132 replies to this topic

[GI Journalist]

There's a couple of solutions that fit with the game fiction.

One is the option to ransom any mech lost on the field of battle, IE automatically have the option to pay your opponent C-Bills so that you can keep your Mech. That way, the victors still have a way of upgrading their equipment and the losers can keep Mechs that are near and dear to them.

On the otherhand, maybe you decide that it just isn't worth it to keep that Urbie you lost, or you have other better Mechs in your stable.

This would keep the economic drive behind Mercenary battles, without compromising the feel of the BattleTech universe.

[Belrick]

cobrafive, on 23 November 2011 - 02:07 PM, said:

Mechs would have to be so cheap that its trivial to buy a new one, which I don't think is a good idea. You're going to die. A lot. No matter how good you are. And you'll be stuck using the mechs you kill, or can kill, which is a huge penalty to scout-based guys. Plus in a game that basses itself around progression, and customization, losing the work you've put into a "character" can completly kill someone's drive to play further, and the idea that it can be taken away, and quite easily if your a light/medium, really puts a damper on wanting to invest too far into your play style.

As a scout light mech kind of guy, I respectfully and completely disagree. Its not a huge penalty cost to scout-based guys whatsoever. Your merc group would be more than glad to cover the 2 mil c-bills of a scout mech per fight if you are a useful addition to the team. Don't think in terms of "what can I do by myself" think in terms of teams and groups.

Also, losing what you've put into a character or a mech is a huge incentive at diverse and interesting gameplay (see: EVE online) without disenstives to loss that are damaging, its just gonna be "I'm max level, I rented my atlas for 1 month, and so I'll use it every battle for a month".

Sam Slade, on 23 November 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

Bad idea; the by-product of this will be griefing. "See that guy, in the last battle he had 4 ER large lasers, he must go down 'casue I want them. Tie him up with Flamers and we'll take him out" is as weak as it'll get.

Co-ordinated pirate groups will be the end result of a PvP salvage system. Think outside thee BT universe people, and please make that poll a realistic one.

What you call griefing, a reasonable person calls tactics. Maybe you shouldn't boat weapons if you are afraid to lose them like that. There are full loot systems in many Online games, and "Co-ordinated pirate groups" is not the end result. It is a factor, but not the end at all.

Without some sort of risk and reward system, this game will not be as good as it could be. Complaining about "oh mech X will kill my uber boat and so I'll never use it / if I die its bad so I won't risk stuff" is exactly the kind of thinking we want: its the way to prevent mass boating 100 ton battles. Its the way to promote strategic and tactical thought. Its good.

~~~~~

Anyway, some I'm not all talk, how about this as a simple system:

At the end of a round (all mechs that died in a round / battle are lost, btw, also assuming its round based and not fully sandbox) the winner gets:

Random salvage from their own mechs (good chance to recover parts / guns that were lost)

random salvage from enemy mechs (average chance to get stuff)

No need for crews, just sort of a post game screen of stuff that goes to the leader / commander / whatever.

It would be a simple system that enforces risk and reward, without creating "headhunting" for certain mechs or parts.

Just think post Mechwarrior mercenaries mission screen, except the opponents were real people.

[Rhinehart]

I actually like the idea of salvage of chassis and components such as weapons, engines, and other systems. Not every merc had a stock chassis. In fact some mercs had patched together pieces.

Say you salvage a dragon chassis but not the right engine. You have a bigger engine you can put in it which will make it faster, but that will limit either weapons or armor. Or you can opt for a smaller engine which will slow it down some but leave you more room for armor, weaons or maybe extra heat sinks as well.

Custom mechs aren't always the ideal blend or weapons and components made to suit your mechwarrior. Sometimes it's a case of "Ok I have this chassis, this engine, these weapons, what can I do with them?" This was especially true with MW3 when you might end up toting a weapon system wround for two or three missions before you found enough ammo to actually mount it. Or if a weapon was destroyed and you didn't have another one to mount you had to get creative. I always thought this was the most creative area of salvage.

[CG Anastasius Focht]

I'd like to see salvage, and at the very least the ability to send out search partys for my underpants

[Karn Evil]

The suggestions that don't leave salvage as a sure thing make good sense to me. If I know for a fact that knocking the head off of that Atlas and then winning the fight will net me said Atlas, you can bet your bottom C-Bill that I'm going to be packing the biggest chunk of ballistic death I can for the fight.

If, however, salvage is just whatever can be recovered from the battlefield - with a decent chance that the enemy will be able to get a flatbed in there to cart the poor headless Atlas back home after the fight - I'm just going to do my part to make sure the enemy's in as many pieces as possible.

[Red Beard]

IMO, most of you fellas are WAY off on how salvage will be handled in MWO.

Imagine starting a game and you only have 3 pilots in your lance and you have to take a newbie on your team to fill in the last spot. The new guy picks an Atlas. Not only is he a liability because of his inexperience, but, if salvage carries over in some of the ways suggested, he is a walking treasure pile for the other team.

Not only this, but I can see oceans of cheaters that set up "boosting" lobbies to simply "harvest" salvage in order to stockpile.

If you go back to the original interview from 2009, it gives an indirect indication that a pilot may be able to repair his mech in-game, during combat. That said, I have a feeling that most salvage will be put to use only in the battle that is currently taking place. I could be wrong about this, Lord knows I have been before, but I just don't see a balanced way of having salvage "carry over".

[EDMW CSN]

Red Beard, on 25 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

IMO, most of you fellas are WAY off on how salvage will be handled in MWO.

Imagine starting a game and you only have 3 pilots in your lance and you have to take a newbie on your team to fill in the last spot. The new guy picks an Atlas. Not only is he a liability because of his inexperience, but, if salvage carries over in some of the ways suggested, he is a walking treasure pile for the other team.

Not only this, but I can see oceans of cheaters that set up "boosting" lobbies to simply "harvest" salvage in order to stockpile.

If you go back to the original interview from 2009, it gives an indirect indication that a pilot may be able to repair his mech in-game, during combat. That said, I have a feeling that most salvage will be put to use only in the battle that is currently taking place. I could be wrong about this, Lord knows I have been before, but I just don't see a balanced way of having salvage "carry over".

1) Point is we don't know how salvage will be handled.

2) If the new guy picks an Atlas it is his choice and his own fault if he loses it. It is the same for any game out there.
For example if you opt to buy a shotgun and bring it to a map that is designated a "sniper" map with little to no cover, you can expect to have your butt handed on a sliver platter.

It is like me choosing to fly a T3 Tengu in a pvp Drake fleet. I know full well that a combat fit Tengu cost (base tengu hull is easily 600+m, Drake hull is only 30m and cost about 60m+ when combat fitted) is easily 11 to 12 times more than a combat fit Drake. But hey that is mine choice after all.

It's my ISK so I will have to suck it up if the ship turns to a wreck or becomes the primary target everyone shoots first.
Also look at the bright side, if everyone is trying to kill him, you kill them ! The Atlas works as a tank after all.

Barring said that, we will not know how the mech rental system or start package even works.
Perhaps if that Atlas is part of the "starter package", they might not be available for salvage ?


3) As for locked lobby farming. It is nothing new. Many F2P FPS have the same problem, they use alts to power level their main or artificially increase their KDR. Some even use sub accounts to gift to the main since most F2P games will give some sort of starter pack.

You just have to report it, if you suspect the person is boosting his account.
As for gifting main accounts, just lock out starter mechs from being able to gift.



I do have faith in Piranha though. I have to because this is the closest shot I get another MW game in 10 years

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 25 November 2011 - 09:51 PM.

[guardiandashi]

I am going to suggest that chassis loss, is likely to be uncommon to non existant, unless chassis replacement is so easy it is trivial.

with that in mind I suspect the salvage will be more on the lines of:

you win the duel/mission
~1% chance of salvaging one of the enemy chassis (per enemy) "destroyed"
~5-10% chance of salvaging "componants" off enemy mechs, so if the enemy was running say archer, atlas, jenner, centurion lance you are likely to get SOME weapon/s
you might get other "componants" that are supposedly salvaged off the enemies
additionally if its some kind of resource raid you might have a chance to pickup some of what was "captured"

now these salvaged componants may be awarded as "parts or cash"

now to loosers, I suspect there will not be DIRECT loss of the "salvaged parts" IE winners salvaged the atlas's ac20 you are not going to have to scrounge up a replacement ac20 and if the winners salvage the atlas chassis the atlas pilot most likely will NOT loose the atlas without some compensation. there may be some penalty but especially if you have to pay real $ to unlock a chassis that is a lot more harsh than I expect from an avowed policy of all carrots no sticks. unless its something like $5.00 to unlock atlas chassis and then ~8-9 million cbills to buy atlas, and some reduced price or relatively inexpensive to replace a lost chassis.

[Todd O Connor]

I think some sort of balanced system can be developed to eliminate griefing and padding your characters with new accounts and friends who you talk into the game just for salvage while they dont even fight back. I like psycodek's idea of the loot system but how about also having no salvage awarded if the mech is more than two classes below the mech that destroyed it that would eliminate griefing for parts. Obviously a scout/recon mech wont survive too many bursts/shots from an assault mech but can outmaneuver a medium or heavy mech and use jump jets for attack and it's speed to attrit them so it is more of a fair fight and if it wins or the heavy wins then salvage can be awarded. Same for omnimech if it destroys a medium mech then no salvage is awarded. In addition If two player merc teams agree to a full salvage contest under pvp rules say that could work if say 75% of combatants want it and vote for that type of contest winning team gets salvage rights on any mechs knocked out that were not able to retreat off the battlefield.

Todd O' Connor

[Todd O Connor]

I also think part of the fun and danger of being a mechwarrior is losing your mech. That's what the game was based on before the Clan invasion, since the mech you owned was one that was passed down from your grandfather, to your father, to you, and without salvage, money for repairs, you were in a very bad way! Then maybe you would have to head to the game worlds for awhile to get a sponsor to give you a new mech to fight with, like the gladiators of old. Fight your way out of the pits to get back in with a recognized merc group who would watch for new talent. I think that would be cool to have to head to Solaris VII and fight with a beat up patched together mech to earn money and respect again once you were broke just a thought..

[Karn Evil]

I rather hope that's precisely it. If you're hapless on the battlefield, you might just find yourself fighting with a loaned cheapie until you've managed to scrape together the cash to own something again.

I, for one, would probably end up getting half of my fun from that system alone. Lose my mech, goof around for a while in a borrowed machine. Sounds great.

[Red Beard]

[EDMW]CSN, on 25 November 2011 - 09:45 PM, said:

If the new guy picks an Atlas it is his choice and his own fault if he loses it.

This would be the opposite of a team attitude.

[DocBach]

Unfortunately, the reality of online gaming has shown me that not many players you randomly drop with have a team player attitude.

[Belrick]

Complete chassis loss may not be a practical expectation, but if you're mech is blown up, and you don't have to pay a hefty fee to repair it next match, we're gonna have the same problems as other mech games: There is not much of a reason to use anything but the biggest and the baddest mechs.

A steep repair bill for a mech's death will be a great feature. You can keep the chassis but still have to pay a similar price you paid for the mech to repair it. If you cannot repair it, you'll seriously have to consider scrapping it, as it is taking up room in your mechbay.

I'm not sure there is a really practical way to allow people to salvage entire chassis, and salvage of weapons and parts only might just be the most straightforward thing to implement.

[Grimm Wulf]

I picked neither options... and the reason is due to that your talking about a player actually losing their mech and/or weapons/equipment on their mech.

I don't really like the idea of this, at all. Having to spend a lot of time trying to get a hold of your stuff, only to lose it like that is not something that is actually fun. It makes the game not really be a game anymore, and more like work or something. And I do not play games because they are like work, I play games to have fun and enjoy my self, not to feel like I am at work... 40'ish hours a week of work is enough as it is.

Sure, it's realistic and everything, to lose your stuff like that... but when it comes to certain things, realism is not always a good thing when it comes to games. This is one of them.

Here is my suggestion as to what to do. Do it like they did/do it in WAR (Warhammer: Age of Reckoning), atleast the way they did it back when I played the beta of the game (the last 7-8 months befor release).


The system WAR had in place, when it came to looting other people you killed in PvP, was:

1: You could loot the people you killed.

2: You did not actually loot the actual equipment the player had equiped, or in their inventory.

3: The loot you got worked pretty much the same (or simmilar) way as if you had killed a regular NPC enemy. As in: depending on class and level, the corpse of the player got X random loot table/type attatched to it.

This resulted in that if "Player A" killed "Player B", Player A could actually get (random) loot from Player B, but Player B would not lose his actual stuff he had equiped or in his inventory (do not remember what the death penalty was/is in WAR, or if there even was one).

I find this to be a MUCH better alternative, then to actually losing your mech and/or weapons/equipment.

Say NO to games feeling like work, say YES to games being fun!

That is all...

Edit: I don't mind if the "death penalty" is signficant... as in maybe a resonably high repair cost... I just do not like the idea that a player loses their mech or other stuff on it.

That is all... for real this time...

Edited by Grimm Wulf, 26 November 2011 - 01:05 PM.

[Quinn Allard]

I love the idea of salvage, but only if everything else isnt free. For example: Blue Team vs Red Team, a lance each. BT wins salvaging 2/4 chassis (minus any weapon systems that were destroyed), spending 32,000 C-bills on ammo, and 230,000 C-bills on mech repairs. RT losses salvaging 1/4 chassis (minus any weapon systems destroyed), spending 12,000 C-bills on ammo, and 210,000 C-bills on mech repairs. Why the difference? Because the chassis you salvage you pay to have refitted and repaired, not the team that lost the chassis. Also, if a chassis is scrapped (all internals gone, engine melted, etc) then you can salvage the weapons that are in working order, of course paying for basic ammo refill. To jump to another system costs 35k C-bills, to wait 2 weeks for repairs is another 20k C-bills, maybe even 6k C-bills each deployment to pay your Merc lance members (who can spend it on paint schemes, and things to personalize their cockpits like a bobblehead on the dash etc.). You get the picture. A mix of most the MechWarrior games, the TT game, and MechCommander. It could work, making it costs money to jump to other systems for easier wins, sitting out for repairs not helping your faction/unit/house take a planet, and maybe even a Black Market to sell excess stuff. Make the Market Real Time, so an Atlas chassis doesnt show up 'til someone sells one to the Market. Maybe make the BM Real Money (like Diablo 3 is going to do). Heh its just a thought. However, what if your on by yourself with no Lance Mates on? Can you jump to a different system? Use the units Jump Ship? Each pilot gets his own? How many chassis can a jump ship/drop ship hold? What decides who gets the salvage? A dice throw? The Lance Commander? The person who got that last shot in? Set a limit to a units/pilots "garage" at....10? 20? I mean, not everyone is going to run 1 Light and 1 Assault, I know Im not. I loved being able to choose between 30 chassis for whichever one fit the bill. Search and Destroy? Atlas. Recon? Raven. Convoy Escort? Timberwolf. Urban Combat? Thor. Open Range Combat? Take your pick!


Edit: A cool idea would be that after every deployment the unit returns to its homebase. Before it launchs to the next planet/system each pilot chooses 2 chassis to bring. If a mech was recently salvaged it can't be used until 2 weeks have past since they acquired it. Say I get on and noone else is on, so I pick my 2 mechs and jump to another system, I cant enter combat until another lance mate is on. Once he has logged on and choosen his 2 we enter combat. At the end of that engagment we take a penalty (say 10k C-bills) for not deploying with a full lance.....or maybe we get a credit for deploying 2 short??

Edited by Quinn Allard, 26 November 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[Mason Grimm]

Here is my two cents on this...

Due to the fact that there is a limited persistence in the universe (who controls what worlds etc), and added to the fact that death is not permanent (even if you have a gauss hit to the head) I would find it extremely unlikely that salvage would take away from one player and grant to another. (run on sentences much?)

Again, World of Tanks model could be used as a basis. After all, each time you lose a battle you don't lose your tank yes? The same with mechs and equipment could be used. Cost of repairs to get the mech functional again.

YOU COULD ALSO ADD THE FOLLOWING!!!!

If anything I would imagine that the team holding the field would get a random chance at enemy salvage of all "destroyed mechs". Essentially it would randomly take weapons and equipment off whatever mechs were killed in battle BUT not actually strip them from the defeated players.

Eventually the "reality versus enjoyment ratio" has to be balanced. It would be no fun if every time you had a mech shot out from under a pilot that he lost vital equipment (unless he could buy it back with credits he earned or XP). However, as the winner of the battle sometimes its nice to get a little something extra in your stocking at xmas time other than a "Yay, I won 50,000 c-bills and a pat on the back".

I guess you could call it Pseudo-Salvage because you are randomly getting a shot at enemy equipment yet it's not REALLY stripping their mech. Yeah that's it! We'll call it Pseudo-Salvage™. You heard it here first folks!

[Todd O Connor]

I think random loot from a winning battle is a reasonable compromise between the tabletop fun of salvaging, and not making players in a multiplayer game angry with each other. For NPC's it could be something special like in EVE fighting Sansha's gets you sansha loot etc. So if you take down a clan omnimech maybe you get double heat sinks or something cool like that. Take down a Blakist get their tech and so on and so on.

Todd O'connor
11th Atrean Dragoons Erin's Hope
Duchy of Oriente Calloway VI
3048

[Iron Horse]

Ran Ito, on 23 November 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:

I like the idea of salvage a lot. But not in the form presented in the poll. As it's been stated before, no matter how good you are you're going to die a lot. And what if it's due to lag or a disconnect?

I totally agree. Realism vs. fun, like someone mentioned.

[EDMW]CSN, on 23 November 2011 - 08:42 PM, said:

I don't see people quitting in droves when they lost their first cap ship, or a pimp fit Faction BS or T3 strat cruiser or their entire fortunes inside a Freighter. Often the losses are measured in BILLIONS of ISK.

English, pl0x! J/k!

Todd O Connor, on 25 November 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

I also think part of the fun and danger of being a mechwarrior is losing your mech. That's what the game was based on before the Clan invasion, since the mech you owned was one that was passed down from your grandfather, to your father, to you, and without salvage, money for repairs, you were in a very bad way! Then maybe you would have to head to the game worlds for awhile to get a sponsor to give you a new mech to fight with, like the gladiators of old. Fight your way out of the pits to get back in with a recognized merc group who would watch for new talent. I think that would be cool to have to head to Solaris VII and fight with a beat up patched together mech to earn money and respect again once you were broke just a thought..

I agree with this idea, but I think the same effect can be accomplished by expensive repairs, rather than outright loss of 'mech. Go to Solaris to earn cash, MW2-style. If you can also earn specialized chassis there, so much the better! This gives players a reason to think twice before deploying an Atlas in a PUB squad (using the previous example). Can I really afford to replace 44 tons of armor if I lose?

Belrick, on 26 November 2011 - 09:00 AM, said:

Complete chassis loss may not be a practical expectation, but if you're mech is blown up, and you don't have to pay a hefty fee to repair it next match, we're gonna have the same problems as other mech games: There is not much of a reason to use anything but the biggest and the baddest mechs.

A steep repair bill for a mech's death will be a great feature. You can keep the chassis but still have to pay a similar price you paid for the mech to repair it. If you cannot repair it, you'll seriously have to consider scrapping it, as it is taking up room in your mechbay.

I'm not sure there is a really practical way to allow people to salvage entire chassis, and salvage of weapons and parts only might just be the most straightforward thing to implement.

Exactly! I would just add that there should be a low probability of getting parts and chassis from destroyed 'mechs. No negative effect to the loser except repairs, or we will quickly not have servers to play on due to lack of interest by casual players.

I liked the salvage system in MW3 SP. There should be "uber" parts that you can salvage, but are not available to you to buy. But also, no one knows yet if we'll have a 'Mechlab. If they go for the more HeroClix approach (which can't be ruled out I don't think) with a larger or unlimited 'Mech garage, I may change my opinion.

[Jack Deth]

It really depends on the character of the missions. Loosing a defeated mech would be ridiculous if the missions consist of "fight the other guys until they are dead". On the other hand, if missions are scenario based (ie: hold/take this city/base/objective) then permanent mech death becomes more feasible. Is your lance getting trounced? Well then abandon the objective and flee the field. Are you occasionally gonna loose a mech, sure but nowhere near 50% of the time.