect the primary tally.

[Fonzie260]

I notice the OP didn't list what the targets were? why?

were all the targets the same?

[Metus regem]

Hillslam, the point about the IS UAC firing faster than the cUAC 5, is due to when the cool down starts. The cUAC 5, has to fire the third round in the three round burst before the cool down starts, yet the IS UAC 5 starts the cool down right after you press the trigger. Meaning in 3.32 seconds the Clan one has completed just over 1 full cycle, and the IS one has cycled twice, meaning the IS cannon has a higher RoF.

[Hillslam]

I show the IS ACs winning the cooldown category. Even in the original. I'm not sure the issue.

[Mordin Ashe]

Hillslam, your work is sloppy at best. See what Andi Nagasia wrote.You say you simply layed out the numbers but your interpretations are full of errors and intentional mistakes. What those "traits" are I have no idea, I haven't seen that anywhere and I don't really care because your work record is very, very poor.

Alas, Clan mechs should end up with more greens than IS. That is why IS Mechs are much, much more customizable than ridig Clan Mechs. Balancing is achieved by taking that into account, too. But please, don't do it, good 1/3 of your table is half-truth or misleading.

[The Boz]

Shar Wolf, on 22 December 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

Not quite

Example - the PPC.

Ah, OK. I understand. So when I point out that "7.5% more damage does not compare to 50% less weight", I am objectively wrong, but when you say that the C-ERPPC does not deal more damage than the ERPPC, you are objectively right?
Brilliant.

[LordKnightFandragon]

NOw go back and turn all the IS durations on the lasers to green, I assume that means Burn time? Cuz yeah, the IS universally take the gold there.

ERPPCs just suck, 10dmg PPFL, for 15 heat is just not worth it in any form or fashion. We have strayed far enough from TT that I feel both need to just become like 15/15 weapons, IS included, both bumped to 810 range, while the Clan one gets to keep its crit and weight advantages.

[Demuder]

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

wow you guys really are scared of numbers. redirect, cast aspersions, muddy the water, deploy the words.

I own all the clan mechs, drive em all, mastered em all. And when I want to play IS v IS I do CW on the Marik or Kurita border.

Whole bunch of fat blubber blah blah and words thrown around. Those are the numbers. Anybody can sum em up. Go yell at PGI.

Maybe if you talk enough 2 will become greater than 3.

Dude, your first sentence invalidates all your work. Numbers are numbers only in arithmetic or mathematics. Everywhere else in the real world, numbers are NOT just numbers. Everywhere else in the world numbers represent values that interact between them in quite intricate ways that can not be represented in an addittion/substraction-logic spreadsheet. Even in accounting numbers are NOT just numbers. I won't go in the trouble of explaining this to you further, you either understand this, or you don't.

If you do, you would not have even tried to make that sheet of yours in the first place because it is at best, a very naive comparison if not outright misleading - whichever side get's the "best" weapon, your sheet is pretty much worthless.

If you don't, then please, take the time to try and understand what people are telling you here. Not everyone is out to get you because they are "evil clanners". Or, you are just being stubborn not wanting to understand how much of a fool you make yourself appear to be, sticking to the ridiculous statement "numbers are numbers".

Btw, there are things that are outright wrong in your spreadsheet. You do understand that at least, right ?

Edited by Demuder, 23 December 2014 - 03:13 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I was told there would be pictures! Instead there was charts. I feel lied too.

Intreresting thread. To me the Clan weapons vs IS weapons comparison gets kind of muddy. They have so many different characteristics plus when you add quirks on top of that, it becomes difficult to figure out what is truly balanced or not.

I'm not sure if that is a good thing (balanced) or a bad thing (not balanced, but the fact hidden by quirks).

I still feel clan ballistics (A/Cs and Ultras) are a but lacking, but energy and LRMs seem pretty good. I still feel the Clans still have a solid advantage over the IS with SSRMs.