653 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

The JJs thing is an exception that PGI made for some weird reason that I'll never understand.

They seem to have made it for balance considerations, which is exactly what would be happening with the Warhawk except it would be in favor of the mech.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

Besides that, the JJs aren't attached to the "base chassis," PGI just fused them to the Omnipod. If they were actually wired to the "base chassis," then you would have those JJs in there no matter what pods you're using.

The point being if they have the tech to separate that, it's likely they could separate them from the base chassis for the Warhawk.

I mean, I'm guessing, but it doesn't seem like a real stretch to me.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

Well, excluding the fact that we have hardpoints to deal with instead of mounting anything anywhere if we have space and tonnage.

Unfortunately this is a pandora's box.

They seem to have instituted that rule to create difference among mechs, and then those differences separated good mechs from bad mechs, and then they added quirks to the bad mechs to try to make up for (some of them) having things located in bad places.

It's a lot of bandaids, but on the other hand allowing us to mount anything anywhere would probably end up with most mechs designed for hill humping.

Having no option to test it against what we have now, it's hard for me to make a clear judgement on what would actually be better.

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

i think you are mixing up Joe and Fup here. Can't recall Fub really ever making arguments based on "Cuz TT".

I was just making a statement, but yes I don't often see Fup argue for "Cuz TT" either.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 January 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

They seem to have made it for balance considerations, which is exactly what would be happening with the Warhawk except it would be in favor of the mech.

The sad thing is that it didn't really do that much for balance. The Timberwolf was mostly just slapped on the wrist by it, maybe loosing a few loadouts like LRM boating (which weren't meta to begin with). It ironically put more restriction on the Kit Fox than the intended nerf target TBR. The Nerf Gun's aim isn't always accurate...

For the WHK, it would help people who want to run ballistic boat style (i.e. 2 Gauss + 1 ERPPC) but wouldn't do all that much for energy/missile boaters (because they often need that many sinks as it is).

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

The point being if they have the tech to separate that, it's likely they could separate them from the base chassis for the Warhawk.

From a realistic standpoint yeah, but then again we're driving gigantic fusion-powered death robots.

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Unfortunately this is a pandora's box.

They seem to have instituted that rule to create difference among mechs, and then those differences separated good mechs from bad mechs, and then they added quirks to the bad mechs to try to make up for (some of them) having things located in bad places.

It's a lot of bandaids, but on the other hand allowing us to mount anything anywhere would probably end up with most mechs designed for hill humping.

I wasn't literally proposing being able to put anything anywhere, mind you. I already played that out in MW3 and it resulted in...problems. Things like Striders lagshielding around with 14 ER Small Lasers (and being somewhat heat efficient because MW3 heatsinks were a lot better than ours) and carrying 16 Flamers to make mechs instantly explode from critical overheating, CT coring an Atlas with 16 Heavy Machine Guns in less than 2 shots (MW3 MGs were really really damn lethal), boating craploads of ERML on everything....

Hardpoints are one of the best examples of a good lore deviation. It's speculated that the sheer exploits of MW3 are actually what caused Microsoft to create the concept for hardpoints for MW4 in the first place. However it happened, it was good that they did happen.

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

The sad thing is that it didn't really do that much for balance. The Timberwolf was mostly just slapped on the wrist by it, maybe loosing a few loadouts like LRM boating (which weren't meta to begin with). It ironically put more restriction on the Kit Fox than the intended nerf target TBR. The Nerf Gun's aim isn't always accurate...

For the WHK, it would help people who want to run ballistic boat style (i.e. 2 Gauss + 1 ERPPC) but wouldn't do all that much for energy/missile boaters (because they often need that many sinks as it is).



From a realistic standpoint yeah, but then again we're driving gigantic fusion-powered death robots.



I wasn't literally proposing being able to put anything anywhere, mind you. I already played that out in MW3 and it resulted in...problems. Things like Striders lagshielding around with 14 ER Small Lasers (and being somewhat heat efficient because MW3 heatsinks were a lot better than ours) and carrying 16 Flamers to make mechs instantly explode from critical overheating, CT coring an Atlas with 16 Heavy Machine Guns in less than 2 shots (MW3 MGs were really really damn lethal), boating craploads of ERML on everything....

Hardpoints are one of the best examples of a good lore deviation. It's speculated that the sheer exploits of MW3 are actually what caused Microsoft to create the concept for hardpoints for MW4 in the first place. However it happened, it was good that they did happen.

Limitation is important because, as you said, there were ridiculous degrees of exploitation in MW3. That said, on a purely thought experiment basis, I wonder how it would impact balance if omnipods, as limited by location and number of slots, were unlimited in type of slot. True omni in the sense that you can stick a laser there, or an LRM there, or an AC there. I mean, outside of the DWF, there is not exactly an overflowing sea of pod tonnage available to Clan mechs. How much would it impact balance if the hardpoints on a given omni-pod were not limited by type of weapon per slot, but with quirks preloaded onto the omnipods to softly push loadouts in one way or another?

Though I suppose unless Clan UAC/AC/LBX and ERPPC get a revision, there is not much sense in opening up customization options since everything will just become laservomit regardless.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 10 January 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

The sad thing is that it didn't really do that much for balance.

It did, to an extent. It was a small measure, it's the kind of small layered tweaks that are needed.

Not the "you will feel this hard" type of nerfing that the VTR/HGNs got.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

The Timberwolf was mostly just slapped on the wrist by it, maybe loosing a few loadouts like LRM boating (which weren't meta to begin with).

It lost a number of loadouts, and made other loadouts a bit less optimal.

It hit the 4x ASRM 6 brawler builds pretty solidly, you need to take minimum 4x JJs to pull that off.

So you lost tonnage, and you lost space to slot things, or you had to lose Artemis or drop down to SRM 4s.

To be clear, this was easily one of the strongest brawl builds in the game, so having it get nerfed pushed more people into other builds - typically laser vomit.


Laser vomit is strong, but as it's evolved it's also clear it's ludicrously hot and does not brawl well.

I've switched out to all CMPLs at this point, because the game is a bit faster and more brawly than it was when Clans first launched while it sometimes sucks to have a phase in a solo pug match where you can't trade effectively - it's almost guaranteed there will be a short or mid-range engagement and I'd rather be good and strong when that happens then get mauled by proper brawling builds in a laser vomit build that overheats repeatedly.

It ironically put more restriction on the Kit Fox than the intended nerf target TBR. The Nerf Gun's aim isn't always accurate...

I didn't say that, that was a part of Fup's quote I edited poorly.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

For the WHK, it would help people who want to run ballistic boat style (i.e. 2 Gauss + 1 ERPPC) but wouldn't do all that much for energy/missile boaters (because they often need that many sinks as it is).

It would help with slotting.

While you tend to want a lot of heat sinks for energy builds, you don't necessarily want an entire torso locked up with DHS or the clear advertisement to your enemies that if they remove your RT they can basically neuter you (like a missile build using the WHK-B RT).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 January 2015 - 12:09 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

It did, to an extent. It was a small measure, it's the kind of small layered tweaks that are needed.

Not the "you will feel this hard" type of nerfing that the VTR/HGNs got.


It lost a number of loadouts, and made other loadouts a bit less optimal.

It hit the 4x ASRM 6 brawler builds pretty solidly, you need to take minimum 4x JJs to pull that off.

So you lost tonnage, and you lost space to slot things, or you had to lose Artemis or drop down to SRM 4s.

To be clear, this was easily one of the strongest brawl builds in the game, so having it get nerfed pushed more people into other builds - typically laser vomit.

I'd be more willing to accept it if it was just restricted to the TBR only, while allowing other pod-jets like the KFX (and other future mechs like it) to remove them freely as they can remove their guns.


Not to derail this thread too hard, but the gist of my disapproval is that they made a global change (JJ omnipod rules) in order to affect a single specific outlier. Sort of like the fact that they nerfed [ER]PPCs for the single specific purpose of the 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss Dire Whale, but ended up making [ER]PPCs crap on every mech in the game (excluding super-quirked variants right now).

Global changes are best used for global impacts, and specific changes should be used when we only want a specific impact. The only JJ omnipods that cause[d] problems were the TBR-S, so those should have been the only ones affected.

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

It would help with slotting.

While you tend to want a lot of heat sinks for energy builds, you don't necessarily want an entire torso locked up with DHS or the clear advertisement to your enemies that if they remove your RT they can basically neuter you (like a missile build using the WHK-B RT).

With the FF and engine size being as they are, there's not much else place to put them.

On a side note, I actually calculated that I could actually have both Endo and FF at the same time on the Wubhawk, and 26 DHS, if I could upgrade the engine to a 375. Big engines are fun like that.

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

I'd be more willing to accept it if it was just restricted to the TBR only, while allowing other pod-jets like the KFX (and other future mechs like it) to remove them freely as they can remove their guns.

I know you don't want to hear this, but games designers need to be relatively consistent with rules changes like that.

Yes, I get it, the Kit Fox is really not a mech that needs nerfing. On the other hand JJs + ECM are the exact reasons it's "better than the badder".


On top of all that, with a bit of work ANY Kit Fox can choose to slot, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 full JJs simply by controlling what pods they do or do not take.



This is unlike the TBR. It needs to take a minimum of 2 if it want's any S ST and it needs to take 4 if it wants to take 4 missile launchers of any kind.


This is a subtle and elegant application. The Kit Fox is relatively unscathed, and has JJs that don't weigh all that much to begin with.


Result = TBR is slightly more effected by the tweaks losing both tonnage and usable torso space, Kit Fox can still effectively select exactly how many JJs it wants and has zero crit slot issues.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Not to derail this thread too hard, but the gist of my disapproval is that they made a global change (JJ omnipod rules) in order to affect a single specific outlier.

You don't know that, maybe they specifically did not like this particular interaction and wanted to nip it in the bud now and apply it evenly across all mechs out of fairness, as the Nova and Summoner are locked into JJs.


So you only see the TBR, but they are also seeing how it was (and still is to an extent) unfairly applied to the Nova and Summoner vs. Kit Fox and TBR, and then whatever mechs we get in the future that fall under this rule.



My opinion is that a global change is exactly what their goal was.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 January 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 10 January 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Sure, however, you're also applying an Inner Sphere mentality to a militaristic culture as well. It's a lot easier to "not question authority" when you're considered the top of the pecking order....to the point where you basically bully the lower castes. Each mechwarrior that passes his trial of position is going to have a number of Astechs assigned to his ride. It's the military, you know how it works.

Getting your 'techs to change out an engine, let's say, is just as easy for them to accomplish as it is for IS 'techs, possibly even easier. The difference is, in the Clans, you'd have to file the appropriate paperwork explaining the necessity of the change. Once approved by whatever level is required, it passes down to your 'techs and the job gets done.

In the IS, you find a 'mechbay and the appropriate people to get the job done, pay them and wait (or, if you're in a unit...well, we both know how that works, right? Some units have trouble keeping their maintenance up to date, let alone upgrading).


Again, it's moot. Which is probably the way it should be. How could you possibly work some kind of "issued equipment" thing into a F2P game that pretty much works like Mercenaries?

I wonder just how long the "invasion" has to take place before the question of using Clan 'tech comes up again. A year? Two? Eventually it's going to come to the point where people are going to start asking why they can't put a CUAC10 on their Atlas. Personally, I have no problem with it. Someone wants to trade their PPFLD for TTK....they're reasonably balanced, works for me.

Some Clanner wants to put an IS AC5 on his TW because he wants PPFLD instead of TTK? Ok...you get to deal with the weight and space allocation, just like everyone else. Tired of your XL Stalker dying every time it loses a ST? Use a Clan XL engine.....they're damned expensive, but worth the cost.

I really don't see the big deal at this point. And the "balancing act" is a work in progress....as long as they continue down these lines, it only makes sense.

Now get that New Engine you want when the command can only request X equipment due to what the TO&E is. And the Clans don't think that way. Might Makes right. Win the Trials If you want to have X. Otherwise you get what I give you.

I don't disagree with your thinking its just that Clanners are a very regimented society. They don'rt think to far outside the box in fact they may not even do more than peak outside.

A 55 ton LAM and a Warhammer IIC Fought 2 Heavy Omnimechs (Summoner and Hellbringer) to a draw and the LAM program was deemed a failure???

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

I know you don't want to hear this, but games designers need to be relatively consistent with rules changes like that.

Yes, I get it, the Kit Fox is really not a mech that needs nerfing. On the other hand JJs + ECM are the exact reasons it's "better than the badder".


On top of all that, with a bit of work ANY Kit Fox can choose to slot, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 full JJs simply by controlling what pods they do or do not take.



This is unlike the TBR. It needs to take a minimum of 2 if it want's any S ST and it needs to take 4 if it wants to take 4 missile launchers of any kind.


This is a subtle and elegant application. The Kit Fox is relatively unscathed, and has JJs that don't weigh all that much to begin with.


Result = TBR is slightly more effected by the tweaks losing both tonnage and usable torso space, Kit Fox can still effectively select exactly how many JJs it wants and has zero crit slot issues.










You don't know that, maybe they specifically did not like this particular interaction and wanted to nip it in the bud now and apply it evenly across all mechs out of fairness, as the Nova and Summoner are locked into JJs.


So you only see the TBR, but they are also seeing how it was (and still is to an extent) unfairly applied to the Nova and Summoner vs. Kit Fox and TBR, and then whatever mechs we get in the future that fall under this rule.



My opinion is that a global change is exactly what their goal was.

which is why I argued for something that actually would make sense, like strap on JJs being less efficient thrust/slower recharge than dedicated.

But hey, instead everyone gets hover jets.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

I know you don't want to hear this, but games designers need to be relatively consistent with rules changes like that.

Yes, I get it, the Kit Fox is really not a mech that needs nerfing. On the other hand JJs + ECM are the exact reasons it's "better than the badder".

On top of all that, with a bit of work ANY Kit Fox can choose to slot, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 full JJs simply by controlling what pods they do or do not take.

This is unlike the TBR. It needs to take a minimum of 2 if it want's any S ST and it needs to take 4 if it wants to take 4 missile launchers of any kind.

This is a subtle and elegant application. The Kit Fox is relatively unscathed, and has JJs that don't weigh all that much to begin with.

Result = TBR takes more hits, Kit Fox can still effectively select exactly how many JJs it wants.

The main thing that irks me is that the Fox's non-JJ side torsos are almost pointless, so the Alt-S are the only real choices most of the time...but now they have a penalty to them, on a mech that isn't particularly amazing to begin with. It also removes the choice of using a UAC/2 in the LT, which was a fun choice for trollololololol builds.

I'd rather have the Prime and D sides (and legs) actually be worth something. It's also sad that the agility nerfs are still present on S legs even with the hardwired jets now.

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

-pic-
...
You don't know that, maybe they specifically did not like this particular interaction and wanted to nip it in the bud now and apply it evenly across all mechs out of fairness, as the Nova and Summoner are locked into JJs.
...

By that logic, they would also have any pod-mounted heatsinks be locked in as well, because some mechs (namely WHK right now) are "unfairly" locked with them, so clearly if 1 robot has them locked we need to lock them on all robots.

Also, why not hardlock pod-mounted Flamers while we're at it, because the (B)Adder isn't very happy with its not-usable CT energy hardpoint...


In the end, I've always felt that hardwired equipment should simply function more powerfully than removable equipment. So that Puma's head Flamer should be a lot stronger than one slapped on a Cute Fox or whatever, the JJs on a Thor should give more lift/thrust/stuff than a Mad Cat's, etc. Yes, that also means that a WHK's hardwired ST dubs should trump optional dubs installed on other mechs.

But alas, we can't have nice things.

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Willard Phule, on 10 January 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Some Clanner wants to put an IS AC5 on his TW because he wants PPFLD instead of TTK? Ok...you get to deal with the weight and space allocation, just like everyone else. Tired of your XL Stalker dying every time it loses a ST? Use a Clan XL engine.....they're damned expensive, but worth the cost.

I really don't see the big deal at this point. And the "balancing act" is a work in progress....as long as they continue down these lines, it only makes sense.

cXLs cost the same as isXLs. A couple mechs could deal with 2 tons and 2 crit slots. Not the lighter stuff.


I don't think mixtech has a place with the current state of faction balance. IS wouldn't have any downsides. It would be straight up better than Omnimechs.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

With the FF and engine size being as they are, there's not much else place to put them.

On a side note, I actually calculated that I could actually have both Endo and FF at the same time on the Wubhawk, and 26 DHS, if I could upgrade the engine to a 375. Big engines are fun like that.

With Endo, the Nova could upgrade to a 300XL and lose a half ton; which is a good thing, because of max armour it's off a half ton anyways.

Or it could use a 280, move 99, and gain a ton. It could also fit a DHS in the engine, saving a few now limited crit slots.

[Fate 6]

I'm pretty sure thevl Gargoyle and Nova are the only mechs that could use Endo at all and even then idk if the Nova has space. It can't even handle 12ERSL as is. It's more a matter of locked JJs and heat sinks (and I'm looking at you Adder flamer and Warhawk LT/legs)

[Bishop Steiner]

Fate 6, on 10 January 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure thevl Gargoyle and Nova are the only mechs that could use Endo at all and even then idk if the Nova has space. It can't even handle 12ERSL as is. It's more a matter of locked JJs and heat sinks (and I'm looking at you Adder flamer and Warhawk LT/legs)

so a Summoner or Mad Dog or Hellbringer couldn't use Endo?

Interesting.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

which is why I argued for something that actually would make sense, like strap on JJs being less efficient thrust/slower recharge than dedicated.

But hey, instead everyone gets hover jets.

For me this is a consistency issue.

I'd rather see those quirks just be built directly into the Nova & Summoner (which might still happen) rather than make this a global rule.

Because my IS mechs can still take just 1 JJ, so either their JJs have to be even less effective than now (which would be laughably bad) or for some reason Timber Wolves and Kit Foxes have worse JJ technology than everyone else, including IS mechs who can remove or add them willy nilly

.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

The main thing that irks me is that the Fox's non-JJ side torsos are almost pointless, so the Alt-S are the only real choices most of the time...but now they have a penalty to them, on a mech that isn't particularly amazing to begin with. It also removes the choice of using a UAC/2 in the LT, which was a fun choice for trollololololol builds.

1) Taking 1 JJ is not a penalty.
2) The S STs have no in-built negative quirks (the S legs do, but we haven't gotten the real clan quirk pass yet - I expect these to be removed).
3) UAC/2 in LT, ok so ... put it in the RT and don't run something silly like 2x UAC 2s with 3 tons of ammo in a Kit Fox?

This a silly troll build that shouldn't even be encouraged to begin with, worrying that the UAC 2 can't be in the LT and can only be in the RT is quibbling over details for the sake of it, rather than for any inherent improvement to the mech or the game.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

I'd rather have the Prime and D sides (and legs) actually be worth something. It's also sad that the agility nerfs are still present on S legs even with the hardwired jets now.

It's not sad, it's pending. The clan quirks will come, let's come back to this conversation then.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

By that logic, they would also have any pod-mounted heatsinks be locked in as well, because some mechs (namely WHK right now) are "unfairly" locked with them, so clearly if 1 robot has them locked we need to lock them on all robots.

No, that's flawed logic.

JJs are special, not every mech can have them. Every single clan mech can take DHS - and the Warhawk's omni-pods tend to lend themselves to high heat to begin with.


We're talking about letting some mechs swap in and out of JJs, which have unique functionality, vs. mechs that have 5 locked JJs in a game where 1 to 3 tons is enough for nearly every build.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

In the end, I've always felt that hardwired equipment should simply function more powerfully than removable equipment.

Again, wait for clan quirks before we judge this.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 January 2015 - 12:29 PM.

[Ultimax]

Fate 6, on 10 January 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure thevl Gargoyle and Nova are the only mechs that could use Endo at all and even then idk if the Nova has space. It can't even handle 12ERSL as is. It's more a matter of locked JJs and heat sinks (and I'm looking at you Adder flamer and Warhawk LT/legs)

If you are running 12 ERSL you have no need of Endo.

Endo would be for other load outs.


Mad Dog it would depend on the build, Hell Bringer & Summoner could comfortably use Endo on many load outs - especially those that focused on fewer, heavier weapons as opposed to those trying to boat smaller, lighter weapons (something the Summoner is bad at anyway).

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

1) Taking 1 JJ is not a penalty.
2) The S STs have no in-built negative quirks (the S legs do, but we haven't gotten the real clan quirk pass yet - I expect these to be removed).
3) UAC/2 in LT, ok so ... put it in the RT and don't run something silly like 2x UAC 2s with 3 tons of ammo in a Kit Fox?

This a silly troll build that shouldn't even be encouraged to begin with, worrying that the UAC 2 can't be in the LT and can only be in the RT is quibbling over details for the sake of it, rather than for any inherent improvement to the mech or the game.

Hardwiring Fox jets didn't provide any inherent improvement to the mech or the game.

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

It's not sad, it's pending. The clan quirks will come, let's come back to this conversation then.
...
Again, wait for clan quirks before we judge this.

The current rule is that mechs with JJs or ECM get one quirk removed, and the KFX has the ability to use both... The SMN and NVA also have jets, but at least they don't have ECM (-1 quirk instead of -2 quirks).

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

No, that's flawed logic.

JJs are special, not every mech can have them. Every single clan mech can take DHS.

So we're talking about specialness? Should ECM and AMS get hardwired to their own respective pods?

[Mcgral18]

Fate 6, on 10 January 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure thevl Gargoyle and Nova are the only mechs that could use Endo at all and even then idk if the Nova has space. It can't even handle 12ERSL as is. It's more a matter of locked JJs and heat sinks (and I'm looking at you Adder flamer and Warhawk LT/legs)

A quick SSW lets you make some nice enough stuff.

ERPPC, 12 ERSL with only 19 DHS and a TC1. Hot, but allows for a long range weapon. 1 crit slot free.

12 SPL, 20 DHS is also another (or ERML, but HOT).


Honestly, Endo is limited in use with the Nova. It would allow for some ballistic builds, such as 6 ERSL, torso mounted Gauss with 3.5 tons of ammo, and 1 free ton for TC1, or something. Or max armour with 30 rounds and no TC1.

Edited by Mcgral18, 10 January 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I'm certainly quite guilty of ignoring corerules...

In this case I've actually grown to accept the Omni system (for the most part). Which is actually very ironic, because before the Clans came, I know that I hated them and asked for the Omnimechs to be handled like 100% like Battlemechs instead (like previous MW games did). I think I might also remember you being on the opposite side?

The Mister-Potatohead system of pod swapping is more fun than I expected it to be, and trying to work around the restricted base chassis proved to be an interesting min-max challenge (except for really bad base chassis like the Gargles...). It's kind of like a puzzle, trying to fit all of the pieces into place just right...

I'm right with you here. Omnimeh customization is fun - it was actually this that for much the same reason got me on board with Bishop's hardpoint sizes. Limits make minmaxing fun.

The ES/FF thing though, its not tradeoffs. Its not "do I want X, or Y" each with their shares of pros and cons (whether those pros and cons are balanced at face value or not)... Its just an arbitrary "this mech sucks a bit more than that one, because reasons."

Unlock es/ff, nothing else.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 10 January 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

A quick SSW lets you make some nice enough stuff.

ERPPC, 12 ERSL with only 19 DHS and a TC1. Hot, but allows for a long range weapon. 1 crit slot free.

12 SPL, 20 DHS is also another (or ERML, but HOT).


Honestly, Endo is limited in use with the Nova. It would allow for some ballistic builds, such as 6 ERSL, torso mounted Gauss with 3.5 tons of ammo, and 1 free ton for TC1, or something. Or max armour with 30 rounds and no TC1.

2.5 more tons would also allow an LB-20X ( RA and 6 ER Smalls in the (Prime) LA (and 3.5 tons of ammo). Or an LB-10X (B-RA), 3 tons ammo, 6 ERSmalls (Prime LA) and 4x MG (S-RT/LT) with 1.5 tons of ammo. Which would probably be my "go-to" build. Or I might use the S-Arms on it, and toss the LB-X into the torso with 3 MG. Cost me an MG and some flex though, so IDK if in the end I would like that)

It also would make the ER LArge(or PPC for some armor off the arms)/Gauss ST "sniper" doable, I suppose. Or increase the available DHS for 2x ER PPC, etc.

or a plethora of other outside the box builds.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 January 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

Hardwiring Fox jets didn't provide any inherent improvement to the mech or the game.

It reduced the variance between locked JJs on some mechs and "not locked" on other mechs, while simultaneously not even negatively affecting the Kit Fox in any way that matters.

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

So we're talking about specialness? Should ECM and AMS get hardwired to their own respective pods?

Are they listed as hardlocked on mechs on sarna?

But for fun, since you seem to want to nit pick, hardlocked ECM would affect zero builds (people take it anyway and none of the mechs with it are strapped for crit slots in that location) - AMS can be worked around due not all variants having AMS and most of the AMS pods are often ones that have no weapons in them.

So, woopdie do?

I see I'm not going to change your mind on this, so I guess feel free to hold a grudge about some ruling that doesn't even negatively affect the Kit Fox.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 January 2015 - 12:49 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

wow. Thanks for turning my thread into your personal debate platform guys. We got a nice PM function if you're just going to restate the same thing 20 different ways.

K, thx.