78 replies to this topic

[3CLIPZ3]

Please keep this from turning into another nerf/OP thread.

I just noticed that when playing CW as clan, the IS seems to be easily dominating the clans in range battles, (so bad that clans have a really tough time pushing even past the Bor Gate. Is this probably from the fact that nearly every IS has a 9S 3or4PPC in the deck? It seems that most of my deaths have been from 9S's at least from the snipe battles.

[Galdar777]

Bor Vault is a bad map for sniping. Try attacking the clans on it its just as bad as IS except that your weapons reach out further

[Lukoi Banacek]

Yes we do.

IS have the PPD AC advantage.

Just one example.

Is this thread more of a secret plea to discover how to overcome quirked TDRs perhaps? Because even on CW there are almost no sightlines where quirked IS ERPPC are too long range compared to Clan.

[Rhaythe]

Numbers don't lie. When using IS weaponry stock, yes. Clans have a significant range advantage over IS technology. Swapping out large lasers and regular PPCs for ER-variants closes this distance. Modules close it even more. Building your IS mechs to benefit from quirks can pretty much eliminate any advantage, especially when heat factors into the equation.

The ThunderPPC builds are illustrating just how devastating IS tech can be when utilized to its full advantage via the quirk system.

(Not saying it's OP or not - just stating my opinion on range)

[ztac]

IS have the range advantage period..... The real problem is that people seem to have adopted a mantra of 'The clans are OP' without actually knowing why people say they are OP... when someone try's to explain they just get cut down with a flawed argument.

The real problem is poor IS builds ... If someone in the IS gets the right mech with the right build it is OP! ...... IS mechs have a lot of advantages in a lot of areas , whatever advantage the clans did have vanished while back although their last bastion may well be the range of lasers , but people forget that Clans are heat intensive and shutdown all too easy if pushed!

IS get longer range on LRM and stupid range on ERPPC ! other weapons I cant say I've looked at in great detail but these two are the best right now!

[AlphaToaster]

3CLIPZ3, on 05 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I just noticed that when playing CW as clan, the IS seems to be easily dominating the clans in range battles, (so bad that clans have a really tough time pushing even past the Bor Gate

The danger from the erPPC Thunderbolt is the PPFLD nature of their shots. Work around this by avoiding sniper battles with them. Don't stand there and exchange shots with them. If you remain a moving target and always change the location where you peek (never peek from same spot twice in a row) you will find you can damage them without taking hits every time.

It's a bad idea to sniper duel them anyway. If they're attacking force them to come to you.

The problem you describe at the gate, or rather what you describe as a symptom of a problem with having issues at the gate is solely a product of a team that won't work together to hit the generator. It plagues both factions when only a small few try for the gate generators and there's a large defending force (clan or IS) on the central defenders hill between the gates.

If say, the majority of mechs were to roll up on the gate in a pain train on the generator giving 1 full alpha before running off the edge, rolling what damage they do take, the generator would be dead almost right away.

The people in the front would take the brunt of the damage, so to even it out, if the generator requires a 2nd pass, which is unlikely, or when moving to the second generator, people in the back of the line should go first.

TL:DR = Teamwork stuff. Don't sniper duel vs erPPC using the same peek-a-boo spot over and over.

[Lord Ikka]

Snipers are fairly even, ppcs/gauss, but what gives the channels the edge is the medium lasers.

[Kuritaclan]

Quote

Do Clans Truly Have Range Advantage?

in general yes, but in special with combinations of IS Mechs set up per Quirk for Range no.

[Aiden Skye]

Not so much anymore. IS quirks and clan nerfs have closed the gap. I run my 4ER large jester in CW and now more in non CW matches. It has better beam duration and runs cooler than my clan equivalent. It has about 750m or something optimal range with the ERLL module. Would be interesting to see how stacked ERLL ranges on a chassis quirked for it. I don't have a TDR9s but it looks ridiculous.

I actually really don't like the CERLL nearly as much as the beam duration is massive.

Edited by W A R K H A N, 05 January 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[AlphaToaster]

Lord Ikka, on 05 January 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Snipers are fairly even, ppcs/gauss, but what gives the channels the edge is the medium lasers.

On a weapon per weapon basis, removing mechs and quirks from the equation, Clan Med lasers rock compared to IS medium lasers.

Then we can start to talk about quirks and how IS mechs received quirks to help this along and we get beasts like the Med Pulse Thunderbolt that has 'almost clan ranges' with it's med pulse lasers.

or the Battlemaster that can boat 7 of them with reduced heat and more range etc.

Once we factor in the 'right' IS mech to have medium lasers on, compared to the clan mechs med lasers, and they start to balance out more closely.

Also, in order for the real long reaching lasers, clans have to give up heatsinks in exchange for a larger TC. The longer range we want to reach, the hotter our build gets, the less effective it becomes at shorter ranges as a trade off.

I agree that in a bubble, without any quirks, clan med lasers are better than IS med lasers.

Edited by AlphaToaster, 05 January 2015 - 10:09 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Another 9s bashing post lol.

Yes the IS has 9s to fight off clan range but not for long as they will nerf the heck out of it because people cryed. Kind of how they killed the ravens legs, lrms,spiders legs,ac40 jag,3xilya gauss and so on. Stuff that was never really a problem.

[Mott]

3CLIPZ3, on 05 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I just noticed that when playing CW as clan, the IS seems to be easily dominating the clans in range battles, (so bad that clans have a really tough time pushing even past the Bor Gate. Is this probably from the fact that nearly every IS has a 9S 3or4PPC in the deck? It seems that most of my deaths have been from 9S's at least from the snipe battles.

Short answer = NO

Even when an IS mech is fully quirked, fully moduled and using ER L or PPCs... they will just barely reach the ranges of an unmoduled, non-targeting computer assisted Clan version of the same weapon.

At no time, no place, do the IS mechs (even the TDRs) have a range advantage over the clans. You're simply sitting still far too much in the sights of the enemy, if you're getting cored by slow-moving PPC shots.

Edited by Mott, 05 January 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[Aiden Skye]

Most games asside from Boreal usually come down to a brawl anyway, idk but when i'm pugging it seems like my team always wants to see the whites of the enemies eyes even if their weapons reach out to 700-800m.

[MechWarrior9376871]

Lukoi Banacek, on 05 January 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

Yes we do.

IS have the PPD AC advantage.

Just one example.

Is this thread more of a secret plea to discover how to overcome quirked TDRs perhaps? Because even on CW there are almost no sightlines where quirked IS ERPPC are too long range compared to Clan.

L2P? Seriously I have pug dropped with Wolf and Steiner. I quit Wolf and joined Liao because Wolf pugs just stink skill wise. No experience at premades, so that may be completely different. Even with half of clan players dropping 3 SCR 1 TBR they just sucked.

[Kraven Kor]

3CLIPZ3, on 05 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Please keep this from turning into another nerf/OP thread.

I just noticed that when playing CW as clan, the IS seems to be easily dominating the clans in range battles, (so bad that clans have a really tough time pushing even past the Bor Gate. Is this probably from the fact that nearly every IS has a 9S 3or4PPC in the deck? It seems that most of my deaths have been from 9S's at least from the snipe battles.

Clan technically has the range advantage, but...

IS quirkiness like the ThunderBOLTS with their ER-PPC quirk, and similar quirked-out mechs, swing it the other way to an extent.

Clan ER-PPC has better range than even a range-modded Thunderbolt 9S, but the 9S has way faster output and a faster projectile and will as such win a sniper duel against a clan mech, assuming otherwise equal pilots.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

The clans have a range advantage, but not a significant one. That the clans are OP because have a "range advantage" is a myth.

Not counting the small clan ACs (which never get used) only 3 clan weapons have a range advantage greater that 100m. The large laser, the large pulse laser and the medium laser. The medium laser only has 130m over its IS counterpart.

A range buff of 100m or less is insignificant (especially when you consider how hot clan energy weapons run) and 3 weapons having a slightly longer range than their IS counterparts does not a game breaking advantage make.

If you are getting smashed by an enemy team in CW it is because that team are better organised, better pilots or that they have better tactics. NOT because the factions are unbalanced.

Edited by Senor Cataclysmo, 05 January 2015 - 01:00 PM.

[Rhaythe]

SL: 135m
C-ERSL: 200m
Diff: 33%

ML: 270m
C-ERML: 405m
Diff: 34%

LL: 450m
ER-LL: 675m
C-ERLL: 740m
Diff: 40% || 9%

PPC: 540m
ER-PPC: 810m
C-ERPPC: 810m
Diff: 33% || 0%

SPL: 110m
C-SPL: 165m
Diff: 34%

MPL: 220m
C-MPL: 330m
Diff: 34%

LPL: 365m
C-LPL: 600
Diff: 40%

Flamer: 90m
C-Flamer: 90m
Diff: 0%

Numbers are numbers. Clans have range. Clans have damage. Clans have heat. A few outsiders, obviously. But those are the numbers. Clans do more damage at greater range by generating more heat. There is no way to dispute that. There are, of course, ways for the IS currently to extend their range via modules (which clans also have) or quirks. But out of the box, and in the vast majority of IS vs Clan battles, Clans WILL win the range war when it comes to energy weapons.

I am not claiming ClanTech is OP (it's not). I'm just posting numbers that prove Clan weapons *do* have larger range. Take that for what you will.

[Khobai]

Quote

IS have the range advantage period

not really.

ERPPCs have travel time and only go 1000m/s. Theyre super easy to dodge at long range especially in a mech with decent acceleration/deceleration like the stormcrow.

Conversely my stormcrows ERLLs hit instantly at max range. At ranges of 1000m-1500m the accuracy advantage of hitscan over projectile weapons simply cannot be denied.

not to mention ERPPC usage for IS is limited to ONE mech in four. While ALL four clan mechs can use ERLLs.

IS may have the weapon with the longest max range. But clans have the range advantage. PERIOD.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Mott]

Rhaythe, on 05 January 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Clans WILL win the range war when it comes to energy weapons.

I am not claiming ClanTech is OP (it's not). I'm just posting numbers that prove Clan weapons *do* have larger range. Take that for what you will.

Khobai, on 05 January 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

IS may have the weapon with the longest max range. But clans have the range advantage. PERIOD.

Indisputable... and yet... this is the interwebs... so folks with dispute endlessly.

But again to the OP... The clans have the range advantage. BT made them so, countless BT/MW properties have held them to it, MWO is produced using Table Top values... so yes, Clans have the range advantage as the previous 2 posters reinforced and it's impossible for anyone to argue (intelligently) otherwise.

[Joe Mallad]

Rhaythe, on 05 January 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Numbers don't lie. When using IS weaponry stock, yes. Clans have a significant range advantage over IS technology. Swapping out large lasers and regular PPCs for ER-variants closes this distance. Modules close it even more. Building your IS mechs to benefit from quirks can pretty much eliminate any advantage, especially when heat factors into the equation.

The ThunderPPC builds are illustrating just how devastating IS tech can be when utilized to its full advantage via the quirk system.

(Not saying it's OP or not - just stating my opinion on range)

i want to point out that while IS weapons gap is closed a bit with the added help of weapon range modules but even that isn't enough to say iS weapons range is on par with Clan range... Because Clans also have range modules lol. And this just extends them right back out to the initial range as if no one even has modules lol. In fact modules actually help clan mechs a bit more. Take a IS ERLL and CLan ERLL and look at their standard ranges. The Clan ER has a better range. Now add a 10% range boost to both for having the ERLL range maxed module and 10% on the Clan ERLL is still greater than 10% on the IS ERLL range boost. Clans still come out on top lol

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 05 January 2015 - 01:02 PM.