653 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Firstly, this is about endo, not Engines.

but endos not the problem. locked engines are.

if we had unlocked engines then the mechs without endo would have the advantage of more crit slots. and they would have the ability to use those extra crit slots because of more extra tonnage from having a smaller engine.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 27 March 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

but endos not the problem. locked engines are.

if we had unlocked engines then the mechs without endo would have the advantage of more crit slots. and they would have the ability to use those extra crit slots because of more extra tonnage from having a smaller engine.

if you had unlocked engines all Clan Mechs would pretty much become broken, on the spot, and the only balance would be to lock omni pods and globally nerf clan weapons even more than they are now.

[Andi Nagasia]

i say unlock both but link them so you can only Unlock Engines if you have Standard Structure,
so balance it so the SCR would lose 3T and teh TBR would lose 3.5 to be able to Change Engine,
so going down to a 300C-XL in a TBR would only give +7.5Tons more instead of +11Tons,

[Khobai]

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if you had unlocked engines all Clan Mechs would pretty much become broken, on the spot,

Not if you followed my three step process which involves a weapon rebalance and giving IS the light fusion engine.

Unlocking engines would probably make clan lasers stronger because they could boat more DHS. So youd likely have to reduce the heat efficiency of clan lasers to account for the extra DHS. Thats an easy thing to balance. But clan autocannons and missiles are hardly at risk of being overpowered.

The benefits of unlocking engines outweigh the negatives. Clan mechs could use weapons other than laser spam. And clan lights would suddenly become viable. Both huge improvements on the current game.

And adding the LFE for IS is overdue.... IS XL is terrible. Its about time IS got a viable alternative. LFE would fix so many problems for IS assaults and mechs like the Atlas would become viable again because it would get a substantial speed increase without sacrificing much survivability.


FF and endo should remain locked. However mechs without FF or endo should get additional quirks as compensation. for example the summoners +5% max speed quirk is nearly as good as endo in terms of tonnage (its like having a +3 ton engine for free). The main reason the summoner suffers is because it cant take a smaller engine to benefit from the extra crit slots from not having endo.

Edited by Khobai, 27 March 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 27 March 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Not if you followed my three step process which involves a weapon rebalance and giving IS the light fusion engine.

In other words, yes, if we make pretend PGI is willing to flush the last 2.5 years down the toilet.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The only reason we have locked endo/fero and locked engines is because people don't want their precious Clan Tech to be comparable to lowly Inner Sphere Tech.

We *should* unlock the Clan equipment to make ClanMechs more fun in the MechLab, and tone the weapons down to make them balanced to IS weapons on a per ton-slot basis. So, a clan laser that weighs less and takes up fewer slots should be worse than the heaver, bulkier IS equivalent weapon.

But that would piss-off the people who want Clans to be superior factions. Unfortunately, the people like me who want both factions to be equal aren't as vocal. The "10v12" solution is for elitists.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 27 March 2015 - 03:10 PM.

[Khobai]

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In other words, yes, if we make pretend PGI is willing to flush the last 2.5 years down the toilet.

How is that flushing 2.5 years down the toilet? You exaggerate as usual.

Plus the game isnt balanced anyway. So theres nothing to lose by trying.

You also underestimate the balancing effect that adding LFE for IS would have. Thats a huge improvement over IS XL.

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We *should* unlock the Clan equipment to make ClanMechs more fun in the MechLab, and tone the weapons down to make them balanced to IS weapons on a per ton-slot basis. So, a clan laser that weighs less and takes up fewer slots should be worse than the heaver, bulkier IS equivalent weapon.

exactly. Does anyone think slow lights, assaults with barely any free tonnage, or laser spam are at all beneficial to the game? Because those are the negative consequences of locked engines. Game would be way better off without any of that. Theres better ways to balance clan mechs that dont involve severely limiting their customization options.

Edited by Khobai, 27 March 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

i would rather have Unlocked Upgrades than have nothing at all,

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 27 March 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

Not really. Last I checked clan mechs are superior to IS mechs even with locked engines. Clan mechs arnt really being nerfed by being forced to use large engines. Theyre just being forced to laser spam because of large engines. Allowing clan mechs to use weapons other than lasers would hardly be overpowered.

Locked engines force clan mechs to use one type of weapon almost exclusively... that is why the entire clan meta revolves around lasers. That is bad for the game. Everyone complains about the omnipresent stormcrows and madcats spamming lasers everywhere. So why not fix that? Plus clan lights suddenly become viable alternatives with their speed no longer capped at ridiculously low levels.

Its a simple three step process:

1) unlock clan engines thus allowing clan mechs greater diversity of weapons. also makes clan lights viable.
2) rebalance clan weapons accordingly and nerf any weapons that become overpowered as a result of unlocking Clan XL engines.
3) give IS the light fusion engine already to help balance the disparity between IS and Clan XL engines.

Other weapons, like what? Clan ballistics other than Gauss are bad. ERPPC's are terrible (not as bad as IS ERPPC's but still terrible). Clan LRM's are a joke, lighter but inferior versions of weapons that are only really good against poor players in the first place.

SRM's are fine, but already used.

So, what would unlocking engines do for clan loadouts? Dual gauss. That's what it would do. That's not a really good thing.

[Wintersdark]

Prosperity Park, on 27 March 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

The only reason we have locked endo/fero and locked engines is because people don't want their precious Clan Tech to be comparable to lowly Inner Sphere Tech.

We *should* unlock the Clan equipment to make ClanMechs more fun in the MechLab, and tone the weapons down to make them balanced to IS weapons on a per ton-slot basis. So, a clan laser that weighs less and takes up fewer slots should be worse than the heaver, bulkier IS equivalent weapon.

But that would piss-off the people who want Clans to be superior factions. Unfortunately, the people like me who want both factions to be equal aren't as vocal. The "10v12" solution is for elitists.

10v12 doesn't work for a hell of a lot of reasons, which have been well discussed.

The problem with the rest of your statement though is that there's really no way to do that without basically just making the two tech bases the same.

Sure, you could nerf clan lasers down to IS laser levels, but then you'd need to buff the clan autocannons (make them single shell), and once you started down that road there'd be no flavour anymore.

I get you'll see my clan tag and may assume this is just a clan player who doesn't want his toys nerfed, but that's not the case at all. I've been here a long time, have MANY more IS mechs than I have Clan mechs. What I don't want to see is the two feeling exactly the same in play.

I'd MUCH sooner see IS simply get more tonnage available (not more players, that'll never work).

But this thread isn't about IS vs. clan, its about clan vs. Clan, and how so damn many clan mechs are trash due in a large part (but not solely) to the fact that they arbitrarily lose several tons of payload space for no apparent reason. At least the huge grossly inefficient engines give you a bit more speed, not having endosteel just sucks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 27 March 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

The only reason we have locked endo/fero and locked engines is because people don't want their precious Clan Tech to be comparable to lowly Inner Sphere Tech.

We *should* unlock the Clan equipment to make ClanMechs more fun in the MechLab, and tone the weapons down to make them balanced to IS weapons on a per ton-slot basis. So, a clan laser that weighs less and takes up fewer slots should be worse than the heaver, bulkier IS equivalent weapon.

But that would piss-off the people who want Clans to be superior factions. Unfortunately, the people like me who want both factions to be equal aren't as vocal. The "10v12" solution is for elitists.

Um, some of us 12v12 like the concept of them feeling and acting ....idk...differently? I mean what unlock everything and swappable pods? Yeah, then it's the IS that gets screwed, or do IS mechs get to start swapping hardpoints?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

Um, some of us 12v12 like the concept of them feeling and acting ....idk...differently? I mean what unlock everything and swappable pods? Yeah, then it's the IS that gets screwed, or do IS mechs get to start swapping hardpoints?

I said "balanced," not "identical."

Clan weapons are smaller and lighter, IS weapons are bigger and heavier. That gives plenty of options for making them feel different in combat. And you don't have to always just go Bigger= FLD & Smaller = DPS. Think of The Noisy Cricket.

Unlocking Clan Equipment and engines should be coupled with weapons and equipment that perform as well per TonSlot as Inner Sphere stuff. You can balance their per-TonSlot effectiveness with factors such as range, heat, duration, refire rate... Knowing that Clans can bring More weapons into combat, but the IS can bring fewer but singularly more powerful weapons...

[Andi Nagasia]

Prosperity Park, on 27 March 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

I said "balanced," not "identical."

Clan weapons are smaller and lighter, IS weapons are bigger and heavier. That gives plenty of options for making them feel different in combat. And you don't have to always just go Bigger= FLD & Smaller = DPS. Think of The Noisy Cricket.

Unlocking Clan Equipment and engines should be coupled with weapons and equipment that perform as well per TonSlot as Inner Sphere stuff. You can balance their per-TonSlot effectiveness with factors such as range, heat, duration, refire rate... Knowing that Clans can bring More weapons into combat, but the IS can bring fewer but singularly more powerful weapons.

the problem are they have already been balanced like that, just look at IS vs Clan Lasers,
but no matter how much people talk about them being in a good place balance wise,
others will always say they are lighter and smaller so they are OP,

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

if you had unlocked engines all Clan Mechs would pretty much become broken, on the spot, and the only balance would be to lock omni pods and globally nerf clan weapons even more than they are now.

As much as I'd love unlocked engines as a mechlab junkie player, seriously: Unlocking engines would be terrible for IS vs. Clan balance.

As it stands, Clan engines are a huge advantage for Clans, and that's only somewhat curtailed by the enormous engines nerfing builds.

But unlike unlocking ES which only benefits poor Clan mechs, unlocking engines flat out improves the already arguably OP Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and more to come. That way lies madness.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 27 March 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

As much as I'd love unlocked engines as a mechlab junkie player, seriously: Unlocking engines would be terrible for IS vs. Clan balance.

As it stands, Clan engines are a huge advantage for Clans, and that's only somewhat curtailed by the enormous engines nerfing builds.

But unlike unlocking ES which only benefits poor Clan mechs, unlocking engines flat out improves the already arguably OP Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and more to come. That way lies madness.

and as much as some nattering posts don't get it, one thing that PGI has done mostly OK; while not the balance side, is give each of the IS and Clan mechs a distinct flavor. As someone who plays both regularly, I rather value and enjoy that, and the inherent challenges and advantages of each.

As this OP amply demonstrates, I do believe possibly TOO much is locked (or maybe that the IS has too much unlocked?), and would love to see Endo/FF and DHS unlocked. In most of the mechs that Khobai claims will only ever use ballistics if the engine is unlocked for justice, most could use the ballistics quite well, with unlocked endo and freeing up 4 or more tons from DHS that ballistics builds don't need.

Well, that, and UACs that don't suck. But seriously, the TBR without those extra 5 locked DHS? Dual Gauss, no problem. Because let's face it, when most people say "clans and more ballistics" they are really saying "but I can't run dual gauss". Cauldron Born already will, right off the bat. A Mad Dog with Endo? Max armor, Dual Gauss and 5.5 tons ammo. A Gargoyle with endo and without 6 locked DHS? Thats 10 tons added. The Warhawk? 10 tons just for DHS and a whole side torso.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

if you had unlocked engines all Clan Mechs would pretty much become broken, on the spot, and the only balance would be to lock omni pods and globally nerf clan weapons even more than they are now.

Am I one of the few that is ok with this?
I would actually prefer the 1:1 parity of the tech bases over what we have now which is a huge mess of balance. That isn't to say that they become the same, but Clans having statistically better weapons to overcome weird disadvantages that are holdovers from TT that arbitrarily hamstrings mechs that already have issues just seems like a bad system to keep.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

and as much as some nattering posts don't get it, one thing that PGI has done mostly OK; while not the balance side, is give each of the IS and Clan mechs a distinct flavor. As someone who plays both regularly, I rather value and enjoy that, and the inherent challenges and advantages of each.

Absolutely. The "Unlock everything" crowd (and worse, Prosperity Park's "make everything the same" angle) both serve to destroy what makes the tech unique. We've got a lot of mechs, and there's a hell of a lot of crossover between different chassis these days. If Clan mechs and IS mechs worked in very similar ways... well, there'd be very little differentiation left. No thanks.

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As this OP amply demonstrates, I do believe possibly TOO much is locked (or maybe that the IS has too much unlocked?), and would love to see Endo/FF and DHS unlocked. In most of the mechs that Khobai claims will only ever use ballistics if the engine is unlocked for justice, most could use the ballistics quite well, with unlocked endo and freeing up 4 or more tons from DHS that ballistics builds don't need.

I definitely don't want to see IS have ES/FF locked. It'd make a ton of lore-wise sense, but from a game design standpoint it would be as bad as Clans having it locked - just arbitrarily nerfing random chassis whether they need it or not.

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Well, that, and UACs that don't suck. But seriously, the TBR without those extra 5 locked DHS? Dual Gauss, no problem. Because let's face it, when most people say "clans and more ballistics" they are really saying "but I can't run dual gauss". Cauldron Born already will, right off the bat. A Mad Dog with Endo? Max armor, Dual Gauss and 5.5 tons ammo. A Gargoyle with endo and without 6 locked DHS? Thats 10 tons added. The Warhawk? 10 tons just for DHS and a whole side torso.

Yup. Because really, until Clan AC's (be they AC, UAC, or LBX-AC) don't suck, the only Clan weapon that isn't currently used a lot that would be is Gauss. LRM's either already are used (low to mid level play) or won't be regardless (higher level play), SRM's already are used. People don't avoid clan AC's because they're too big or heavy, they avoid them because they're garbage.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 27 March 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

Am I one of the few that is ok with this?
I would actually prefer the 1:1 parity of the tech bases over what we have now which is a huge mess of balance. That isn't to say that they become the same, but Clans having statistically better weapons to overcome weird disadvantages that are holdovers from TT that arbitrarily hamstrings mechs that already have issues just seems like a bad system to keep.

No, you aren't. Khobai and Prosperity would be right with you. Fortunately for me (and unfortunately for you, I guess?), PGI seems to agree with me that variety is cooler and more fun. At least, that is their position at this time.

I think many people, and yes I will arrogate myself into that crowd, have come up with many solutions for opening things up for more parity, without watering down flavor and variety.

It¡'s not like PGI made any of this a secret before they implemented it.

[Wintersdark]

WM Quicksilver, on 27 March 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

Am I one of the few that is ok with this?
I would actually prefer the 1:1 parity of the tech bases over what we have now which is a huge mess of balance. That isn't to say that they become the same, but Clans having statistically better weapons to overcome weird disadvantages that are holdovers from TT that arbitrarily hamstrings mechs that already have issues just seems like a bad system to keep.

It is a bad system, but currently clans only have a couple statistically better weapons. Most of their weapons end up on par or worse, just really the LPL and ERML that are flat out superior. More, if you ignore quirks, but all IS mechs have quirks.

I'll agree that the quirk system band-**** way too much, and other fixes should have happened, but they're a fact now; that ship has sailed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

Fortunately for me (and unfortunately for you, I guess?), PGI seems to agree with me that variety is cooler and more fun. At least, that is their position at this time.

I think many people, and yes I will arrogate myself into that crowd, have come up with many solutions for opening things up for more parity, without watering down flavor and variety.

It¡'s not like PGI made any of this a secret before they implemented it.

Im going to point this out, variety and over-poweredness are two very separate ideas. You can have balance and variety at the same time, after all, that is kinda the point of balance, to increase variety/diversity.

I don't mind the UACs being burst-fire for their tonnage/size advantage, I just wish they were better implemented (wtb increased shell velocity).