653 replies to this topic

[Vocis]

Andi Nagasia, on 27 March 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

so Clans shouldnt get anything until they Nerf,
1) a mech that hasnt come out yet and we dont know how big it will be?
2) a 55Ton Medium that is very Very good but not too hard to kill if you know where to shoot?
3) a 75Ton Heavy that is the Cream of the Crop in use, that has a JJ animation Problem?
um i dont know about the first, but the other 2 are Very Good, but not OP,
just as hte FireStarter is Very Good but not Fully OP,

You are correct that a few clan mechs could use Endo or FF.

But please do not downplay the Stormcrow and Timberwolf. They are the best mechs in MWO by huge margins.

They desperately need nerfs.

[MechaBattler]

I think I like the idea someone else proposed a while back. Might have even been Bishop. Who knows. I can't remember anymore. But the idea was to buff standard structure. Probably an internal hit point bonus across the board. That way getting endo isn't just a straight upgrade to power that it is right now. It would be a choice between lighter weight or more survivability.

[Andi Nagasia]

Zolaz, on 28 March 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

You might not know this but in CW you get to chose your drop deck. When you are in defense you dont need to waddle your way anywhere. If you cant kill a Stalker with your Direwolf and another mech or two, you might need to get some more practice in.

Question not trying to Troll but in what world is,
(1KFX(30T) & DWF(100T) = 130T) better than (1SCR(55T) & 1TBR(75T) = 130T)
i dont Run Meta Drop Decks and even i know which is better in any mode,

Personally my Drop Deck is 1KFX(ECM AMS Boat) 1NVA(ER-SL Boat) 1SCR(LRM5 Boat) 1TBR(LRM15 Boat)

Edit- this

Vocis, on 28 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

You are correct that a few clan mechs could use Endo or FF.

But please do not downplay the Stormcrow and Timberwolf. They are the best mechs in MWO by huge margins.

They desperately need nerfs.

perhaps but i dont feel they are "the Best By Huge Margins" they are only the Best in 2-3 Builds,
their shape makes it so they can easily roll damage and have very good speeds for what they are,
but lowering Turn Speed and or reworking HitBoxs could bring them in line with out much Nerfing,

dont get me wrong they are the best Unquirked mechs in MWO,
but i dont feel they are the best by a Huge Margin, many IS mechs do what they do better,
but they have flexibility to compete with several mechs and do many jobs which is their strength,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 28 March 2015 - 07:26 AM.

[Khobai]

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Clan ballistics other than Gauss are bad

And as I said before, the ultimate goal should be to equalize all clan weapons.

The problem is you cant equalize all clan weapons if clan mechs can ONLY use lasers due to tonnage constraints.

As long as locked engines are a thing, the net result will be laser spam....

Quote

I think I like the idea someone else proposed a while back. Might have even been Bishop. Who knows. I can't remember anymore. But the idea was to buff standard structure.

Standard structure already gets a buff in the form of extra crit slots.

The problem is mechs with standard structure like the Summoner dont have enough free tonnage to use
all those extra crit slots due to their obnoxiously large engines.

If the Summoner could reduce its engine size then it would have the free tonnage to put those extra crit slots to use.

Locked engine rating fails to adequately balance IS and Clan mechs. Its time to unlock the clan engines and instead target the real culprit: the weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 28 March 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 28 March 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

And as I said before, the ultimate goal should be to equalize all clan weapons.

The problem is you cant equalize all clan weapons if clan mechs can ONLY use lasers.

As long as locked engines are a thing, the net result will be laser spam....

that has already been demonstrated to be bullcrap, but keep stumping for it, lol.

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

and as much as some nattering posts don't get it, one thing that PGI has done mostly OK; while not the balance side, is give each of the IS and Clan mechs a distinct flavor. As someone who plays both regularly, I rather value and enjoy that, and the inherent challenges and advantages of each.

As this OP amply demonstrates, I do believe possibly TOO much is locked (or maybe that the IS has too much unlocked?), and would love to see Endo/FF and DHS unlocked. In most of the mechs that Khobai claims will only ever use ballistics if the engine is unlocked for justice, most could use the ballistics quite well, with unlocked endo and freeing up 4 or more tons from DHS that ballistics builds don't need.

Well, that, and UACs that don't suck. But seriously, the TBR without those extra 5 locked DHS? Dual Gauss, no problem. Because let's face it, when most people say "clans and more ballistics" they are really saying "but I can't run dual gauss". Cauldron Born already will, right off the bat. A Mad Dog with Endo? Max armor, Dual Gauss and 5.5 tons ammo. A Gargoyle with endo and without 6 locked DHS? Thats 10 tons added. The Warhawk? 10 tons just for DHS and a whole side torso.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 March 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[Khobai]

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that has already been demonstrated to be bullcrap, but keep stumping for it, lol.

If it was bullcrap the clan meta wouldnt be laser spam.

Clan weapons arnt internally balanced. That is why they only use lasers.

If clan weapons were internally balanced then clan mechs would use a mix of weapon types like IS mechs do.

Since reducing the tonnage of clan ballistic weapons isnt really an option, the only other option is to unlock the engine ratings. Its the only feasible way to get clan mechs to use ballistics again (that and a combination of nerfing clan lasers and buffing clan ballistics which PGI is looking at doing anyway)

Edited by Khobai, 28 March 2015 - 08:13 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 28 March 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

If it was bullcrap the clan meta wouldnt be laser spam.

Clan weapons arnt internally balanced. That is why they only use lasers.

If clan weapons were internally balanced then clan mechs would use a mix of weapon types like IS mechs do.

Truth.

Quote

Since reducing the tonnage of clan ballistic weapons isnt really an option, the only other option is to unlock the engine ratings. Its simply the only way to get clan mechs to use ballistics again (that and a combination of nerfing clan lasers and buffing clan ballistics which PGI is looking at doing anyway)

Absurd.

People don't use Clan ballistics because they are bad, not because they are too heavy (they aren't) or because they have inadequate tonnage available (re: large engines). It's trivial to bring an UAC10 or UAC5 with your Timberwolf; yet pretty much nobody does.

Why? Because Clan lasers are great, better than IS lasers, while Clan ballistics are utter trash and substantially worse that IS ballistics.

As we said before, give Clan's more tonnage to play with, and you'll see more Clan Gauss Rifles, not more autocannons.

[Khobai]

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People don't use Clan ballistics because they are bad, not because they are too heavy

Then why do Daishis use x5 UAC5s? And why is that a strong build?

The truth is clan ballistics arnt that bad. They just require boating in order to be good.

Taking a single ballistic weapon is not effective because of their low pinpoint damage. So you need to take multiple ballistic weapons before it starts to be effective. That requires tonnage.

Quote

As we said before, give Clan's more tonnage to play with, and you'll see more Clan Gauss Rifles, not more autocannons.

So balance the clan gauss rifle. Slow down its fire rate.

Make it so both weapons are equal but different:
-Gauss does more pinpoint but fires slow
-Autocannons do more dps and fire fast

You act like internally balancing weapons is hard or something... its not.

But again, the first problem we need to tackle is the fact clan mechs cant even experiment with ballistics in the first place due to tonnage constraints. That needs to be fixed.

The second problem is equalizing the weapons themselves.

Edited by Khobai, 28 March 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[kapusta11]

Khobai, on 28 March 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

If it was bullcrap the clan meta wouldnt be laser spam.

Clan weapons arnt internally balanced. That is why they only use lasers.

If clan weapons were internally balanced then clan mechs would use a mix of weapon types like IS mechs do.

Since reducing the tonnage of clan ballistic weapons isnt really an option, the only other option is to unlock the engine ratings. Its simply the only way to get clan mechs to use ballistics again (that and a combination of nerfing clan lasers and buffing clan ballistics which PGI is looking at doing anyway)

Nerfing or buffing individual weapons will do little. The true issue was and still is a combination of weapons of the same type or rather the damage they deal in a single hit. 4xPPC Stalker and later Gauss+3xPPC Highlander poptart? Nerfed by Ghost Heat. Gauss/AC20/2xUAC5/2xAC5+2xPPC? Nerfed by projectile speed desync. The reason we have laser vomit meta is the same - stack weapons that sync well with each other and off you go.

Edited by kapusta11, 28 March 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 28 March 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

Clan weapons arnt internally balanced. That is why they only use lasers.

you get it partly right. You myopically miss the reasons why or the ramifications for your idea.

Clan ballistics are ignored , as Wintersdark said, not due to weight. But because the burst mechanic is inherently inferior, especially as presented, and it is compounded because if one is going to have a DoT weapon, laser are lighter, and thus, more efficient at it.

All unlocking engines will do if free up enough tonnage that people will cram even more DHS (until they figure out that they need those big engines to house quite a few) and add Gauss to the Laser Spam on more mechs. Which is pretty much what you already see. Gauss and Lasers on Stormcrows, TWolves, Warhawks, Direwolves, etc.

Most mechs can already pack ballistics, and many heavies and assaults can carry more than 1, easily. But they suck. And clan lasers, comparatively,. are ezmode. So why WOULD i devote 10 tons to a bulky weapon that needs ammo...if my 6 ton LPL and some DHS does the job better? And doesn't take a lot of space or run out of ammo.

Heck, the last thing anyone needs is a 350XL packing Direwolf with 37 tons of weapons running around.

Khobai, on 28 March 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

Then why do Daishis use x5 UAC5s? And why is that a strong build?

The truth is clan ballistics arnt that bad. They just require boating in order to be good.

Taking a single ballistic weapon is not effective because of their low pinpoint damage. So you need to take multiple ballistic weapons before it starts to be effective. That requires tonnage.



So balance the clan gauss rifle. Slow down its fire rate.

Make it so both weapons are equal but different:
-Gauss does more pinpoint but fires slow
-Autocannons do more dps and fire fast

You act like internally balancing weapons is hard or something... its not.

But again, the first problem we need to tackle is the fact clan mechs cant even experiment with ballistics in the first place due to tonnage constraints. That needs to be fixed.

The second problem is equalizing the weapons themselves.

and yet it require boating to insane degrees, to get there. And mostly due to lowheat/ high RoF.

You aren't going to see most mechs suddenly running 2-3 LBX because in general, they suck.

Almost any weapon beside the flamer is effective when you boat 6 of them.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 March 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Most mechs can already pack ballistics, and many heavies and assaults can carry more than 1, easily. But they suck. And clan lasers, comparatively,. are ezmode. So why WOULD i devote 10 tons to a bulky weapon that needs ammo...if my 6 ton LPL and some DHS does the job better? And doesn't take a lot of space or run out of ammo.

Heck, the last thing anyone needs is a 350XL packing Direwolf with 37 tons of weapons running around.

hah yeah, while I usually use the Timberwolf as an example of the horror unlocking engines on Clan mechs would release, the Direwolf is probably an even better example.

Going to a 350XL would cost the direwolf 6.5 tons. That's trivial for a mech with 50.5 tons of pod space, you'd be down to 44t of weaponry and rocking the battlefield at 62kph. While that's only roughly +9.5kph, it's a very important speed difference and even more importantly a massive increase in twist and turn speeds.

I'd still sport twin gauss and a brace of lasers, with a more than adequate cooling system. But I'd twist and turn faster, so be able to better bring those guns to bear on targets and keep up with the team.

Currently, you play a DWF and the slow speed is a serious disadvantage that requires your whole team to slow down, play more static (or just leave you to die).

[Khobai]

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and yet it require boating to insane degrees, to get there. And mostly due to lowheat/ high RoF.

Quote

You aren't going to see most mechs suddenly running 2-3 LBX because in general, they suck.

Not necessarily. Look at the Centurion for example... it makes a single LB10X work due to quirks. Quirks can also make ballistics work for clan mechs.

Quirks for clan mechs would be part of the internal balancing process.

Quote

Heck, the last thing anyone needs is a 350XL packing Direwolf with 37 tons of weapons running around.

Um you realize that even IS mechs have engine caps right? For example the Stalker is capped at 315. You can simply cap the Direwolf at a 300 engine. You wouldnt have to worry about Dire Wolves with 350 engines if theyre capped at 300 max.

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All unlocking engines will do if free up enough tonnage that people will cram even more DHS

Ive already addressed this. Its called internal balancing. Obviously if you unlock engine rating you have to rebalance the weapons. Der.

Moving on...

Unlocking engine rating has many other benefits you ignore. Like clan lights being almost unusable due to how slow they are. It also fixes assaults like the masakari/gargoyle/gladiator which suffer due to obnoxiously large engines and lack of firepower. And weve already covered how engine caps can prevent abuse like it does on IS mechs.

Again unlocking engine rating is not just about getting clan mechs to use a more diverse range of weapons. Its also about fixing the other core problems clan mechs have like lights that only go 107kph. That is not okay. Lights need to go 150kph or theres really no point to piloting one.

Edited by Khobai, 28 March 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[kapusta11]

Wintersdark, on 28 March 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

hah yeah, while I usually use the Timberwolf as an example of the horror unlocking engines on Clan mechs would release, the Direwolf is probably an even better example.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Night_Gyr production year 3052
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kodiak same TRO

[Bishop Steiner]

kapusta11, on 28 March 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Night_Gyr production year 3052
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kodiak same TRO

We are quite aware, and I think what you will find containts it some? Is that it will be going at what is in MWO, assault mech speeds. People complain about mechs being over engined, yet the norm for a 75 tonner in in the 340-350 range.

The real horror story ain't the Night Gyr at 64 kph, but a Timby running around with a 340-350 and shaving an extra 4-6 tons to weapons.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 March 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The real horror story ain't the Night Gyr at 34 kph, but a Timby running around with a 340-350 and shaving an extra 4-6 tons to weapons.

Again... engine caps. The game already has both minimum and maximum caps on engines.

You can easily cap the Timberwolf at 360-375 engine rating.

Quote

People complain about mechs being over engined, yet the norm for a 75 tonner in in the 340-350 range.

340-350 isnt overengined though.

Its mechs with 355-400 that are overengined, because those engines cost absurd amounts of tonnage.

Clan assaults with 400 engines just dont work.

Edited by Khobai, 28 March 2015 - 09:09 AM.

[kapusta11]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 March 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

We are quite aware, and I think what you will find containts it some? Is that it will be going at what is in MWO, assault mech speeds. People complain about mechs being over engined, yet the norm for a 75 tonner in in the 340-350 range.

The real horror story ain't the Night Gyr at 34 kph, but a Timby running around with a 340-350 and shaving an extra 4-6 tons to weapons.

If you don't have enough firepower as the result of tonnage or hardpoint constraints like Ice Ferret being overengined is indeed bad, otherwise speed = less facetime and with CXL engine you risk nothing.

Night Gyr will have 71 kph movement speed and JJs, based on my experience piloting XL280 Cataphracts I say that's more than enough.

[Khobai]

Quote

If you don't have enough firepower as the result of tonnage or hardpoint constraints like Ice Ferret being overengined is indeed bad, otherwise speed = less facetime and with CXL engine you risk nothing.

Its not just the Ice Ferret. Every single clan light gets screwed by locked engine ratings.

The best solution remains to unlock engine ratings and impose engine caps on any mech that could abuse unlocked engine ratings. You would fix most clan mechs overnight without making mechs like the madcat/daishi any better.

[kapusta11]

Khobai, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

The best solution remains to unlock engine ratings and impose engine caps on any mech that could abuse unlocked engine ratings. You would fix most clan mechs overnight without making mechs like the madcat/daishi any better.

Can't say that I don't agree, that would be a good band-aid fix that will help most clan underperfomers, of course untill PGI release the mechs I've mentioned above and everyone sees that unlocking full customisation at that point will change little.

Edited by kapusta11, 28 March 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Problem is you don't have much room for buffing Clan ballistic - i run dual Lb5x, Ultra 10 or LB20X on Gargoyle - Ultra 10 and 20 on Warhawk, again 5,10 on Summoner, 10 and
20 on Crow.
Problem is they need a time for the players to adjust, but hell a ultra 10 means an endless stream of 2.5dmg bullets - well same as the ac2 dakkas of the past.

[Bishop Steiner]

Karl Streiger, on 28 March 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Problem is you don't have much room for buffing Clan ballistic - i run dual Lb5x, Ultra 10 or LB20X on Gargoyle - Ultra 10 and 20 on Warhawk, again 5,10 on Summoner, 10 and
20 on Crow.
Problem is they need a time for the players to adjust, but hell a ultra 10 means an endless stream of 2.5dmg bullets - well same as the ac2 dakkas of the past.

sure you do. It's in 2 areas, your shorten the burst, and you increase projectile speed. some need tweaks more than others. UAC10 is about the only halfway decent tuac the clans have.

If they were truly as useful as you think , the comps would be running them.