195 replies to this topic

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Roland, on 05 January 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

[/size]
Except for setting up the manufacturing line, the logistics for moving materials to the plant, logistics for shipping the finished product to a retailer, stocking those products in some warehouse waiting for sale, etc.

Compared with delivery of digital content, which costs essentially nothing.




Physical commodities also require all of those things.. power bills, salaries, rent, etc.... While also requiring manufacturing chain support.


The only thing that guarantees a long term stable source of revenue is a healthy, vibrant community... because no one is gonna buy imaginary robots to play in a game that isn't fun, or that no one else is playing.

One of the most devastating things that PGI did to their bottom line was selling P2W clan mechs. While they are both freely available now, and better balanced, when the clans were first introduced they were CLEARLY P2W. Mechs like the Timberwolf and Stormcrow were dramatically superior to everything else on the field. And you could ONLY play them if you paid money for them. It was the definition of P2W, despite the foolish claims to the contrary by people who enjoyed being able to pay for the advantage.

And a ton of folks just said, "F this noise" and left, and they ain't coming back. Because they assume that PGI will just do it again and some point in the future. They have no desire to invest money in a game that is going to do that again.

I see your reading comprehension remains poor, since I did mention all those things like warehousing. But instead of actually getting the point, in your hurry to win the internet, you try to break it into bite size morsels, and lose the entire context. Good job, champ!



Aka, you are paying for the infrastructure, not the product, in either scenario.

But then again, on top of being an elite gamer, I guess we peons forget you are also a top tier programmer, and marketing major, too.

Edited by Illya Arkhipova, 05 January 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Illya Arkhipova, on 05 January 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

once the molds are made, those cost pennies to produce.

The in game models typically require a much large investment in time and funds to make the "original", that a TT mini does (crazy though it seems).

Not saying I agree with the prices, but realistically, even most things you can hold in your hand, as you put it, really cost nearly nothing to produce. It's all the attendant costs (shipping, warehousing, packaging, salaries, insurance, etc) that you really end up paying for, just as for your electrons, you are paying PGI's power bills, salaries, rent, etc.

And in either case, the more one sells, the bigger the market, the bigger the mark down one can afford.

Biggest issue, people assume that if you cut prices in half, you will sell twice as much, and market data shows not only does that seldom happen, but you actually need to sell more than double to break even, let alone see a net gain. Even with E-items.

So a graphics designer's time is worth more than a sculptor? Who may or may not have to start from scratch with real materials. No sir. The mini should always cost more than a digital copy. MW:O Mechs should not cost more than $5. Paying $30 for the Hellslinger and $35 for Pokemon Omega Red just does not quite balance as equal.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

So a graphics designer's time is worth more than a sculptor? Who may or may not have to start from scratch with real materials. No sir. The mini should always cost more than a digital copy. MW:O Mechs should not cost more than $5. Paying $30 for the Hellslinger and $35 for Pokemon Omega Red just does not quite balance as equal.

Sorry to have to rouse the dinosaur from the dark ages, but yes.

A programmer is paid higher than your miniature sculpt artist (who is an endangered species with 3D software and 3D printing being the way to achieve even your physical miniature, as the quality control is much higher...and those in game models have more applications than your physical miniature). We are not talking paying michelangelo here. And the investment in creating each piece is rather high because while one doesn't need new pewter, resin and plaster for each piece, one does have to make a huge investment in computer hardware and software, which as a gamer, you should realize doesn't have the best return on investment or lifespan, but tends to require constant upgrading to stay competitive.

Art sculptors and movie studio sculptors can make OK pay, but even studios like GW, that live off minis, don't pay that well, overall.

the idealists "should" and reality, seldom co-exist.

Edited by Illya Arkhipova, 05 January 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Illya Arkhipova, on 05 January 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

Sorry to have to rouse the dinosaur from the dark ages, but yes.

A programmer is paid higher than your miniature sculpt artist (who is an endangered species with 3D software and 3D printing being the way to achieve even your physical miniature, as the quality control is much higher...and those in game models have more applications than your physical miniature). We are not talking paying michelangelo here. And the investment in creating each piece is rather high because while one doesn't need new pewter, resin and plaster for each piece, one does have to make a huge investment in computer hardware and software, which as a gamer, you should realize doesn't have the best return on investment or lifespan, but tends to require constant upgrading to stay competitive.

Art sculptors and movie studio sculptors can make OK pay, but even studios like GW, that live off minis, don't pay that well, overall.

the idealists "should" and reality, seldom co-exist.

GW pays very well if you're one of a handful of celebrity designers/sculptors, like Juan Diaz, Jes Goodwin, or John Blanche. If not, you're gonna have a very bad time.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 05 January 2015 - 09:40 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

So a graphics designer's time is worth more than a sculptor? Who may or may not have to start from scratch with real materials. No sir. The mini should always cost more than a digital copy. MW:O Mechs should not cost more than $5. Paying $30 for the Hellslinger and $35 for Pokemon Omega Red just does not quite balance as equal.

are you serious? DUDE; rly?

Make sculpture is much easier,
Make a ingame model, make it animated move and not glitch and bug like hell. there is a lot more than just making an art or a model to make stuff of a 3D mech work correctly. debugging is consuming quite some time. Do hits register correctly, the hitboxes, whatever. This consumes way more time than just making some art and models. you are again speaking about things you have no idea of.

or why don't you just make on on your own? her eis free 3D software out there just make a moving mech for us.

[Joseph Mallan]

Illya Arkhipova, on 05 January 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

Sorry to have to rouse the dinosaur from the dark ages, but yes.

A programmer is paid higher than your miniature sculpt artist (who is an endangered species with 3D software and 3D printing being the way to achieve even your physical miniature, as the quality control is much higher...and those in game models have more applications than your physical miniature). We are not talking paying michelangelo here. And the investment in creating each piece is rather high because while one doesn't need new pewter, resin and plaster for each piece, one does have to make a huge investment in computer hardware and software, which as a gamer, you should realize doesn't have the best return on investment or lifespan, but tends to require constant upgrading to stay competitive.

the idealists "should" and reality, seldom co-exist.

Still not seeing the need for the end product of a single toon costing as much as a full game, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

Would you pay $35 for CoD then pay $45 for a single weapon that you use in the game? For me it would be like Buying Omega Ruby($30) then paying $40 to unlock Groudon. Sorry been buying games since the 80s... This is not a proper value. For $30 I should get a Mech, a Bunch of Unique missions, (I get the special paint job), and the boost to grindables. But $30 for one Mech.

For crying out loud I love Dragon Kin characters in D&D... I will not pay $75 for one in Neverwinter. Even with all the bells and whistles. I just paid that for for the Premier package for Dragon Age Inquisition, ($10 more than the normal DA:I)

No A single Mech in this game should not cost more than a physical object... And don't forget Each of those physical objects I buy have material costs that a Toon does not.

[Vassago Rain]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Still not seeing the need for the end product of a single toon costing as much as a full game, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

Would you pay $35 for CoD then pay $45 for a single weapon that you use in the game? For me it would be like Buying Omega Ruby($30) then paying $40 to unlock Groudon. Sorry been buying games since the 80s... This is not a proper value. For $30 I should get a Mech, a Bunch of Unique missions, (I get the special paint job), and the boost to grindables. But $30 for one Mech.

For crying out loud I love Dragon Kin characters in D&D... I will not pay $75 for one in Neverwinter. Even with all the bells and whistles. I just paid that for for the Premier package for Dragon Age Inquisition, ($10 more than the normal DA:I)

No A single Mech in this game should not cost more than a physical object... And don't forget Each of those physical objects I buy have material costs that a Toon does not.

That's how videogames work now, Joe.

You pay retail cost for the game (30-60), then 20-60 for a DLC/map pass.

There are alternatives to this business model, but in general, that's how the big titles operate.

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Still not seeing the need for the end product of a single toon costing as much as a full game, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

Would you pay $35 for CoD then pay $45 for a single weapon that you use in the game? For me it would be like Buying Omega Ruby($30) then paying $40 to unlock Groudon. Sorry been buying games since the 80s... This is not a proper value. For $30 I should get a Mech, a Bunch of Unique missions, (I get the special paint job), and the boost to grindables. But $30 for one Mech.

For crying out loud I love Dragon Kin characters in D&D... I will not pay $75 for one in Neverwinter. Even with all the bells and whistles. I just paid that for for the Premier package for Dragon Age Inquisition, ($10 more than the normal DA:I)

No A single Mech in this game should not cost more than a physical object... And don't forget Each of those physical objects I buy have material costs that a Toon does not.

material costs of plastic, LOL, you still don't get it, major aspects of costs are not the materials, its development

and in the 80's what development costs did games had? a few hundret bugs. welcome to the 21st century dude.

also define "physical object" lol, I am quite sure on GW standards you would easily pay like 30$ for an atlas miniature or even more.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 05 January 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

That's how videogames work now, Joe.

You pay retail cost for the game (30-60), then 20-60 for a DLC/map pass.

There are alternatives to this business model, but in general, that's how the big titles operate.

At least with those DCLs You normally get a full blown adventure with new things to do and people to kill and swag to collect. $30 for a new toon to do the same battles again and again is not what I call a good investment.

[ztac]

A long time ago (seems that way) they nerfed the C-bill earning potential of players. Now this is odd as it would take players a lot longer to buy extra mods/weapons etc etc for their mechs. Now some may argue that it gives an incentive for players to buy premium time. (even with premium it can still be a huge grind). The fact is that it slows down players and may even make the game seem boring because of the grind ... certainly it will slow down a players ability to buy a new mech and the need for new mech bays.

From the cash perspective it depends really on just hope much they earn from premium compared to packs or mech sales versus players becoming bored (Grind kills games as sure as many of the other problems that you can find.. lack of content , poor balance , bad queue management to name but a few).

Of course you also wonder just how engaged PGI are with their community , sometimes it seems not at all unless you are on certain social media sites which is just absurd considering having a forum with a huge amount of input and feedback on the actual game.

[Mechteric]

If CBill earnings could be increased by as little as 25% across the board it would go a long way.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 05 January 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

material costs of plastic, LOL, you still don't get it, major aspects of costs are not the materials, its development

and in the 80's what development costs did games had? a few hundret bugs. welcome to the 21st century dude.

also define "physical object" lol, I am quite sure on GW standards you would easily pay like 30$ for an atlas miniature or even more.

Peuter is metal not Plastic... kinda changes the scale a bit. If it was just plastic I might agree, but its not. a pound of Peuter costs about $12, How much does a byte cost?

The LE Jumping atlas is $25.
The Atlas-K is $14.75 (5,480 MC)
The Atlas II is $14.50
The Atlas III is $16.95

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 January 2015 - 09:56 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

At least with those DCLs You normally get a full blown adventure with new things to do and people to kill and swag to collect. $30 for a new toon to do the same battles again and again is not what I call a good investment.

You should have thought about that before you enabled PGI to gouge your wallet, man.

[Vassago Rain]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

Peuter is metal not Plastic... kinda changes the scale a bit. If it was just plastic I might agree, but its not. a pound of Peuter costs about $12, How much does a byte cost?

The LE Jumping atlas is $25.
The Atlas-K is $14.75
The Atlas II is $14.50
The Atlas III is $16.95

No one uses pewter anymore. It's all plastic, resin, or restic.

It cost games workshop 50 american cents to make a 40k battle for Macragge intro set. Those retailed for 65 US dollars back when they were relevant. In fact, PACKAGING costs these companies more than the material used to make the pieces.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Regarding Modules, what I imagined was:

GXP unlocks for Research into the tech.
Followed by a one time up front cost for Developing the tech for use and/or Licensing and so on.
To then be able buy as many modules as you want to fit your mechs, at a lower price.

That way players would make two big one-time GXP and C-Bill investments to gain access, and then pay a lower separate price for the actual modules.

For example take Radar Derp

15,000 GXP and 6,000,000 C-Bills to have the Modules available,

With say a 54,000 cost per actual mountable module.

Could even bring Loyalty Points into the fray to, either reduce costs some, or be used as an alternate currency even.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 05 January 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

You should have thought about that before you enabled PGI to gouge your wallet, man.

They don't get a penny I do not want to spend Vass. Others may willingly pay for pixels, But I only pay for what I want and think is worth the money. Its why I didn't buy any of the packs between Founders and The latest pack. And I really had to twist my own arm to spend this last $80.

Vassago Rain, on 05 January 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

No one uses pewter anymore. It's all plastic, resin, or restic.

It cost games workshop 50 american cents to make a 40k battle for Macragge intro set. Those retailed for 65 US dollars back when they were relevant. In fact, PACKAGING costs these companies more than the material used to make the pieces.

Soooo What is Iron Wind Metals Selling cause it isn't Plastic, Resin or Restic??? Looks and feels like good old fashion metal to me Vass.

And back when FASA was marketing the PlasTech Minis I could buy a Lance of Assaults for less than a Atlas Toon!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 January 2015 - 10:06 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

They don't get a penny I do not want to spend Vass. Others may willingly pay for pixels, But I only pay for what I want and think is worth the money. Its why I didn't buy any of the packs between Founders and The latest pack. And I really had to twist my own arm to spend this last $80.


Soooo What is Iron Wind Metals Selling cause it isn't Plastic, Resin or Restic??? Looks and feels like good old fashion metal to me Vass.

Battletech is a dead game.

The actual people making money off miniatures sales are using industrial injection moulds to make very high-quality plastic figures, that are sold in clamshell packages to save on packaging. Catalyst cannot afford to setup the infrastructure for this, but have started outsourcing to the chinese for a new line of plastics.



9 piece plastic librarian. Battletech figures, materials, and even manufacturing, is antiquated. I worked in 'the business' for almost 15 years.

The one company that defies the plastic revolution is Reaper, but they don't sell actual games.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 05 January 2015 - 10:11 AM.

[darkchylde]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

That is a LE Jumping Atlas. It is $25. Not a single MWO Mech should cost more than a product I can hold in my hand. Not One. And I own Hellslinger which Does cost more.

Seriously...mechs are way overpriced.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 05 January 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Battletech is a dead game.

The actual people making money off miniatures sales are using industrial injection moulds to make very high-quality plastic figures, that are sold in clamshell packages to save on packaging.



9 piece plastic librarian. Battletech figures, materials, and even manufacturing, is antiquated. I worked in 'the business' for almost 15 years.

The one company that defies the plastic revolution is Reaper, but they don't sell actual games.

Iron Wind Metals doesn't sell games either just products for CBT and a few other related games.

[Vassago Rain]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

Iron Wind Metals doesn't sell games either just products for CBT and a few other related games.

No, they quite clearly make gaming pieces that you put on the table and play CBT with. Reaper makes top quality display pieces that need expert assembly to stay together, and cost huge premium prices.

Many people use Reaper minis for warhammer fantasy characters, but they're not intended for such. Here's another GW plastic.