287 replies to this topic

[Noesis]

MRBC,
Economy,
Logistics,
Black Market,
Salvage,
Bandit/Pirate Play .....

PGI I think already know this, question is of priorities and timings.

[Alexander Steel]

And making those things *FUN*.

[Noesis]

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

And making those things *FUN*.

+Googleplex

[RustyBolts]

Noesis, on 11 January 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

MRBC,
Economy,
Logistics,
Black Market,
Salvage,
Bandit/Pirate Play .....

PGI I think already know this, question is of priorities and timings.

I agree, but what level of control will PGI have and what level of control will the players have? That will be a fine line that PGI needs to balance.

I think part of the problem is that most players went Merc and not enough went Houses/Clans. What this does is shift the power balance away from the Houses/Clans to the largest Merc units. So where they go, the victories go. This is the opposite of the way it should be since the Houses/Clans should have larger populations and resources. Mercs were for the most part, Nomads who moved around and did not own planets with the exception of a few who displayed the loyalty to a certain house. Now this is lore, but not how PGI has CW.

Maybe when logistics comes out they provide more logistics to House/Clan units and less logistical capability to Mercs.

[Noesis]

RustyBolts, on 11 January 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

Maybe when logistics comes out they provide more logistics to House/Clan units and less logistical capability to Mercs.

That would be an intrinsic part of the economy as the MERCs only help the factions stick flags in planets. Very rarely unless gifted did MERCs maintain ownerships of the planets and would be handed over to their employer as part of the MERC process, at a cost of course, so that they could move onto the next contract.

Though some technological benefits as spoils of war usually came about from this.

Edited by Noesis, 11 January 2015 - 06:35 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Part of the issue is that there are no benefits to going House/Clan and all the benefits to going Merc. When I hit Loyalty Level 20, that's it. A Merc can get 12x the amount of rewards I can as a House Loyalist - 12x. That means that if I get 4 mech bays... a merc can get 48.

It's foolish to be anything but a merc the way they have it set up. In fact many of the 'top tier' groups like Wolves Dragoons may require you to have a certain rank in multiple factions - meaning House Units are essentially screwed, unless you want to just abandon your faction cuz PGI in general seems to want players to treat houses/factions/Clans like pairs of socks.

There are a lot of fundamental design issues here that hopefully get resolved in time.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

MischiefSC, on 11 January 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Part of the issue is that there are no benefits to going House/Clan and all the benefits to going Merc. When I hit Loyalty Level 20, that's it. A Merc can get 12x the amount of rewards I can as a House Loyalist - 12x. That means that if I get 4 mech bays... a merc can get 48.

It's foolish to be anything but a merc the way they have it set up. In fact many of the 'top tier' groups like Wolves Dragoons may require you to have a certain rank in multiple factions - meaning House Units are essentially screwed, unless you want to just abandon your faction cuz PGI in general seems to want players to treat houses/factions/Clans like pairs of socks.

There are a lot of fundamental design issues here that hopefully get resolved in time.

This above

I think for starters there are quite a number of balancing issues between the clans vs innersphere when it comes to the CW beta and we've seen more then enough threads about that and which mechs in question need some immediate attention

but this above is the biggest problem I feel that not only do they get all the loyalty bonuses that loyalists such as myself will never get but they can jump around and cause havoc without any consequence and yet get all the bonuses

[Davers]

Gyrok, on 11 January 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Consider that some units will never change factions regardless...if you like to wander, this would make you consider it far more heavily, and whimsical temporary imbalances would not occur.

Instead imbalances would last much longer.

[Gyrok]

Davers, on 11 January 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

Instead imbalances would last much longer.

Or would not happen at all...and would not be so great when they did...

[MischiefSC]

Mercs need to be able to move around. The fundamental issue comes down to 'Do players get to control the direction/alliances of a faction'.

That's the big one right there. Currently PGI says no - the problem though is that otherwise it's just a big mob war; there's no direction, no focus, no sense of belonging to a military.

Yet by the same token do we want factions run by some sort of player council? That also makes me uncomfortable.

So we have a somewhat clumsy system that still works; treaties are gentlemen agreements between groups big enough to take worlds. Mercs who join to disrupt are only marginally useful; end of the day they'd probably get more done helping the attack but then again if you want to play in Clan mechs as a vacation playing Clan vs Clan instead of Clan vs IS would be the ideal option.

[Dracol]

MischiefSC, on 11 January 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Part of the issue is that there are no benefits to going House/Clan and all the benefits to going Merc. When I hit Loyalty Level 20, that's it. A Merc can get 12x the amount of rewards I can as a House Loyalist - 12x. That means that if I get 4 mech bays... a merc can get 48.

Now this is a very good observation and points to a constructive conversation.

Are the rewards in place for permanent loyalty, faster accumulation of LP and CBills, enough to balance against Mercs being able to gain multiples of the same reward by contracting with different Houses/Clans?

What sort of high rank rewards would be required in the upcoming addition to offset the Mercs ability to gain multiple lower level rewards?

Is the LP cost for the highest rank in a faction obtainable for a Loyalist through average amount of game time while making it a long struggle for those not receiving the best bonus to LP?

Are the LP penalties for activities geared towards a former faction high enough?

Would it be beneficial if each House/Clan offered a reward beyond the current highest on that could only be obtained via permanent?

IMHO, PGI has a great opportunity to reward players who sign on permanently by offering very unique rewards that are reachable by the LP bonus but nearly out of grasp for those taking short term contracts. LP penalties for activities against former employers should be increased as well.

[Tarl Cabot]

Original CW plans had longer contract times and different setups. Heavy discussion on contract lengths and 2/4 month contracts were removed

http://mwomercs.com/...ov-20-feedback/
http://mwomercs.com/...dec-2-feedback/

Seasons, which would have last for 3 months, and heavy penalties for switching listed in other feedbacks.
http://mwomercs.com/...pdate-feedback/

Simply noting that there is both the RP aspect but also the fun aspect. And merc units in general, especially those that are highly competitive, will do what is best for their unit to keep things fresh. If that includes holding a contract so that their members can use their IS or Clan mechs, as well as having a pick at what their opponents will be using, so be it.

There are no real differences between merc and loyalists in MWO at the moment, as any contract can be broken. The other differences between units and pugs is that units will be the ones more likely to do ghost drops.

Now, several Clanners want to put more restrictions on "merc" units? As noted other units, both Loyalties and Merc units, are going more for the general queue instead of CW. CW round 3 is coming up with some changes but putting more restrictions is not the way to go unless you really want CW to become nothing but ghost drops.

A minor faction and/or greater faction lobbies need to go live so the average pug pilot will have a better method of interacting with fellow pilots outside the combat zone (general pug/CW), allowing more grouping while also relaxing the the ability to group outside your unit but in the same minor faction (or greater faction).

On the other side, more experience the general pug community gains on CW can lead to better experiences for all. It may take additional conditions such as destroy specific amount of mechs, which would put a different winkle in how things play out.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

Not to mention that CW is really a numbers game of who can get more attackers or defenders into the cue which is another problem too which I believe PGI mentioned it not intending to be about but that's all it is really with the stupid ghost win mechanic which negates actual battles

[Alexander Steel]

Considering that PGI wants to sell both Clan and IS packages to people ((and considers it a win when they sell both to the same person)) it's absolutely in their best interest to make it so people who want to pay the extra money to own both get to use them.

Hard locked factions or very hard to change factions is bad for business.

[Dracol]

Gyrok, on 11 January 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

The issue lies in the fact that currently, you are not balancing, you are creating imbalances.

Let me pose a hypothetical:

House/Clan A (H/C-A) has 3 attack options: 1 that is IS v Clan, the other 2 are against others within the same faction

On this particular evening, no attacks are being launched against H/C-A. The major units in H/C-A have also worked together to focus their efforts towards the IS v Clan border, leaving the other 2 borders secured with ceasefires.

This has left 1 planet available for all members of the faction to queue up on. Only 180 H/C-A aligned players get to be in a match at a time, the rest are waiting in long queues.

The major units are in a pickle. Their 12-mans are finding matches fairly quickly, but small units and solo members are having a long wait. Since no one is attacking them, that leaves them with one option: Attack a House/Clan that they have a ceasefire with.

But they can't. The major units know that going across the border would be political suicide.

Then along comes the lone wolf Merc unit. They're waiting in the same queue. They get tiered of waiting. They're have a full 12-man team formed up and instead of waiting in the long queue, they drop against the House/Clan that a ceasefire between the major units have been honoring.

They drop some lonely drops against turrets for a bit and then in about 30 minutes time another active queue has started. The solo players and small units who did not sign onto the ceasefire migrate over to the new queue. They now have a shorter wait time, get to enjoy a different variety of CW gameplay, and their overall enjoyment increases. Meanwhile, the major units now have less competition to snag a territory to fight over.

Perhaps Mercs are correcting an imbalance at times? An imbalance of too many players loaded upon too few queues created by lore based unit agreements?

Edited by Dracol, 11 January 2015 - 10:39 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

[/size]
Now this is a very good observation and points to a constructive conversation.

Are the rewards in place for permanent loyalty, faster accumulation of LP and CBills, enough to balance against Mercs being able to gain multiples of the same reward by contracting with different Houses/Clans?

What sort of high rank rewards would be required in the upcoming addition to offset the Mercs ability to gain multiple lower level rewards?

Is the LP cost for the highest rank in a faction obtainable for a Loyalist through average amount of game time while making it a long struggle for those not receiving the best bonus to LP?

Are the LP penalties for activities geared towards a former faction high enough?

Would it be beneficial if each House/Clan offered a reward beyond the current highest on that could only be obtained via permanent?

IMHO, PGI has a great opportunity to reward players who sign on permanently by offering very unique rewards that are reachable by the LP bonus but nearly out of grasp for those taking short term contracts. LP penalties for activities against former employers should be increased as well.

Let's make this clear. Rotating through all the Houses and Clans would get you 12 times the rewards that a loyalist would get.

That's huge. Also the faster rate of accumulation at lower levels vs higher leaves means you can functionally get all the 1-10 rewards at like 5 or 6 factions before you get all the way to 20 in one faction.

That's just bad. Loyalists should get some steep, steep rewards - enough to make up for making 1/12th the overall rewards and their higher ones at vastly slower rates.

[Dracol]

MischiefSC, on 11 January 2015 - 10:40 PM, said:

Let's make this clear. Rotating through all the Houses and Clans would get you 12 times the rewards that a loyalist would get.

That's huge. Also the faster rate of accumulation at lower levels vs higher leaves means you can functionally get all the 1-10 rewards at like 5 or 6 factions before you get all the way to 20 in one faction.

That's just bad. Loyalists should get some steep, steep rewards - enough to make up for making 1/12th the overall rewards and their higher ones at vastly slower rates.

I wonder if anyone has done the math for this?

edit to add: What if the current ranking structure stayed the same, but the reward offered for each level was scaled to the average contract length used to acquire it? So, 1 Mechbay for a person with an average of 1 week contracts, and lets go with 5 mechbays for a person with permanent loyalty status. Will be first to admit does not equalize the 12 v 1 imbalance.

Edited by Dracol, 11 January 2015 - 10:47 PM.

[Gyrok]

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

[/size]
Let me pose a hypothetical:

House/Clan A (H/C-A) has 3 attack options: 1 that is IS v Clan, the other 2 are against others within the same faction

On this particular evening, no attacks are being launched against H/C-A. The major units in H/C-A have also worked together to focus their efforts towards the IS v Clan border, leaving the other 2 borders secured with ceasefires.

This has left 1 planet available for all members of the faction to queue up on. Only 180 H/C-A aligned players get to be in a match at a time, the rest are waiting in long queues.

The major units are in a pickle. Their 12-mans are finding matches fairly quickly, but small units and solo members are having a long wait. Since no one is attacking them, that leaves them with one option: Attack a House/Clan that they have a ceasefire with.

But they can't. The major units know that going across the border would be political suicide.

Then along comes the lone wolf Merc unit. They're waiting in the same queue. They get tiered of waiting. They're have a full 12-man team formed up and instead of waiting in the long queue, they drop against the House/Clan that a ceasefire between the major units have been honoring.

They drop some lonely drops against turrets for a bit and then in about 30 minutes time another active queue has started. The solo players and small units who did not sign onto the ceasefire migrate over to the new queue. They now have a shorter wait time, get to enjoy a different variety of CW gameplay, and their overall enjoyment increases. Meanwhile, the major units now have less competition to snag a territory to fight over.

Perhaps Mercs are correcting an imbalance at times? An imbalance of too many players loaded upon too few queues created by lore based unit agreements?

I do not see it that way at all...

I see it as a rogue faction who hops too often being bored and queueing up to stir up trouble against a unit that is a political ally in game.

This is bad for both sides because:

1) It potentially compromises an agreement causing them to now war against each other unless cooler heads prevail.

or

2) It makes the unit doing it look like arrogant ******, and burns potential bridges for the future. After all, who wants a loose cannon working with them? If I contract you to do a job, you had certainly better do what I ask and nothing more. If you break MY agreements, then you are fired, and forget coming back.

or

3) It makes the unit doing it, and the faction as a whole look incompetent. Especially when ALL parties involved KNOW about the agreement, and one is just disregarding it, while another cannot corral the unit being problematic.

In no way, shape, or form does it appear innocent, or unselfish, and trying to twist it to appear to be so is futile.

In fact, it appears disrespectful of the faction you work for more than anything else. If PGI could implement a system that allowed permanently aligned factions to block temporary contracts from parties who have caused trouble in the past, some units would shortly have no faction to fight for.

So, in other words, my advice to any and all mercenary corps in MWO would be to observe the agreements your faction has made.

How is it that units like SJR and 228th can abide by them...but units like CI cannot? Honor and loyalty are highly regarded, and well looked upon. If I were your unit, I would try to project an atmosphere of honor and loyalty, and try to make things right.

[Redacted]

Edited by John Wolf, 14 January 2015 - 07:37 AM.
Be constructive, that comment was unnecessary

[Tarl Cabot]

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

[/size]
Now this is a very good observation and points to a constructive conversation.

Are the rewards in place for permanent loyalty, faster accumulation of LP and CBills, enough to balance against Mercs being able to gain multiples of the same reward by contracting with different Houses/Clans?

What sort of high rank rewards would be required in the upcoming addition to offset the Mercs ability to gain multiple lower level rewards?

Is the LP cost for the highest rank in a faction obtainable for a Loyalist through average amount of game time while making it a long struggle for those not receiving the best bonus to LP?

Are the LP penalties for activities geared towards a former faction high enough?

Would it be beneficial if each House/Clan offered a reward beyond the current highest on that could only be obtained via permanent?

IMHO, PGI has a great opportunity to reward players who sign on permanently by offering very unique rewards that are reachable by the LP bonus but nearly out of grasp for those taking short term contracts. LP penalties for activities against former employers should be increased as well.

This. If you think about it, Lore-wise Wolfs Dragoons contract had one stipulation in their contract that the Dragoons would not be used to attack their former employer. This would pertain towards minor factions, Kurita contract, next contract is with Ghost Bears, can not attack Kurita planets, which would leave them with CSJ, CW and Rasalhague, iirc. This would be with a completed contract. If the unit breaks a contract then they would be allowed to attack their former employer. There could be other consequences beside the cost of breaking the contract, such as a reduction in pay/loyalties when attacking their former employer.

Of course, I look at the CW at it takes its baby steps and with both player feedback and other items, it will continue to grow.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 11 January 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[RustyBolts]

MischiefSC, on 11 January 2015 - 09:06 PM, said:

Mercs need to be able to move around. The fundamental issue comes down to 'Do players get to control the direction/alliances of a faction'.

That's the big one right there. Currently PGI says no - the problem though is that otherwise it's just a big mob war; there's no direction, no focus, no sense of belonging to a military.

Yet by the same token do we want factions run by some sort of player council? That also makes me uncomfortable.

So we have a somewhat clumsy system that still works; treaties are gentlemen agreements between groups big enough to take worlds. Mercs who join to disrupt are only marginally useful; end of the day they'd probably get more done helping the attack but then again if you want to play in Clan mechs as a vacation playing Clan vs Clan instead of Clan vs IS would be the ideal option.

And this is how I believe almost to the letter. I just think we need something better.