104 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

The Boz, on 23 December 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

That is likely what I'll do, too... only my definition of "apple" is probably somewhat more relaxed than yours, because a 1-ton 1-slot IS ML is entirely comparable to the 1-ton 1-slot C-ERML.

But what happens to your definition of "apple" once the IS-ERML come in? Then we have a true apple to apple, IS-ERML 1ton 1slot vs cERML 1ton 1slot... The IS-ML would be a pear to keep up with the fruit metaphors, as it has no direct clan counter part, I would put it in a different category, giving it a blue box in all sections rather than mostly red against the cERML, that it is seeing currently.

[Revis Volek]

What is the point of this so called Chart and Numbers?

You just thought....i will leave this here and sho PGI they are doing a **** job? I dont get who you are going after with this?

The Boz, on 23 December 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

...those are still numbers. One non-number you ignore, is the fact that being a 2-slot weapon means the C-ERPPC can fit into a center torso energy slot.

And what do we have? 1 or 2 mechs that can that do that? So because a few mechs can carry a ERPPC in the CT that makes the OP over the IS one? and worthy of making a chart to show how butt hurt you are about it?

Edited by DarthRevis, 23 December 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Mcgral18]

The Boz, on 23 December 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

...those are still numbers. One non-number you ignore, is the fact that being a 2-slot weapon means the C-ERPPC can fit into a center torso energy slot.

Can't only one mediocre robot do that? Barely higher than the arm mounts at that.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 23 December 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Can't only one mediocre robot do that? Barely higher than the arm mounts at that.

The Whale and Gargles can both do it. One of those mechs is good, the other one isn't...

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 23 December 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

The Whale and Gargles can both do it. One of those mechs is good, the other one isn't...

Ah, yes, the DireStar.

[SixstringSamurai]

Hmm you left out some rather important data it seems looking at that spreadsheet:

• Clan UAC/AC shot #s (Only the 2's fire one round per click. All others spread damage across multiple projectiles.).
  
• Possible offsets by quirks on IS chassis. Possible Min/Max values as a result.
  
• Module Offsets?

Edited by Sicarius Miyamoto Winters, 23 December 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[Brody319]

Sicarius Miyamoto Winters, on 23 December 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Hmm you left out some rather important data it seems looking at that spreadsheet:

• Clan UAC/AC shot #s (Only the 2's fire one round per click. All others spread damage across multiple projectiles.).
  
• Possible offsets by quirks on IS chassis. Possible Min/Max values as a result.
  
• Module Offsets?

actually Clan UAC/AC 2s fire 2 shots per click. But Ac2s are garbage all across the board anyway.

[Alaskan Nobody]

The Boz, on 23 December 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Brilliant.

Ah - so you are looking to start an argument - rather than actually try to discuss it.
As there are FAR more polite ways to start it up otherwise - rather than trying to begin it by mocking the other person.

Brilliant.

[SixstringSamurai]

Brody319, on 23 December 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

actually Clan UAC/AC 2s fire 2 shots per click. But Ac2s are garbage all across the board anyway.

Shows how often I use them. LeL.

[KuroNyra]

Sicarius Miyamoto Winters, on 23 December 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Shows how often I use them. LeL.

I'd rather take a LB-X 2 instead of them... Howait, I AM USING ONE! On my Summoner...

[Brody319]

KuroNyra, on 23 December 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'd rather take a LB-X 2 instead of them... Howait, I AM USING ONE! On my Summoner...

I'm so sorry...

[Zolaz]

Clamers dont be upset because you use OP mechs and equipment then people call you out on it. Russ recognizes that Clan tech is better than IS and is ok with it. You will get to continue having an advantage that is backed up by Lore. The advantage just isnt as large as you get in Table Top. Probably because the Clamers here dont fight one on one or fight at a numerical disadvantage. Most of the MWO Clamers dont even know what Zellbriegen is or know that I just mispelled it ... on purpose.

[LordKnightFandragon]

MeiSooHaityu, on 23 December 2014 - 03:23 AM, said:

I was told there would be pictures! Instead there was charts. I feel lied too.

Intreresting thread. To me the Clan weapons vs IS weapons comparison gets kind of muddy. They have so many different characteristics plus when you add quirks on top of that, it becomes difficult to figure out what is truly balanced or not.

I'm not sure if that is a good thing (balanced) or a bad thing (not balanced, but the fact hidden by quirks).

I still feel clan ballistics (A/Cs and Ultras) are a but lacking, but energy and LRMs seem pretty good. I still feel the Clans still have a solid advantage over the IS with SSRMs.

Yeah, pretty much how it is.

IS Get better PPFLD through ACs, GRs and more clumpy missiles alongside faster burn time lasers

Clans get better weight savings, longer burn times and more guns overall that deal slower DPS due to higher heat. Their ballistics basically suck, UACs and crap are junk. They need buffs, not more clan nerfs lol.
Clans have no other really viable options besides Laser vomit...so they use it.

But...clans op....

[KuroNyra]

Zolaz, on 23 December 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

Clamers dont be upset because you use OP mechs and equipment then people call you out on it. Russ recognizes that Clan tech is better than IS and is ok with it. You will get to continue having an advantage that is backed up by Lore. The advantage just isnt as large as you get in Table Top. Probably because the Clamers here dont fight one on one or fight at a numerical disadvantage. Most of the MWO Clamers dont even know what Zellbriegen is or know that I just mispelled it ... on purpose.

Russ recognizes that Clans had more victory in overrall than the Inner Sphere ( the test was made long ago, wich include newbies and trials mech at the time (but not efficient clans mech trials). A few clans mech were availables, and Big Ones weren't part of them. At the time, Clans mech were driven mostly by experienced people who knew how to make there works, and it was if I remember correctly before the quircks.)

We are not upset because "Clans are OPOLOLOLOL", but because guys who know nothing about theses things think they are the Holy Bible against them.

Clans are OP, yeah. And they are already at Terra in CW Quiaff?

Edited by KuroNyra, 23 December 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[DasSibby]

And yet Clanners will still insist that they're balenced with the IS....

(They're close now... but not quite there yet. And yes, some individual Clan mechs themselves desperately need love.)

[Hillslam]

Andi's and Metus's error corrections (and the blue suggestion) folded in on OP. new pic posted. originals still linked.

Edited by Hillslam, 23 December 2014 - 12:30 PM.

[KuroNyra]

DasSibby, on 23 December 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

And yet Clanners will still insist that they're balenced with the IS....

(They're close now... but not quite there yet. And yes, some individual Clan mechs themselves desperately need love.)

There is multiple way to see the Clans mech.

1.
You only take the Stormcrow, the Timber Wolf and the Dire Wolf who are all doing very fine. (The Stormcrow is even better in my eyes than the Timber Wolf)
Completly forgeting the rest. Here, the Clans are "OP" (OLOLOLZ)

2.
You only look at the others and then, you see that some of them are performing... Let's say they hold there ground. Hellbringer hold his ground and is probably the only one working well. (But they are quite rare on the Battlefield.) Or the Mad Dog.
Then you have the others likes the Summoner or the Adder who are underperforming (and a screenshoot showing 1K damage won't proove otherwise, I made 1K of damage with a Locust, yet that thing was at the time not "fine".)
Let's not talk about the Clans Light or are getting ***** by the IS Light.



Most people agree there is still work to do to balance them. But where some idiots want to see them all nerfed to death even since the recent quircks of the Inner Sphere. The other (and only real possible) solution would be to give the Clans also there own kind of quircks making them more viable.
This way they will be on pair with the IS opponent, and when that balance will be reach.

PGI will be able to correctly change the Holy Trinity to still leaving them viable, but not overperforming. (But I have some doubt about that... Basicly, people are saying the Dire Wolf is OP because he can like in the Lore have 50ton of weapons and pack a nice punch... Forgetting his slow speed and his torso twist absolutly awful. But hey, Clans are OP *insert cry here*)


[Redacted]

This "comparaison" picture is very misleading because it completly take out the factor that change everything. The battlefield, and the consequence it implies.
There is also the way the weapon work. (Clans AC/ are rubbish in comparaison to IS ones. Give a clanner the choice between a Clan AC and a IS AC. He will choose the IS AC everytime.)


But who am I kidding. The ones who should read won't read it or will stick to there "NERF CLAAAANNNSSS" position.

Edited by John Wolf, 23 December 2014 - 02:50 PM.
Do not target players.

[Brody319]

Fix the hitboxes on the stormcrow, Fix the rear hitboxes on the Timberwolf. There you go, balance.

[Metus regem]

Hillslam, on 23 December 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Andi's and Metus's error corrections (and the blue suggestion) folded in on OP. new pic posted. originals still linked.

Its looking a lot better, but the heat on the cERPPC is the same on the IS-ERPPC, so that cell should be a wash, I think you used yellow for when they were even. I would still separate normal lasers from ER lasers, as they are different animals, and add in IS ERlas when they become available. I would also go back and adjust the totals, removing the items with out direct compition.

[Lykaon]

MauttyKoray, on 22 December 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

A CERPPC is technically not more powerful.. Yes it does more damage total than an IS ERPPC, but only 10 is done on the contact spot. 2.5 damage spreads each direction from that component with the spread damage being lost if no component exists in that direction. i.e. you hit the armor and 2.5 spreads to the ST but the other 2.5 evaporates.

Well I hit an arm with my I.S. ER-PPC and 10 damage is applied to the arm and the the 5 additional splash damage that I don't have is irrelivent if it's reduced to only 2.5 because it's zero to begin with.

Having 1 fewer critical slot required 1 less ton of weight and the potential to deal 50% more damage as splash seems more powerful to me. (The splash damage mechanics for C ER-PPCs become more and more favorable as your target's size decreases and it's speed increases ie. light mechs hate it.An arm hit that may not be much of a concern instead becomes a 5 point hit to a side torso (XL engines in I.S. lights is S.O.P.) or a solid CT hit packs some leg damage to add insult to injury.

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

• Suppress and Adjust - means the weapon delivers damage over time, giving the shooter the ability to adjust aim and deliver some damage (flight sim pilots love this, FPS guys hate it). Additional trait of suppression of target.

Only the flight sim pilots who fail to recognize that batlemechs lack the agility to capitalize on delivering numberous small damage hits over dropping a single alpha that depletes almost all the target's available armor on a single location.In MWo the favorable circumstances of using weapon group of lasers vs a weapon group of front loaded pinpoint weapons is practicaly nonexistant.The heat to damage output levels for lasers make this "tickle" and run technique a solid failure in strategy for any mech not fast enough to disengage at will.


I would also point out that some of the catagories severley under value some of the advantages of a particular weapon system.

Example the C SRM6 vs I.S. SRM6 the Clan SRMs have significantly more advantages than being lighter and/or smaller because they are not 20% lighter like a clan ER Lrg Laser compared to an I.S. counter part, they are 50% the total weight.This allows for Clan mechs to function well on multiple fronts.IE. a Maddog with 6x SRM and 2X ER-Lrg Lasers compared to an I.S. platform A1 Catapult with only the missile systems and no energy back up weapons and no means of engaging targets outside 270m.The half sized Clan missile systems are a noticable advantage that reaches far beyoun good/bad vs it's I.S. counterparts.