1123 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

kapusta11, on 07 January 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

After firing 3 times DPS drops by half because of low dissipation, a bit too high price for only 20 FLD.

No it doesn't. The ERPPC has to cycle, and in the 3.6 to 4 seconds it takes to cycle you've lost between 17 and 19 heat.

The target will be dead or severely wounded before you have to worry about firing only one ERPPC.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 07 January 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[kapusta11]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 January 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

No it doesn't. The ERPPC has to cycle, and in the 3.6 to 4 seconds it takes to cycle you've lost between 17 and 19 heat.

The target will be dead or severely wounded before you have to worry about firing only one ERPPC.

Yes, my mistake, it is indeed pretty heat efficient, while dealing only 20 damage.

[Gyrok]

kapusta11, on 07 January 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Yes, my mistake, it is indeed pretty heat efficient, while dealing only 20 damage.

20 Damage for 15 heat compared to AC20 which is 20 damage for 7 heat.

20 damage 15 heat < 20 damage 7 heat

2xERPPC weigh 14 tons = AC20 weighs 14 tons

ERPPC no ammo > AC20 ammo

810 m range > 270 m range

1050 m/s > 650 m/s

Show me where the ERPPCs were bad again? Based on the AC20 comparison, they win 3 categories, tie in one and lose one...

[Y E O N N E]

kapusta11, on 07 January 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Yes, my mistake, it is indeed pretty heat efficient, while dealing only 20 damage.

12 'Mechs with two ERPPCs will wreck face pretty damn hard.

[Koniks]

Kirkland Langue, on 07 January 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Actually, if a Mech is "only OP in CW" - that's more an indicator that it is the MAP or the GAMEMODE that are broken, not the mech.

Plus, CW doesn't match players upon skill. It's basically impossible to make a determination about whether a mech is OP or not in CW based upon wins or performance. Probably the only way to measure if something is OP or not in CW is frequency of use.. and then you aren't really measuring whether a Mech is OP or not - instead what you are doing is measuring the perception of whether a mech is OP or not.

No, a mech being OP in CW doesn't mean it's only the mode. or the maps Why? Because there's no Elo matching, so it could be player skill. And there are no restrictions on drop deck composition for any single wave, only a maximum tonnage restriction for the whole drop, so it could just be that taking 12 of 1 mech variant and loadout that is perfectly designed for 1 strategy is both possible and desirable. This has potential to skew results.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Mizeur, on 07 January 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

No, a mech being OP in CW doesn't mean it's only the mode. or the maps Why? Because there's no Elo matching, so it could be player skill. And there are no restrictions on drop deck composition for any single wave, only a maximum tonnage restriction for the whole drop, so it could just be that taking 12 of 1 mech variant and loadout that is perfectly designed for 1 strategy is both possible and desirable. This has potential to skew results.

What is your point with this paragraph? Are you trying to claim the 9S is OP BECAUSE of its success in CW, or are you you agreeing with the person that you quoted that its success in CW is not an indication of its OPness?

Further, if taking 12 variants of 1 mech is the ultimate/most viable tactic, then, yes, there is a problem with the maps and modes (or rather, a problem with the lack of variation of such). There are/ave been enough CW drops to iron out the variations of player skill and groupings.

[Yokaiko]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 January 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

12 'Mechs with two ERPPCs will wreck face pretty damn hard.

So does 12 of anything.

Nerf teamwork

[Y E O N N E]

Yokaiko, on 07 January 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

So does 12 of anything.

Nerf teamwork

I dunno, 12 Mist Lynx with only flamers sounds like it would be pretty awful.

In all seriousness, I wonder how close the matches would be on Boreal if, say SJR went up against Lords, and they swapped sides every fee matches with the IS side bringing the comp TDR-9S with 3x ERPPC and the Clan side bringing HBR with 2x C-ERPPC, ECM, and 24 DHS. Or bringing TBRs with a similar payload. Would a 30-point alpha make all the difference? Theoretically, it lets the IS team use 33% less 'Mechs to achieve the same damage, affording greater positional flexibility.

Would make for one hell of a fight to watch, that's for sure.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 07 January 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Koniks]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 07 January 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

What is your point with this paragraph? Are you trying to claim the 9S is OP BECAUSE of its success in CW, or are you you agreeing with the person that you quoted that its success in CW is not an indication of its OPness?

Further, if taking 12 variants of 1 mech is the ultimate/most viable tactic, then, yes, there is a problem with the maps and modes (or rather, a problem with the lack of variation of such). There are/ave been enough CW drops to iron out the variations of player skill and groupings.

You should read the quote I was replying to. Someone posted that if a mech is OP in CW not the other queues, then the problem is the game mode, not the mech.

That's not the case. It could be the mech. It could be the mode. It could be something else. The non-CW queues have factors that can mask a mech being OP.

Edited by Mizeur, 07 January 2015 - 06:26 PM.

[Brody319]

kapusta11, on 07 January 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Yes, my mistake, it is indeed pretty heat efficient, while dealing only 20 damage.

20 damage + occasional 10.
12 thunderbolts
240 damage + 120 sometimes.

Damage per second of 12 of them is like 75.

[Jolly Llama]

I can't believe that this threadnaught of nerf whining is still going on.

[ApolloKaras]

geodeath, on 07 January 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

I can't believe that this threadnaught of nerf whining is still going on.

Indeed. I still want to see what other viable long range platforms the IS has. I mean we could be boating ER L.....

[Davers]

Saxie, on 07 January 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

Indeed. I still want to see what other viable long range platforms the IS has. I mean we could be boating ER L.....

Mcgral18 already told us when I asked what IS mech is the IS's Timberwolf after the Thud gets nerfed. His response is AC/5 Dragons and dual gauss Jagers.

[Deathlike]

Davers, on 07 January 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

Mcgral18 already told us when I asked what IS mech is the IS's Timberwolf after the Thud gets nerfed. His response is AC/5 Dragons and dual gauss Jagers.

Well, it is pretty accurate. Still, if you nerf the Thunderbolt-9S slightly by reducing the overall ERPPC benefit from 50% to 40% in ERPPC heat generation, it shouldn't make it as crazy as it is now. 7.5 heat for ERPPC is actually worse than the height of the ERPPC meta (the lowest value that PPCs ever got was 8 heat, ERPPCs was @ 11 heat).

Edited by Deathlike, 07 January 2015 - 10:12 PM.

[Navid A1]

Deathlike, on 07 January 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

Well, it is pretty accurate. Still, if you nerf the Thunderbolt-9S slightly by reducing the overall ERPPC benefit from 50% to 40% in ERPPC heat generation, it shouldn't make it as crazy as it is now. 7.5 heat for ERPPC is actually worse than the height of the ERPPC meta (the lowest value that PPCs ever got was 8 heat).

That's why you can be sure that no more than 2 minutes of thinking have been put on figuring out the quirks for each mech. And only on the stock load-out.

[Deathlike]

Navid A1, on 07 January 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

That's why you can be sure that no more than 2 minutes of thinking have been put on figuring out the quirks for each mech. And only on the stock load-out.

Well, there are potentially two people you can blame (well, technically a 3rd is possible).

There's the man who shall not be named. There's also a man who works above the man who shall not be named that is taking the reins).

There's also the man who has "pet mechs" and doesn't really consider the impact of the quirks.

So, you have your choices.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 07 January 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

Well, it is pretty accurate. Still, if you nerf the Thunderbolt-9S slightly by reducing the overall ERPPC benefit from 50% to 40% in ERPPC heat generation, it shouldn't make it as crazy as it is now. 7.5 heat for ERPPC is actually worse than the height of the ERPPC meta (the lowest value that PPCs ever got was 8 heat).

During the ER PPC meta, every single mech was able to fire them at that heat cost.


Not one single variant with bad geometry.


What was the velocity during the height of ER PPCs at that time? Was it 1200m/s?

Because that's the speed the 9S fires them at.




Ultimately, the main undercurrent of the griping is that ONE specific IS Heavy mech can out ER PPC snipe clan equivalents.


Even though they can get close to the output, have clan XL, have omni-pods, some can have JJs, some can have ECM, have better hitboxes, faster speed, more build options etc,.


The complaints stem from the fact that an IS Heavy dares to compete at the level of good clan mechs.


I didn't see these, apparently concerned players, piping up much when they were enjoying massively larger laser alphas in what is still predominantly a laser meta, at much further ranges for .. what, 6 months?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 January 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[Navid A1]

Ultimatum X, on 07 January 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

During the ER PPC meta, every single mech was able to fire them at that heat cost.
...

At least there was a lot of chassis choices back then... ERPPC meta is still here... however the chassis is now limited to one.

Ultimatum X, on 07 January 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

...
Not one single variant with bad geometry.
...

Bad Geometry can be rectified with 15-20% damage reduction to armor (if PGI can implement that) and HP buffs to internals.
one of the main characteristics of TDR was being a tough nut to crack.

Ultimatum X, on 07 January 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

...
Ultimately, the main undercurrent of the griping is that ONE specific IS Heavy mech can out ER PPC snipe clan equivalents.


Even though they can get close to the output, have clan XL, have omni-pods, some can have JJs, some can have ECM, have better hitboxes, faster speed, more build options etc,.
...

out of what you mentioned only clan XL is a true advantage. PPFLD>ECM. PPFLD>JJ.
having omnipods means you have options (it creates all rounders). all rounders can not compete against purpose built mechs in their field of specialty. and the most superior field of specialty (in MWO at least) is PPFLD.

Ultimatum X, on 07 January 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

...
The complaints stem from the fact that an IS Heavy dares to compete at the level of good clan mechs.
...

Its not just the clan mechs. 6 PPC stalker could also compete at the levels of good clan mechs... but you wont see it around anymore.



There is one thing though. TDR-9S (being an over-quirked mech) is only dangerous when stacked more than 6 or 7. less than that and you can defeat them. It is less of an issue in public queues.

Edited by Navid A1, 07 January 2015 - 10:38 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 07 January 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

During the ER PPC meta, every single mech was able to fire them at that heat cost.

I put out the numbers... the ERPPC did 11 heat at worst at one point (IIRC). That was pretty damn generous then. 7.5 is giving away epic awesome lol numbers.

Quote

Not one single variant with bad geometry.

The Cataphract didn't have the hoverjet problems then, but they were the ideal mechs to take for that purpose previously.

Quote

What was the velocity during the height of ER PPCs at that time? Was it 1200m/s?

2000m/s. Yes, they went at the speed Gauss happens to be now.

Quote

Because that's the speed the 9S fires them at.

Nope. Not even close. 1400m/s was one previous nerf, swapping values between both ERPPC and Gauss values. I remember the dark days of the man who shall not be named. I had suggested at one point swapping the values (Gauss was @ 1500m/s at that time too).

Quote

Ultimately, the main undercurrent of the griping is that ONE specific IS Heavy mech can out ER PPC snipe clan equivalents.

Simply readjust the quirks on it. If the velocity has to be nerfed a bit, so be it. I'd rather have its heat nerfed.

Quote

Even though they can get close to the output, have clan XL, have omni-pods, some can have JJs, some can have ECM, have better hitboxes, faster speed, more build options etc,.

???

Quote

The complaints stem from the fact that an IS Heavy dares to compete at the level of good clan mechs.

TBH, the quirk for just that variant is technically out of whack even amongst its own variants.

Quote

I didn't see these, apparently concerned players, piping up much when they were enjoying massively larger laser alphas in what is still predominantly a laser meta, at much further ranges for .. what, 6 months?

I think that is due in part of having the ERPPC meta for so long, that we have forgotten the fun of lasers. Now we have coined "laservomit". I'm pretty sure many of us are kinda done with wanting that to stay that way, but that actually involves making PPCs and ERPPCs useful for both Clan and IS without relying SOLELY on quirks.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 January 2015 - 10:31 PM.

[pwnface]

Can we just move TDR-9S heat generation quirk to 40% instead of 50% and call it a day? It isn't super out of balance as all these QQing threads suggest, a slight increase in heat will make it still potent but less people will cry about it.