653 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Antagonist, on 08 January 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

The thing you're looking for is Composite Structure and it's a few more years down the road. Same weight as Endo, no slot requirement but it halves structure HP.

But personally, I'm waiting on Endo-Composite. 4/7 crits for CL/IS and 75% the weight of Standard structure.

Lots of tech is just around the corner that will play a large part in potentially making IS OP due to powergaming. All the Clan equipment nerfs may have to be rethought then.

And I'm still waiting for my Mad Cat Mk IV with Ferro-Lamellor!

Endo-Comp would be kewl to have, but that doesn't fix STD internals being almost worthless outside of fringe builds and Dire Whales.

[darkkterror]

FupDup, on 08 January 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Endo-Comp would be kewl to have, but that doesn't fix STD internals being almost worthless outside of fringe builds and Dire Whales.

Fixing STD internals being worthless is something worthy of its' own thread. A thread that also covers the fact that SHS and FF are also worthless.

[Kuritaclan]

You have my support for this Bishop Steiner. I think too that there need to be a unlock on the ff/es upgrades. And since the Top mechs like SCR/TBR have it anyway there is no reason to set the rest of the pack behind and having a gap what everytime do not help the balance between clan and is.

Praehotec8, on 08 January 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

The more I think about it, the more this idea makes sense, and, when combined with a penalty to mech speed with destruction of a clan XL side torso, would put clan vs. IS balance in a pretty good place, IMO.

If one thinks about it, all the "good" clan mechs already have FF and endosteel, and the "bad" ones don't. Plus, name me some IS mechs (assaults aside) that DON'T use endosteel. This creates a scenario where the lack of endosteel largely negates the weight advantage of clan weapons, but is a poor balancing mechanic because only some omnimechs lack endosteel. It would be much better to even the field with regards to this mechanic, and to use another (such as clan ST destruction penalties) to balance clan mechs.

nopp no malus for clan-st destruction! This is no way to go. The slow walking mechs getting a blown st will be crippeld heavly by such an idea with locked engines. If we complain about 110kp/h lights, and you wann kill them even easier by making them 25% slower if they loose a side? I don't know man. And a unmastered dire with 48.6 kph down by 25% has a speed of a snail, well before it is light snail speed, but i don't know if 36,45kph/h are so appealing.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 08 January 2015 - 02:06 PM.

[FupDup]

darkkterror, on 08 January 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

Fixing STD internals being worthless is something worthy of its' own thread. A thread that also covers the fact that SHS and FF are also worthless.

Clan FF is at least kinda okay due to only being 7 slots (although still not as good as Clan Endo of course).

There have been threads about this topic and almost every other topic that has ever been made, but without much avail. It's basically an echo chamber, for better or for worse.

Edited by FupDup, 08 January 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[Mcgral18]

If PGI is still reluctant, just allow the mechs that have the inferior Ferro to simply replace it with Endo.

Suckonner gains 1.5 tons, while small, is still something.



It uses the same slots.

[Asyres]

Free endo for the poor, you say? Sounds like space robot socialism to me. Maybe if lazy taker omnimechs like the Nova would get off their lazy robutts and get a job, they could afford endo - and become useful contributors to society the match.



...




But seriously, I support this idea. Anything that gives players more options for good mechs is a good thing in my book.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 08 January 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

If PGI is still reluctant, just allow the mechs that have the inferior Ferro to simply replace it with Endo.

Suckonner gains 1.5 tons, while small, is still something.



It uses the same slots.

This line of thinking is Lostech. We can't have nice things.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 08 January 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Endo-Comp would be kewl to have, but that doesn't fix STD internals being almost worthless outside of fringe builds and Dire Whales.

even cooler might be focusing on options we have currently, that won't break the game, or take us down the Yellow Brick Road of balance yoyo-ing that Quirks seem destined to head to. Dontcha think?

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

even cooler might be focusing on options we have currently, that won't break the game, or take us down the Yellow Brick Road of balance yoyo-ing that Quirks seem destined to head to. Dontcha think?

I don't see much yoyo potential for buffing STD internals outside of indirectly buffing the Dire Whale.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

even cooler might be focusing on options we have currently, that won't break the game, or take us down the Yellow Brick Road of balance yoyo-ing that Quirks seem destined to head to. Dontcha think?

That would require a miracle.

I mean, I'm still waiting for the Gargoyle's movement archetype to change soon™.

"Baby steps" is not exactly PGI's forte at times.

[Asyres]

I wish they'd just unlock endo/ferro use for omnimechs, to be honest. While I understand the argument for using locked upgrades as a balancing factor, all it's really accomplishing is making Clan internal balance worse. Allowing the Nova or Warhawk to take Endo isn't going to make them better than the Stormcrow or Dire Wolf, but it will make them notably better.

The only problematic instance might be the Hellbringer, which would go from being pretty good to being very, very good, since it's main weakness at the moment is the lack of those upgrades.

[mark v92]

i aprove.

unlock endo but give it fixed slots

[Lily from animove]

Techorse, on 08 January 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

It would be rather interesting to see if the Nova would become more viable if it had endo. I'd likely end up spending all the extra tons on heat sinks if I was allowed to take endo steel, since what I'm running now is 6 ERML + 4 MG plus as many sinks as I can, and 2 jj.

Now I do like the idea of fixing the hardpoints that the endo steel takes up as well. So for example, putting fixed slots in the legs would prevent those designs from "stuffing their socks" with ammo. I'd have to know where the slots were going on each endoless design before I'd make my choice.

dunno, heat is not the nova's issue, and so I doubt it helps as much, i woudl if I coudl put that into engine, The mechs size requires speped more over cooling.

In the end, we should get the same free customisation as IS mechs, except the clanners don't have standard engines.

why?
because the outstanding strong clanmechs have all the stuff they need at their optimum. freeing full customisation on clanners will not make those mechs stronger. Give TBR bigegr engine and its gettign less threatenign by weapons. give it less engine and increase weapons and it will lsoe agility, makign it twist slower as well, it would be a lot easier target then.

Yet tehse changes can make the other mechs less pitiful.

maybe we should even get exchangable engines, but may be with a lot stronger restriction, like +- 20 enginesize from the TT values.

but JJ' and DHS should be unlocked.

The WHK suffers from all the fixed DHS, the summoner suffers from the fixed JJS and lack of endo. (also from missing hardpoint options, btu they re not part of the topic.)
The Nova suffers from its geometry and ES will not really help it with that problem. yet it would at least close a bit of the gap between it and the SCR.

so what could we do?

unlock JJ's
unlock fixed DHS
allow ES and FF to be chosen.
allow XL engines only to be chosen with a rate range of +- 20 if the current given rating.

Non of the current mechs who are top in the clans would get better, yet mechslike the garg can get a chance to compete with the TBR becasue that mech has an unhealthy amount of tonnage in its engine while it does not even have ES + FF.

Edited by Lily from animove, 08 January 2015 - 02:29 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 08 January 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

If PGI is still reluctant, just allow the mechs that have the inferior Ferro to simply replace it with Endo.

Suckonner gains 1.5 tons, while small, is still something.



It uses the same slots.

this would be a good fallback, compromise. Would IMO require some heavier quirking to compensate for a lot of mechs though.

But here is my Posterboy for unlocked Endo plus quirks:

Summoner Prime: Tier 4 Skirmisher (decent JJs and current quirks do help)
(Let's face it, all the "good" builds are based off parts from the other 2 versions)

-Endo frees up 3.5 tons

Weapon Quirks: (Stock based, as for the most part, PGI has rightly turned to)
-Energy Heat Reduction: 15% (The Summoner is remarked on for being a cool running mech)
-ER PPC Heat Reduction: 15%
-Ballistic Cooldown: 20%
-LB-10X Cooldown: 20%
-Additional Structure (Legs) 16 pts.

-And since I note not all mechs have followed 1 quirk per tier, if I could squeeze one more in, it would be a 30-40% velocity buff to that er ppc, like the Vindi gets. You only got 3 guns. Be nice to see them really effective. But I would take the other quirks first, for a certainty.

Mind you, there might have to be some consideration put into Quirks on Omnis, so that Pod Swapping doesn't create monsters (Perhaps "non native" Omni Pods just get the Generic Quirks of the Chassis, not the Specialized ones?)


Where as the D and B, would probably be tier 3, and due to higher number of hardpoints, probably lesser buffs.

Even "maximizing" the quirks, with the extra tonnage, the mech hardly becomes "OP" or even really TW level. But it would be dang solid and not a handicap to the team, and not require meta sniping builds.

FupDup, on 08 January 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

I don't see much yoyo potential for buffing STD internals outside of indirectly buffing the Dire Whale.

not what I was referring to.

I was referring to sticking to the topic, and not all the "future internals and armors and such" that might be, and stick to things that are "doable", now. Because otherwise, we are just going to see lots of quirks, and as we are seeing with the IS mechs, they are ....... not very good at consistency or moderation with those. Where Paul was "nerf everything", Russ appears to be "over buff everything".

Both approaches can be equally game breaking.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 January 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Deathlike]

Just remember that Clan FF-> Clan Endo (with Standard Armor) still screws the Nova.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lily from animove, on 08 January 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

dunno, heat is not the nova's issue, and so I doubt it helps as much, i woudl if I coudl put that into engine, The mechs size requires speped more over cooling.

In the end, we should get the same free customisation as IS mechs, except the clanners don't have standard engines.

why?
because the outstanding strong clanmechs have all the stuff they need at their optimum. freeing full customisation on clanners will not make those mechs stronger. Give TBR bigegr engine and its gettign less threatenign by weapons. give it less engine and increase weapons and it will lsoe agility, makign it twist slower as well, it would be a lot easier target then.

Yet tehse changes can make the other mechs less pitiful.

maybe we should even get exchangable engines, but may be with a lot stronger restriction, like +- 20 enginesize from the TT values.

but JJ' and DHS should be unlocked.

The WHK suffers from all the fixed DHS, the summoner suffers from the fixed JJS and lack of endo. (also from missing hardpoint options, btu they re not part of the topic.)
The Nova suffers from its geometry and ES will not really help it with that problem. yet it would at least close a bit of the gap between it and the SCR.

so what could we do?

unlock JJ's
unlock fixed DHS
allow ES and FF to be chosen.
allow XL engines only to be chosen with a rate range of +- 20 if the current given rating.

Non of the current mechs who are top in the clans would get better, yet mechslike the garg can get a chance to compete with the TBR becasue that mech has an unhealthy amount of tonnage in its engine while it does not even have ES + FF.

Heat is not the Nova's issue?

Maybe if you run small lasers. The idea of quirks and all is for the stockish builds to have some modicum of viability. And it's the rare Nova build that is not hot as aces.

Again, this is NOT a topic about unlocking Omnimech engines. Feel free to start one of your own to debate the merits of the idea, but since I am pretty vehemently against it, I would prefer not to have my thread hijacked on the subject, please?

Deathlike, on 08 January 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

Just remember that Clan FF-> Clan Endo (with Standard Armor) still screws the Nova.

And Hellbringer, since it has STD armor too. Though due to preponderance of hardpoints and ecm, it's not near as bad off..... (though it's pretty dang hot pretty much every build)

[Vanguard836]

Agreed as well, would help some of the less popular clan chassis, not all but some. The only worries would be hellbringer and Direwolf, don't get me wrong I wouldn't complain of extra weight on my hellbringers ( I like it stock, more armor and heatsinks but hey that's just me )

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

And Hellbringer, since it has STD armor too. Though due to preponderance of hardpoints and ecm, it's not near as bad off..... (though it's pretty dang hot pretty much every build)

Quite true. However, the Nova is stuck with quite a bit of locked equipment (external DHS, JJs) so the Hellbringer by comparison isn't suffering the same fate.

I don't mind any buffs to the Hellbringer, but I'm already raking in the rewards provided by the Jesus Box... so, that's the least of anyone's problems.

[Lily from animove]

Antagonist, on 08 January 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

The thing you're looking for is Composite Structure and it's a few more years down the road. Same weight as Endo, no slot requirement but it halves structure HP.

But personally, I'm waiting on Endo-Composite. 4/7 crits for CL/IS and 75% the weight of Standard structure.

Lots of tech is just around the corner that will play a large part in potentially making IS OP due to powergaming. All the Clan equipment nerfs may have to be rethought then.

And I'm still waiting for my Mad Cat Mk IV with Ferro-Lamellor!

I want a cute cat mk III pls

10E in such a cute 55ton emch, that totally what I would like to have.

Edited by Lily from animove, 08 January 2015 - 02:45 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vanguard836, on 08 January 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Agreed as well, would help some of the less popular clan chassis, not all but some. The only worries would be hellbringer and Direwolf, don't get me wrong I wouldn't complain of extra weight on my hellbringers ( I like it stock, more armor and heatsinks but hey that's just me )

Valid concerns, but most Hellbringers desperately need more DHS, and lets face it, space starts to be an issue, too. The Direwolf has about 1 build that might use Endo, the 4 Gauss, but really, you are not going to add much to that even then. And it's not that effective a build.