472 replies to this topic

[Gorgo7]

"Really? You reported him for stating an opinion, in clear language, with viable points, and without personal insults? Dude, you need to go take a chill, relax, get a beer, get laid, get SOMETHING and calm down. Its a game, and in the end, it is all meaningless because when they take this from BETA to FINAL, THEY ARE GOING TO RESET THE MAP AND ALL OF THIS WORK AND SWEAT AND QQ WILL BE MEANINGLESS!!!!"

Thanks for responding to a post that's eight days old.
Ha! He's hasn't been sticking his head in here recently has he? (I should never have posted this reply)
Mission accomplished!
You seem to be enjoying the conversation.

Keep it in the ten ring.

Edited by Gorgo7, 12 January 2015 - 06:41 PM.

[Paramemetic]

Harathan, on 12 January 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Don't know about that, I was on the Marik border most of yesterday. If Liao has the numbers on us now, I'm not sure what the problem is with tar pitting - you guys did it to us when we had the numbers over you, so clearly some in Liao think its a valid tactic.

Never once have heard about Liao organizing to tar pit or sandbag or whatever. WoLs as a rule wouldn't bother because we long since gave up on caring about planets, they mean nothing and the cards are stacked against us, might as well have fun with the gameplay and not the pixel map UI.

Hell, it's usually all we can do to prevent our overeager newbirds from running suicidally into a blob, you think we can get people to sit for 30 minutes and not shoot robots? We can barely avoid shooting each other.

wanderer, on 12 January 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

I actually was in a match where we realized they were buttoning up at around 30ish attackers destroyed,so we deathballed up and just rolled them back to their drop points, leaving a light or two on approaches to pick off anything that tried to sneak through. Likely ended the game 10 minutes earlier than they wanted us to in the process.

If they opened the gates and lost 30 mans, they weren't tarpitting in the traditional sense, so that was a different scenario of "oh, our attack is failing, **** it" rather than the very intentional "we need to make this planet yellow, so we're going to open the first gate at the 15 minute mark (if we're feeling generous)."

[MischiefSC]

Paramemetic, on 12 January 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

Never once have heard about Liao organizing to tar pit or sandbag or whatever. WoLs as a rule wouldn't bother because we long since gave up on caring about planets, they mean nothing and the cards are stacked against us, might as well have fun with the gameplay and not the pixel map UI.

Hell, it's usually all we can do to prevent our overeager newbirds from running suicidally into a blob, you think we can get people to sit for 30 minutes and not shoot robots? We can barely avoid shooting each other.



If they opened the gates and lost 30 mans, they weren't tarpitting in the traditional sense, so that was a different scenario of "oh, our attack is failing, **** it" rather than the very intentional "we need to make this planet yellow, so we're going to open the first gate at the 15 minute mark (if we're feeling generous)."

Been tar pitted by Liao units, often mixed pugs, a lot of times when running in a 12man or good syncdrop. They get steamrolled out of the first attack and turtled up, generally talking trash.

It was early on though and units/people move around a lot. had it happen on every single front, IS vs IS and IS vs Clan. Not something you can hold against a 'faction'. It comes up when you have people in a match they don't feel they have any chance to win. Personally I think any match can be won with effort and focus but I'm a bit of an optimist that way. I've won plenty of pug vs premade matches, including against some big names, doing that. Even with 2 wasted waves. I've lost 2 mechs early then hidden in an Atlast through the whole 3rd wave, powered down, then when the rest of the team made a slow push out Beta I snuck up the rest of the way and literally blew Omega out solo with a D-DC. I've tried it less successfully other times but that one time was enough to make me hopeful every time if you're with people even vaguely willing to work together.

[Grynos]

MischiefSC, on 12 January 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

Been tar pitted by Liao units, often mixed pugs, a lot of times when running in a 12man or good syncdrop. They get steamrolled out of the first attack and turtled up, generally talking trash.

It was early on though and units/people move around a lot. had it happen on every single front, IS vs IS and IS vs Clan. Not something you can hold against a 'faction'. It comes up when you have people in a match they don't feel they have any chance to win. Personally I think any match can be won with effort and focus but I'm a bit of an optimist that way. I've won plenty of pug vs premade matches, including against some big names, doing that. Even with 2 wasted waves. I've lost 2 mechs early then hidden in an Atlast through the whole 3rd wave, powered down, then when the rest of the team made a slow push out Beta I snuck up the rest of the way and literally blew Omega out solo with a D-DC. I've tried it less successfully other times but that one time was enough to make me hopeful every time if you're with people even vaguely willing to work together.

As far as tar pitting, WoL does not do it by any means, we like to kill robots, or die trying.
In regards to your last paragraph, powering off trying to play sneaky while enemies are focused elsewhere is not a bad thing, as long as you stay inbounds. I have seen that done a couple of times , perhaps it was you, I do not remember. There are always little nuisances in CW.

[Will HellFire]

Dropping against turrets is boring. You only get a tap in the back, a good word and a few LP. No excitement, no fun.

All the Armchair General arguments are pointless. This is a game, and it should be about fun.

Fact is if people think they are being treated unfairly and are not having fun, they will spend their time with a different game. And then you Davions will get 100% turret drops because none would be playing....and that seems to be exactly what you want.

[MischiefSC]

Grynos, on 13 January 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

As far as tar pitting, WoL does not do it by any means, we like to kill robots, or die trying.
In regards to your last paragraph, powering off trying to play sneaky while enemies are focused elsewhere is not a bad thing, as long as you stay inbounds. I have seen that done a couple of times , perhaps it was you, I do not remember. There are always little nuisances in CW.

Nah man, I was in an Atlas. I've done it in both Alpha and Beta channels. Just get tucked in (while in bounds) out of sight and power down. STEALTH ATLAS FTW.

Going out of bounds is functionally cheating. It should kill you and doesn't right now; that's exploiting a bug.

You guys need to practice getting over the gates. It leaves me unsure of the stability of the universe when there's l33t hax for exploiting that are not actually cheating that Goons are not using and don't know about.

You're damaging my faith in the natural order of the internets. Do you even EVE Minerbump?

[Scoops Kerensky]

[Harathan]

Will HellFire, on 13 January 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

This is a game, and it should be about fun.

And fun is what you say it is, yes? Nobody else's idea of fun counts? Glad we cleared that up.

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

Harathan, on 13 January 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

And fun is what you say it is, yes? Nobody else's idea of fun counts? Glad we cleared that up.

Harathan Logic:

OK Fun :

Stalling tactics, tarpitting, wasting other people's time, contributing to a frustrating CW gamestate

Not OK Fun:

Spawn camping to end the match ASAP, contributing to a frustrating CW gamestate

Tactics:

Sitting around for 30 minutes avoiding fighting, a "Delaying Action"

Not Tactics:

Spawn camping to end the match quicker, "Rushing the Beachhead"

This seems hypocritical, right? Both of these time based tactics are effective, but also are built to frustrate the other team (as well as have some sort of "real life war" comparison). Frustrated players don't tend to stick around and play, which is bad for the game's long term outlook. Can't we all just agree that both of these are a **** thing to do, and whether or not you partake (as long as it's in the game) is a personal choice to frustrate, and hope that PGI fixes both these issues one way or another? Wouldn't it be great if we could have true Community Warfare with all it's fixings, without "wasting peoples time" or "spawn camping" as tactics both effective and considered legitimate?

Honestly, I'd really like to be playing this game in 5 years, so I feel like dumb optimism for fixing the issues that frustrate a lot of people, and turning those frustrations into better features (especially in a gamemode that is in Beta), isn't entirely misplaced.

Edited by MadWOPR, 13 January 2015 - 03:22 PM.

[Pit]

This latest tactic of stalling the defending twelve man by deliberately avoiding engaging for the maximum length of time possible, so ghost drops can get victories on the planet in the background is pretty despicable. Meta Game tactics are fine in the real game, but this a beta. You literally have NOTHING to gain by shooting at turrets, I personally don't care how many planets we lose, just so long as people actually care when they get into a match vs real people. This new "strategy" is just wasting everyone's time.

The only solution I see to this is completely removing the LP and CB rewards from Ghost drops. If these players are only interested in the carrot on the stick then make them earn it.

Edited by Pit, 13 January 2015 - 09:43 PM.

[wanderer]

If you don't break things in the beta, you'll just see them pop up unfixed in the final product.

Did you know that's how in the ancient, first iteration of an online Mechwarrior that's how Davion lost every planet - well after any beta whatsoever?

There was an obscure glitch in the MW1 code Activision used that allowed for infinite jump capacity.

Visualize, if you will old EGA-graphics Jenners flying over the battlefield, un-noticed by the AI defenders because they only detected targets on the ground and in sensor range. They flew. They landed on the enemy bases like predatory bats, and they blew said bases into tiny bits of pixel wreckage.

Yours truly found, much to his amusement, that said glitch had been ported wholesale into the online multiplayer version.

I shared this gem with my Capellans. We quietly shared it with Kurita. And we resolved to use it -once-, to give Davion a lesson in humility.

Every Federated Suns planet became red or green. We took them all. We then pointed out the glitch after a brief moment of Davion WTFery, had a good laugh, and although Davion was still bigger and zergier- it never, ever tried to gobble up every Liao world again.

If a tactic like tar pitting is that dreadfully effective, then it should be made blatantly obvious and used to it's fullest. Only then will any changes be made, for devs are sticks in the mud, and it takes things like aerospace-capable Jenners and Goons <3'ing Paul to insure that such things are dealt with in a timely fashion.

[MischiefSC]

Was pugging with a 10man from another unit today and we went into a match to try some new tactics and get an attrition win. The clock ended up running out but it was like 34/42 at that time. We got accused of tar-pitting specifically because we didn't zerg and suicide rush the gens.

I don't even. The match kicked off about 4 minutes before Ceasefire started; even if we'll ran in and died as fast as we could I don't think we could have intentionally thrown the match fast enough to get them into another.

Look. A 'tar pit' tactic is when someone *avoids fighting*. 'Attrition' is when they go in with the intention of killing all 48 of you. Had a couple of wins while attacking that way today and lemme tell you it pays much better than 2 zergs. It's also a lot more fun for everyone.

I suspect that the intentional avoiding of fighting to drag a match out is really, really rare. Someone had a bad match this one time and now they see it everywhere by everyone every time a match doesn't go exactly as typical.

Relax, play the game, have fun. Matches can take up to 30 minutes. They should involve some sneaky stuff and some shooty stuff, ideally. Sometimes it just running around, sometimes your team just refuses to push. That's not intentional - sometimes you drop with folks who won't even go up to shoot at the gens. Sometimes you drop with people who will only shoot at mechs and you'll watch what should have been a win fail because some guy doubles back to try and get a kill on a spider.

That's part of how CW works. It's okay. Assuming that however a match plays out was intentional and was done to upset you is, well, both a bit narcissistic and assuming way, way too much intention, planning and coordination from the other team.

[Faith McCarron]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

Was pugging with a 10man from another unit today and we went into a match to try some new tactics and get an attrition win. The clock ended up running out but it was like 34/42 at that time. We got accused of tar-pitting specifically because we didn't zerg and suicide rush the gens.

I don't even. The match kicked off about 4 minutes before Ceasefire started; even if we'll ran in and died as fast as we could I don't think we could have intentionally thrown the match fast enough to get them into another.

In other words, you just happened to decide to try a new and innovative tactic that just happened to involve hanging back and took a long time, so much time that it happened to take a full 30 minutes to try out. And it was purely coincidental that you happened to be trying it during the most critical CW time frame. And, well gee golly darn, there happened to be a Liao organized team on the other side. And I mean, how could you know that while you were trying this innovative new method with the Liao team tied up, there just happened to be some other Davion guys out there in groups, and dang-nabbit, those poor guys just had to drop against turrets. I'm sure they were just tearing their hair out that you guys were taking so long and they couldn't get a drop against real people and had to settle for shooting turrets. And now you have another planet that you have to worry about guarding after all that bother. I mean, it was hardly worth it, was it, chief?

[Pit]

4tcr uses mainly attrition tactics and it looks nothing like whatever strategy you were using, wasting LRMs on rocks and making pushes in waves every 8-10 minutes, till the 2 minute mark. Attrition requires constant pressure on one of the enemies drop zones. Stop trolling

Edited by Pit, 14 January 2015 - 06:40 AM.

[Maxwell Albritten]

Pit, on 14 January 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

Stop trolling

Asking a Davion to stop trolling is like asking a normal person to stop breathing. If they stop they die!

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 01:34 AM, said:

In other words, you just happened to decide to try a new and innovative tactic that just happened to involve hanging back and took a long time, so much time that it happened to take a full 30 minutes to try out. And it was purely coincidental that you happened to be trying it during the most critical CW time frame. And, well gee golly darn, there happened to be a Liao organized team on the other side. And I mean, how could you know that while you were trying this innovative new method with the Liao team tied up, there just happened to be some other Davion guys out there in groups, and dang-nabbit, those poor guys just had to drop against turrets. I'm sure they were just tearing their hair out that you guys were taking so long and they couldn't get a drop against real people and had to settle for shooting turrets. And now you have another planet that you have to worry about guarding after all that bother. I mean, it was hardly worth it, was it, chief?

No, not at all. I was in those drops with him. We were trying to utilize the same attrition tactic we successfully used in the match just PREVIOUS to that drop on the frozen map. However, due to the geography of the Sulpher map it takes longer because of the distance of the three gates vs. the drop points.

It also took us longer because it was only the SECOND time we'd employed it, so naturally it was still a bit like herding kittens.

Some of us are VERY tired of the same ol' "everyone zerg multiple times and then brawl a quick finish" crapola that seems to be the 'go to' tactic.

I recorded that previous match where we used it and won and can render it and put it up on YouTube if you'd like to see it.

The funny thing is, at the end of THAT match it was the Liaos that were mostly hiding trying to avoid battle...

[Faith McCarron]

Well I would love to see your match regardless.

I find it hilarious that Davions are getting tired of the zerg rush being overused. Other than the TCAF, I dont know of any of the Liao units that employ the zerg rush. Davion on the other hand, when you see a group of more than say, 6, you can bet money on a light rush. Dont get me wrong, I'm glad you decided to find a new strategy, though.

I will apologize though for accusing people of tar pitting, it seems like you're saying that you weren't intentionally playing bad, you were actually legitimately bad. My compliments on accepting responsibility for this. I have faith you'll get better at this whole new "fighting" strategy.

[Pit]

How do you avoid battle on defense? Link to video?

[Dimento Graven]

Pit, on 14 January 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

4tcr uses mainly attrition tactics and it looks nothing like whatever strategy you were using, wasting LRMs on rocks and making pushes in waves every 8-10 minutes, till the 2 minute mark. Attrition requires constant pressure on one of the enemies drop zones. Stop trolling

Nope, on the drop you're whining about (again, we dropped with about 4 minutes left in CW and you had the planet at ~20%, so if we went in and spent 12 seconds suiciding for you, just WHAT were you expecting to accomplish in the other 3 minutes, I dunno), we came in sent one 'mech to Gamma, a lance to Bravo, and the rest of the forces to Alpha. The lone 'mech at Gamma died for whatever reason, but the forces at Bravo took out the turret, and 3 of that lance went to alpha. The ONE mech at Bravo and the forces at Alpha then proceeded to take out Alpha and Bravo simultaneously.

The 'mech at Bravo then ran around to Gamma while forces engaged at Alpha and was going to open the gate but realized it'd be better to attack the generator and pull some forces away from the main fight, which by this time had been going on for at least 8 minutes. The gen was knocked down to about 50% before your forces came and finished off the guy on the generator, having been abused by the turrets previously.

Next it was separate pushes through alpha and bravo gates with mixed forces, and due to the disperate death times, and some people starting to go rogue and go off and do their own things, gathering forces for those pushes took longer than normal (having to call people BACK to the gathering points before they went in and tried to Rambozo the rest of you).

At the end we realized our best bet was to just start killing you off and then finish off the base.

Ultimately, it comes down to: If you guys don't like the pace of the battle, COME OUT AND FIGHT!

Don't just sit there and whine, "Well they're not marching in here to their doom one at a time as fast as they can for our convenience."

That's silly.

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

Well I would love to see your match regardless.

I find it hilarious that Davions are getting tired of the zerg rush being overused. Other than the TCAF, I dont know of any of the Liao units that employ the zerg rush.

Wow... I bet you weren't able to type that with a straight face...

Quote

Davion on the other hand, when you see a group of more than say, 6, you can bet money on a light rush. Dont get me wrong, I'm glad you decided to find a new strategy, though.

I will apologize though for accusing people of tar pitting, it seems like you're saying that you weren't intentionally playing bad, you were actually legitimately bad. My compliments on accepting responsibility for this. I have faith you'll get better at this whole new "fighting" strategy.

Meh, it's a matter of perspective. Again, the match ended relatively close. Had we had 5 more minutes, it's possible we would have won THAT match just like the previous one.

I'll start working on rendering it now. It'll take a few hours...

Pit, on 14 January 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

How do you avoid battle on defense? Link to video?

In the matches I thought we were referring to, it was Liao that was on the defensive side.

[Hans Davion]

Yall need to harden up. The IS would be better off without Liaos anway, whenever we get back to Davion space gona enjoy killing your turrets - or lrm teams, both as easy as eachother, except the turrets can hit sore spots