653 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Well, which mechs would benefit the most?

Whale Prime? 8 lasers and 2 Gauss is pretty standard. Though....there is the amusing thought of going STD, Endo and then putting two gauss rifles in the same ST (on that one Dakka variant). More seriously, up engine at the cost of Endo.


Nova Prime could make use of it. Grab Endo, up engine to move 100, laserboating all along the way. Nova S wouldn't be too bad either, but not quite as nice. The cost of MGs.


I can't think of other optimal ones at the moment....but it would be a nice idea for the most part.

All the already good mechs don't suffer... it's the bad ones that suffer more.

FupDup, on 14 January 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

I just noticed that the TBR-S comes with a ballistic in each side torso...convert to Battlemech, drop engine, add dual Gauss.

Okay, that pokes a hole in the idea.

Although this raises a different question: Is this a problem with certain mechs/chassis getting luckier than the rest, or is the idea itself bad? In theory, less crazy stock hardpoint layouts wouldn't be OP'd by this. It might also raise questions about the effectiveness of Clan guns themselves, which are somewhat kept in check by the Omnimech restrictions (excluding everybody's favorite outliers of course).

The worms have been sufficiently unleashed from their can...

If you build something that involves minimal omnipod changes (so good, you can keep that terribad 5% omnipod XP bonus), then it's usually "sufficient". I have no problem building a Summoner-B or Summoner-D straight up, but so many other mechs suffer.

Besides the Summoner-Prime, the Gargoyle-Prime suddenly becomes garbage. The Adders become really bad (well, not so much the A variant). Kitfoxes don't have a proper role (until they come out with the complete Kitfox-C)... they won't have the same value at the very least. The Mist Lynx-Prime would become a total gimmick mech and the Hellbringer-B is some sort of sad joke.

Good luck with that.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 January 2015 - 02:36 PM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 14 January 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

I just noticed that the TBR-S comes with a ballistic in each side torso...convert to Battlemech, drop engine, add dual Gauss.

Okay, that pokes a hole in the idea.

Although this raises a different question: Is this a problem with certain mechs/chassis getting luckier than the rest, or is the idea itself bad? In theory, less crazy stock hardpoint layouts wouldn't be OP'd by this. It might also raise questions about the effectiveness of Clan guns themselves, which are somewhat kept in check by the Omnimech restrictions (excluding everybody's favorite outliers of course).

The worms have been sufficiently unleashed from their can...

Even if you use TT construction rules (engine size by weight) there can be some nice things to be made.

Laughably, the Suckonner D. Downgrade to 280, move 71KPh, Endo, 4 JJs, 10 DHS, ERPPC, 2 Gauss rifles, 75 rounds.


That's with nipple cannons, and a low mounted ERPPC. If it isn't TT engine sizes, drop the ERPPC for 4 ERSLs, move 81 instead.



Things could get out of hand, though the eventual Clam BattleMechs might have the same issue.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Techorse, on 08 January 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

It would be rather interesting to see if the Nova would become more viable if it had endo. I'd likely end up spending all the extra tons on heat sinks if I was allowed to take endo steel, since what I'm running now is 6 ERML + 4 MG plus as many sinks as I can, and 2 jj.

Now I do like the idea of fixing the hardpoints that the endo steel takes up as well. So for example, putting fixed slots in the legs would prevent those designs from "stuffing their socks" with ammo. I'd have to know where the slots were going on each endoless design before I'd make my choice.

Would the nova benefit from endo? It would then get 7 less criticals to work with.

It looks like the Nova wouldnt really benefit to much. I mean, even if you put just 8 MLs on it, you might save 2t or so from Endo, but would only buy enough tonnage for like 1 more DHS.

Both the Nova and Warhawk would benefit far greater from a very large Heat dissipation quirk, far more then any endo. 20-25% Heat dissipation quirk, paired alongside the 10% Energy Heat generation for the WHK and a 15-20% for the Nova and they both would jump a tier.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 14 January 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

...
Things could get out of hand, though the eventual Clam BattleMechs might have the same issue.

Maybe if PGI powercreeps existing mechs hard enough, the Clan BM issue might sort itself out? At least for some cases. As with Omnis, there are always outliers...

There would need to be a few design principles applied...

1. Clan BM's get no positive quirks.
2. Clan BM's get no hardpoint inflation beyond stock.
3. Probably more strict engine limits as well. In particular, the minimum engine limit shouldn't be all the way down at 100 like the IS has. Their engines should be limited from both the top end and bottom end.

[Andi Nagasia]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 January 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Would the nova benefit from endo? It would then get 7 less criticals to work with.

It looks like the Nova wouldnt really benefit to much. I mean, even if you put just 8 MLs on it, you might save 2t or so from Endo, but would only buy enough tonnage for like 1 more DHS.

Both the Nova and Warhawk would benefit far greater from a very large Heat dissipation quirk, far more then any endo. 20-25% Heat dissipation quirk, paired alongside the 10% Energy Heat generation for the WHK and a 15-20% for the Nova and they both would jump a tier.

if the Nova and WarHawk got those quirks yes life would be alittle easier for them,
but in the case of both and Endo the Nova gets +2.5tons, the WarHawk +4tons,

Nova + Endo = 18.5FreeTons,
2AC5U(45shots-each) + 4ER-SL,
1ER-PPC + 12ER-SL + 1CAP + 5DHS,
6MPL + 6SPL + 1Flamer(for the Lols),
1Gauss(25shots) + 1ER-LL,
4ER-LL + 4MG(3000),

WarHawk + Endo = 36.5FreeTons,
4LPL + 4SRM6(16shots-each) + TC1 + CAP,
4ER-LL + 4S-SRM6(25shots-each) + TC1 + CAP,
4Er-PPC + 1LRM15(24shots) + 7DHS,
4ER-LL + 4LRM15(18shots-each),

[Bishop Steiner]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 January 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Would the nova benefit from endo? It would then get 7 less criticals to work with.

It looks like the Nova wouldnt really benefit to much. I mean, even if you put just 8 MLs on it, you might save 2t or so from Endo, but would only buy enough tonnage for like 1 more DHS.

Both the Nova and Warhawk would benefit far greater from a very large Heat dissipation quirk, far more then any endo. 20-25% Heat dissipation quirk, paired alongside the 10% Energy Heat generation for the WHK and a 15-20% for the Nova and they both would jump a tier.

Would the Nova Prime benefit? No. Not stock much, anyhow. But the B and S certainly would. On th eS, I'd drop the AMS and ammo, up to 2 tons MG ammo, and be able to easily slap in 2 more DHS and max the armor with that last .5 tons. Pure win for it.

Just like with IS mechs there are always some builds that endo doesn't help. My "stock(ish)" K2, for instance needs the space for DHS more than the tons, so no Endo on it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 January 2015 - 05:20 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 January 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

if the Nova and WarHawk got those quirks yes life would be alittle easier for them,
but in the case of both and Endo the Nova gets +2.5tons, the WarHawk +4tons,

Nova + Endo = 18.5FreeTons,
2AC5U(45shots-each) + 4ER-SL,
1ER-PPC + 12ER-SL + 1CAP + 5DHS,
6MPL + 6SPL + 1Flamer(for the Lols),
1Gauss(25shots) + 1ER-LL,
4ER-LL + 4MG(3000),

WarHawk + Endo = 36.5FreeTons,
4LPL + 4SRM6(16shots-each) + TC1 + CAP,
4ER-LL + 4S-SRM6(25shots-each) + TC1 + CAP,
4Er-PPC + 1LRM15(24shots) + 7DHS,
4ER-LL + 4LRM15(18shots-each),

What I think he is looking at is like on the Nova-Prime, it stock, only has 8 remaining crits, so with 7 taken, you can't really fit more. But really that is only an issue if you want to fill all 12 weapon slots.....in which case, don't equip the endo, lol.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 January 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

What I think he is looking at is like on the Nova-Prime, it stock, only has 8 remaining crits, so with 7 taken, you can't really fit more. But really that is only an issue if you want to fill all 12 weapon slots.....in which case, don't equip the endo, lol.

Actually, if you remove the hand actuators, the Prime loadout fits fine with 20 DHS, with one slot remaining. Or just remove 1 and be at 100%.

So, any fixed slots would screw it over, free would be a straight buff (as Endo always is).

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

Actually, if you remove the hand actuators, the Prime loadout fits fine with 20 DHS, with one slot remaining. Or just remove 1 and be at 100%.

So, any fixed slots would screw it over, free would be a straight buff (as Endo always is).

The Hand Actuator removal looks kinda cool on the mechs that have them. On the other hand, it does restrict the arm movement (but not noticeably much).

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 14 January 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

The Hand Actuator removal looks kinda cool on the mechs that have them. On the other hand, it does restrict the arm movement (but not noticeably much).

Hm...2.8 heat capacity or 2.5(?) degrees of arm movement....

Decisions, decisions.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

Hm...2.8 heat capacity or 2.5(?) degrees of arm movement....

Decisions, decisions.

I believe it's 10 or 15 degrees (or somewhere in between), depending on the chassis. Although, that could just be the upper arm actuator (the one that controls arm movement).

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 14 January 2015 - 06:09 PM, said:

I believe it's 10 or 15 degrees (or somewhere in between), depending on the chassis. Although, that could just be the upper arm actuator (the one that controls arm movement).

The LAA is the one that gives big movement; I've heard hands give a little but never tested.

They crit pad, that's all I know for sure.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

The LAA is the one that gives big movement; I've heard hands give a little but never tested.

They crit pad, that's all I know for sure.

Yea, crit padding is a nice bonus I guess, but ultimately it's just "there". A slight arm articulation increase would be OK for the hand actuator though...

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

Actually, if you remove the hand actuators, the Prime loadout fits fine with 20 DHS, with one slot remaining. Or just remove 1 and be at 100%.

So, any fixed slots would screw it over, free would be a straight buff (as Endo always is).

you could also use bap, and tc one on it, or an additional ams + 1t ammo.

But int he end Nova has bigger problemts than firepower and heat. its the whole mechs geometry being the true issue.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Why not just ask PGI to give every mech and a bay 4 each mech 4 free, along with at least 8 of every weapon and all mods for all mechs JFC the "give me pweese" Is sickening around here.

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 15 January 2015 - 02:52 AM.

[SaltBeef]

Someone miss Nap time!!........I think yer in the wrong thread Doooood! They talking bout ENDO STEEL!

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

Hm...2.8 heat capacity or 2.5(?) degrees of arm movement....

Decisions, decisions.

exactly this is how a good game should work, a decision with real consequences and where things truly differ, But on many mechs some laodouts are a no-brainer where anything else is just inferior instead of different.

[Tombstoner]

Lily from animove, on 15 January 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

exactly this is how a good game should work, a decision with real consequences and where things truly differ, But on many mechs some laodouts are a no-brainer where anything else is just inferior instead of different.

But that's because of an arbitrary assignment of hard points taken from TT. The designers where concerned more with flavor text then min maxing.... The ember is a great example of this.... 8 energy hard points. mostly because of a P2W choice, but the fire starter template its derived from would suck in MWO unless you mod the mech. since its flamers you default to energy hard points thus you get a beastly light mech...

This games going to continue running into this sort of issue.. particularly when we start getting starleague mechs....

[Mister Blastman]

signed

[Bishop Steiner]

Tombstoner, on 15 January 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

But that's because of an arbitrary assignment of hard points taken from TT. The designers where concerned more with flavor text then min maxing.... The ember is a great example of this.... 8 energy hard points. mostly because of a P2W choice, but the fire starter template its derived from would suck in MWO unless you mod the mech. since its flamers you default to energy hard points thus you get a beastly light mech...

This games going to continue running into this sort of issue.. particularly when we start getting starleague mechs....

Always felt Flamers, MGs and AMS should all have been a separate hardpoint category entirely, like a "Support Weapon". Then you wouldn't have people cramming in Gauss where MGs were, or turning the flamer hardpoints of a TDR-9S into Lightning Guns of Doom.

True, the Ember would be useless, atm, (although 8 mg might be fun...or 8 AMS) or maybe it would have forced them to rethink the flamer instead of just assuming you will swap it for a mlasers, anyhow?