1123 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

lsp, on 02 January 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

You have a clan account, someone who's not a clanner is me. Someone who doesn't own a single clan mech and doesn't have a secret account that he plays clans on.

Whatever.

I run this account far more than my Clan Account. And unlike you I actually know what it's like on both sides. So all that means is I am apparently better informed to speak up. You keep trying to use your personal performance, or lack thereof, in Public Matches as some indicator of balance for the game as a whole, which is why your argument is flawed and fails.

Unlike most people here who seem interested in protecting their epeen or their pet build, I am, and have since CB, been more interested in total game balance, because that is what keeps the game healthy and fun, long term.

Doesn't make me always right, but it sure means my "agenda" is a lot different than yours.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 January 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

Unlike most people here who seem interested in protecting their epeen or their pet build, I am, and have since CB been more interested in total game balance, because that is what keeps the game healthy and fun, long term.

That's not quite true, your usually quite IS biased (not here tho thumbs up!) but what keeps this game healthy is new players....and well the new player experience is almost ..almost the worst of any game in history

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 02 January 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

That's not quite true, your usually quite IS biased (not here tho thumbs up!) but what keeps this game healthy is new players....and well the new player experience is almost ..almost the worst of any game in history

have you read my Summoner thread?

My only anti-clan Bias tends to be the need to give the TW some (minor) nerfs to bring it closer to inline to the rest of MWO.... but that's because it would allow PGI to loosen up the global nerfs ruining 2/3 of the clan mechs.

I don't claim to be unbiased (no one is) or not have blind spots (everyone does). But a you need a strong and balanced mix of both IS and Clan for this CW thing to work.

And a lot better map design.

[EvilCow]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

do I sniff a hint of irony here?

Just a bit

Regardless how intelligently done, quirks are an arbitrary solution and will necessarily open the doors to arguments and fanboism. It is like they renounced to try and balance the games by design rules and decided to go this way.

They should have accepted the clan tech as designed and then balance the CW accordingly, at proper time the IS would have received its own specific new toys.

[Mcgral18]

lsp, on 02 January 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

The thunderbolt is sooo goood, yeah right. Soo good at getting it's torso's blown off because it has terrible hitboxes. The only time I do good in one is when someone ignores me, which in that case it's your fault.

Why is that? I do just fine with Thuds, whether they see me or not.

Fairly small sampling on the 5SS, and tiny on the 9S, but both look fairly promising.


Keep in mind, this was mainly the 25% less heat 5SS, compared to the 15% less heat it currently is:


That 9S can only go up from there. I feel that same 10% nerf the 5SS took is a sound idea.

Still a spectacular buff, only 9 heat per ERPPC, but just a tad less spectacular. A super buff, down from a uber buff.

I like the idea of component specific quirks, which I hope Clan quirks will follow, but PGI can easily implement the above.

Edited by Mcgral18, 02 January 2015 - 11:52 AM.

[Mavairo]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

No, there is EVERYTHING wrong with the 9S. You might notice no clan emblem here? Actually read the relevant parts of the thread. It's returning us to a one mech, one build, all the time meta. IDK, maybe you don't play CW? ; so you don't see it as much in 3x4 drops.

Of course, those who are part of the problem, seldom want to admit there is a problem.


the fact that a large percentage of those complaining about the 9S ARE WEARING IS FACTION TAGS, should be the relevant point here, anyhow.

I'm a Tbolt pilot.
Blow out it's energy carrying torso and watch it cry.
the 9S is abit too good at what it does, and needs to be brought more in line with the others, quirk wise. I'd like to see the heat reduction on ER PPCs drop, to say 30 percent, and raise the Laser heat perks by 10 percent. (yes still a net loss of 10 percent).

The other Tbolts save the 5SS which is in a good place right now, could use a 5 percent buff in their cooling bonuses as well.

Edited by Mavairo, 02 January 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[FupDup]

It would've been nice if the Quirkening hadn't focused almost exclusively on weapon quirks. You know, maybe add an actually noticable level of durability improvement, more agility, sensor bonuses (for scouts, etc.), etc...

But instead, we get less heat on everything, faster cooldowns on everything, and/or longer range on everything.


For the Thud in particular, its dependence on torso weapons means it deserved at least 10-15 (maybe as high as 20) degrees more torso twist radius more than it needed steroid-injected PPCs. Also, more durability, because the mech handles like a brick and toughness is kind of the mech's trademark anyways.

That doesn't mean remove all of the weapon quirks, but it does mean that some mechs should focus on their own certain roles (i.e. tanky/brawly Thunderbolt) instead of making every mech into a long-range DPS platform.

Edited by FupDup, 02 January 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[ZenFool]

So... The 9s has doomed the game with its super rush of "one mech meta Armageddon" and anyone who doesn't believe this is obviously uninformed/bad player/not very bright...

K. There are a couple of things that need to be pointed out over and over again until the nerfers realize what we are saying.

1. The 3 erppc 9s is ONLY good at sniping, and then only if it has plenty of time to cool off after every other volley. It can NOT brawl. It melts compared to many other builds.

2. There is no way to run four of them in a CW drop deck, so whats with the idea that its ruining the game with its "super meta Armageddon one mech to rule them all blah blah blah insert random justification here"?

3. I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that meta is being reinforced because of this one build. I've used more heat efficient brawlers and have seen more than at any other point in the game's history. Builds that are not viable in regular matches become viable(or at least situationally useful) in CW.

4. I wonder if we would be having this conversation if the quirks were on a light mech that can only carry one or an assault mech that has no mobility. As it is, 65 tons is a good filler for a drop deck with enough firepower and mobility to make this a decent(not op...) mech for the first time in its MWO life.

Just because something is widely used doesn't mean you should whackamole it back into oblivion....Please reserve your hate for any number of actual issues this game has.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Balance-wise, the primary issue here is the degree of buffing/nerfing received.

A 50% heat reduction alteration should not have ever been considered for initial injection into the game, from a game design standpoint. I remain baffled that PGI still makes initial changes to the game in such a large degree and then modulates them down, when it would be much more effective and much less likely to upset any players to make smaller changes and then increment them up where necessary. While it is good that the developers do fix things after putting them in, it should not be as much of an issue as it currently is and has been in the past.

Even restricted to the right arm, the sheer degree of buffing to the ERPPC on that thud is insane, particularly considering that the largest buff is applied to the as-designed primary drawback of energy weapons- that they generate a lot of heat.

I move that the energy heat and ERPPC heat quirks on the 9S be reduced at least to the point of being equivalent to those on the Awesome, which is intended to carry multiple PPCs in one form or another (depending on the variant), possibly a little bit further. Not specifically because I view that Thud in particular as being too strong (Not that I'm saying I do or don't...), but because 1) the degree of the quirk involved is much too large to be game-design practical and 2) there is not supposed to be a better PPC caddy than the Awesome (or at least, the PPC-carrying versions). PPCs are who it is, they're what it does.

As far as clan 'mechs go, could we please get engine damage stuff implemented ASAP? Please? I know it's currently in consideration at the very least, if not planning. This will reduce the power of the notoriously durable high-wide-sidetorso 'mechs when it hits- those being the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf and to a lesser degree the Kit Fox, mostly- and also affect all other 'mechs, and so should really be implemented before any chassis-specific alterations are looked into.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 02 January 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Zephonarch II]

I demand a fully unbiased opinion of our IS Thunderbolts being OP coming from a non-Clanner! Right now! Typical, hering this from a Ghost Bear Clanner. There are several meta out there, what happens if players starting flocking to the CTF-4X because of its AC5 quirks? Are we going to nerf them too? And in consideration, nerf Clans. The game is fine. I remember when the PPCs were nerfed because some Stalkers equipped 6 of them and meta-snipered across maps. If we nerf the Tbolts, everyone will just flock to another meta-capable IS mech, or simply go Clanner. And in the worst case, we'll stop seeing specialist builds. That sucks. Because it makes the game interesting. Stop complaining, and do what Stefka said; deal with it.

Serve enemies extra LBX10 with the ON1-M, more Dakka with the CTF-2X, swerve attention to the AWS-8Q. That's 15 tons heavier than the Tbolt giving room for more guns but it's left with its main flaw, is clear; it's bulky. And often it's slow at 60k/h. Unless you bought a 9M. There are more mechs with other quirks people are probably under-valuing here.

In the worst case, just focus fire and coordinate with your team's movements. Use C3(slave unit) or Team Speak 3. I don't, but the fews times I have it helped.

[Kensaisama]

Zephonarch II, on 02 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

I demand a fully unbiased opinion

That my friend will never happen.

[Zephonarch II]

Kensaisama, on 02 January 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

That my friend will never happen.

And that's your bias. Unacceptable!

Edited by Zephonarch II, 02 January 2015 - 12:21 PM.

[Ultimax]

Ghost Badger, on 02 January 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

The IS doesn't need an overquirked Thunderbolt.

9S (65T)

Fires 3x ER PPCs

Ghost heat total = 63.9
- 50% = 31.95 heat

Result = 31.95 heat for 30 damage
Cost = 21 Tons of weapons (& 8 tons of extra heatsinks)

9S has 18 DHS and dissipates at 3.59 H/S with a heat cap of 73.4

STD 260 Engine for 71 KPH


Hellbringer (65T)

Fires 2x CERPPCs

Total Heat = 30

Result = 30 heat for 30 damage
Cost = 14 Tons of weapons (& space for 14 T of extra DHS)

Has 24 DHS (and ECM) and dissipates 4.55 H/S with a heat cap of 83.5

Clan XL 325 for 89 kph



The 9S

• has better pinpoint
  
• has slightly better velocity
  
• has higher RoF for more DPS

The HBR

• has better cooling
  
• is significantly faster (+18kph, or roughly 25% faster)
  
• is much more maneuverable with better agility, torso twist speeds, etc
  
• has ECM
  
• has a full shield side
  
• has a higher heat cap for more alphas before shutting down

These two mechs & builds are roughly comparable & the HBR has more options to add things like a targeting computer or back up weapons for close range.

The 9S has a few edges over the HBR here, but the HBR has several more over the 9S.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 January 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

You're comparing a ghost-activating IS 30 point alpha strike to a non-ghost heat 20 point alpha with 10 points of splash.

Compare it to an IS pilot who fires in a group of 2, then 1. Take away the ghost heat.

Also, if that's the case, I'm shocked we don't find teams of hellbringers dominating, or, perhaps more tellingly, people screaming about it here on the forums.

It's a fair point though...makes me wonder why we don't see more of this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6e9a5ff1fe7a258

As a response to this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3e71c1634e2219f

Edited by Ghost Badger, 02 January 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[Ultimax]

Ghost Badger, on 02 January 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

You're comparing a ghost-activating IS 30 point alpha strike to a non-ghost heat 20 point alpha with 10 points of splash.

Yes, and the HBR has less pinpoint but still does 30 damage to the target.

That's one of the 9S advantages in the comparison, what it loses vs. the HBR is a lot of speed, no ECM, no full shield side and generally lower cooling (and even lower if you go bigger on engine).


So the point is this one specialist mech, just barely edges out an equal tonned clan Hellbringer in some areas but that same Hellbringer has advantages against the 9S as well.


That's what being roughly balanced but not exactly the same should look like.

Ghost Badger, on 02 January 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Compare it to an IS pilot who fires in a group of 2, then 1. Take away the ghost heat.

Yes, it's less heat but you now no longer have 30 points hitting a single spot on the enemy - which means it's no longer really an advantage vs. splash PPCs and you have to hit the target twice as well as expose yourself to more return fire.


That's a fair trade off.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 January 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[Ultimax]

Ghost Badger, on 02 January 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Also, if that's the case, I'm shocked we don't find teams of hellbringers dominating, or, perhaps more tellingly, people screaming about it here on the forums.

There are some players who don't like it when a mech outshines one of their favorite pet mechs.

So they will bring that agenda to the forums endlessly.




Another reason is that people aren't often willing to sit down and be objective, or look at the math. They react with emotion and not logic.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 January 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 02 January 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

It would've been nice if the Quirkening hadn't focused almost exclusively on weapon quirks. You know, maybe add an actually noticable level of durability improvement, more agility, sensor bonuses (for scouts, etc.), etc...

But instead, we get less heat on everything, faster cooldowns on everything, and/or longer range on everything.


For the Thud in particular, its dependence on torso weapons means it deserved at least 10-15 (maybe as high as 20) degrees more torso twist radius more than it needed steroid-injected PPCs. Also, more durability, because the mech handles like a brick and toughness is kind of the mech's trademark anyways.

That doesn't mean remove all of the weapon quirks, but it does mean that some mechs should focus on their own certain roles (i.e. tanky/brawly Thunderbolt) instead of making every mech into a long-range DPS platform.

this. 1000x this.
Increase the Thud's twist, and tank up the IS and Amor on it's torsos. It was always known as a hot chassis, no reason to make it run 3 ERPPC while eating ice cream, while a mech like the Summoner, noted for it's near inability to overheat struggles to stay remotely cool.

Make it tough as crap and reward those who use if for what it should be, a CQB brawler, with SOME long range potential. You want a sniper? Play a Jagermech. That's kind of part of the concept of ROLES people.

ZenFool, on 02 January 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

So... The 9s has doomed the game with its super rush of "one mech meta Armageddon" and anyone who doesn't believe this is obviously uninformed/bad player/not very bright...

K. There are a couple of things that need to be pointed out over and over again until the nerfers realize what we are saying.

1. The 3 erppc 9s is ONLY good at sniping, and then only if it has plenty of time to cool off after every other volley. It can NOT brawl. It melts compared to many other builds.

2. There is no way to run four of them in a CW drop deck, so whats with the idea that its ruining the game with its "super meta Armageddon one mech to rule them all blah blah blah insert random justification here"?

3. I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that meta is being reinforced because of this one build. I've used more heat efficient brawlers and have seen more than at any other point in the game's history. Builds that are not viable in regular matches become viable(or at least situationally useful) in CW.

4. I wonder if we would be having this conversation if the quirks were on a light mech that can only carry one or an assault mech that has no mobility. As it is, 65 tons is a good filler for a drop deck with enough firepower and mobility to make this a decent(not op...) mech for the first time in its MWO life.

Just because something is widely used doesn't mean you should whackamole it back into oblivion....Please reserve your hate for any number of actual issues this game has.

lolz. sub 3 second cooldown, ice water cooling and no minimum range, along with 30 pts PP-FLD kind of belies the claim that the 9S is "only good at sniping".

GGclose?

[AlmightyAeng]

Ultimatum X, on 02 January 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

There are some players who don't like it when a mech outshines one of their favorite pet mechs.

So they will bring that agenda to the forums endlessly.




Another reason is that people aren't often willing to sit down and be objective, or look at the math. They react with emotion and not logic.

Still, the main argument of this thread isn't that the 9S is too OP compared to Clans...it's a complaint that it's a front-runner among IS mechs and making for incredibly stale play, because it can play at clan ranges more effectively than other IS mechs...and is a bit of a crutch in that regard.

Comparing it to a hellbringer and saying "Oh look, a mech that's finally on par with a clan mech" isn't telling people anything new. People have compared the Trinity (and sometimes hellbringers) favorably to IS mechs all along.

INB4 "CLAN is OP" vs "NERF IS!" spawns on this thread.

[mogs01gt]

Kind of wish I never got rid of m Tbolt. ******* thing ran hot as hell!!!

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghost Badger, on 02 January 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

You're comparing a ghost-activating IS 30 point alpha strike to a non-ghost heat 20 point alpha with 10 points of splash.

Compare it to an IS pilot who fires in a group of 2, then 1. Take away the ghost heat.

Also, if that's the case, I'm shocked we don't find teams of hellbringers dominating, or, perhaps more tellingly, people screaming about it here on the forums.

It's a fair point though...makes me wonder why we don't see more of this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6e9a5ff1fe7a258

As a response to this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3e71c1634e2219f

for one thing it overlooks things like RoF and Projectile Speed, two other factors of import. Also, the Hellbringer can't mount the energy as high (don't think anything but a King Crab or K2 can) to the point at range you can fire the ERPPCs on the TDR's right shoulder but literally be unable to be hit back

Ultimatum X, on 02 January 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

Yes, and the HBR has less pinpoint but still does 30 damage to the target.

That's one of the 9S advantages in the comparison, what it loses vs. the HBR is a lot of speed, no ECM, no full shield side and generally lower cooling (and even lower if you go bigger on engine).


So the point is this one specialist mech, just barely edges out an equal tonned clan Hellbringer in some areas but that same Hellbringer has advantages against the 9S as well.


That's what being roughly balanced but not exactly the same should look like.






Yes, it's less heat but you now no longer have 30 points hitting a single spot on the enemy - which means it's no longer really an advantage vs. splash PPCs and you have to hit the target twice as well as expose yourself to more return fire.


That's a fair trade off.

or simply sit back and poke the right shoulder up and let the invisible wall effect absorb the return fire. Sure, it's only 2 er ppc, but you can spam them indefinitely.

Ultimatum X, on 02 January 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

There are some players who don't like it when a mech outshines one of their favorite pet mechs.

So they will bring that agenda to the forums endlessly.




Another reason is that people aren't often willing to sit down and be objective, or look at the math. They react with emotion and not logic.

nice try at a dig, though.