653 replies to this topic

[Col Jaime Wolf]

bishop we arent allowed to have nice things i thought we had been over this.

[Repasy Cooper]

Lightfoot, on 29 March 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

No. What I find is that if the Clan mech has no Endo Steel it is restricted to Energy weapons that are capped by heat. Clan Missiles are highly nerfed and virtually worthless unless boated to the extreme, but that requires the mech has lots of missile hard points. I can go along with the locked Engines at this point because the mech gets the benefit that the Engine bestows. However, the locked equipment and internals/armor is not working and is not balanced. It is so out of balance that it can't be fixed with Quirks.

Right now I can tell PGI not to bother making the Gladiator, it's junk in their locked down Clan Mechlab, but I guess enough players will buy it to make it worth making. I will not be one of them. It's just the Summoner revisited. 8 tons of fixed Jump-Jets and 5 tons of ST internals leaves it with a payload of 25 or so tons. That's not an assault mech except in Stock Mechs Only.

And that is the issue. Mechs with FF and Endo and no jump-jets will be the edge that the Clans are balanced on and the rest will never compete. You can't nerf every Clan mech with Endo and FF so instead let every Clan mech equip Endo and FF. It's like a reverse nerf to arrive at a functional balance that makes owning Clan mechs as fun as owning Inner Sphere mechs.

Truth is I hate most of my Clan mechs because the load-outs are so Vanilla. I mean for cryin out loud the Clan weapons are just a little lighter and smaller than Inner Sphere versions and already heavily nerfed with spread damage and duration. PGI is acting like they are all some kind of BFG Gun.

And omnimechs can be modified as easily as standard mechs in Mechlab because Mechlab is not part of Battle Tech. Mechlab is the player's Mech Factory created for MechWarrior games and Mechs can be completely redesigned into new variants in a Mech Factory in Battle Tech. Got that? MechWarrior's Mechlab is a Mech Factory for Battlemech redesign.

Neg. MWO's Mechlab is NOT A MECH FACTORY, it is a retrofit lab for modifying manufactured mechs. Think of PGI as the designer/manufacturer of mechs, and you are the purchaser. When you buy a state-of-the-art-death-machine-killer-robot, do you immediately strip the whole thing down and redesign it from scratch? Neg. If you have to go through that trouble why did you buy the trash-bucket in the first place? The Mechlab is your personal garage. THAT'S IT. You are not a warehouse full of scientists and machine laborers building from scratch, you are a single pilot. At MOST you have a skeleton crew capable of swapping equipment from the mech. You are bound by the manufacturer's design constraints, and there's nothing you can do about it. Omnitech is a design philosophy that allowed for customizable pod space at the price of locked components. END OF STORY.

If you don't like it, that's tough buddy. PGI's never gonna compromise on the defining features of omnitech. I mean seriously, what you're asking for is basically for every Clan mech to be a customizable powerhouse so you can reck house. This is not "Build-the-meanest-baddest-machine" online, this is MechWarrior Online: A BATTLETECH GAME.

[Karl Streiger]

Repasy, on 29 March 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

If you don't like it, that's tough buddy. PGI's never gonna compromise on the defining features of omnitech. I mean seriously, what you're asking for is basically for every Clan mech to be a customizable powerhouse so you can reck house. This is not "Build-the-meanest-baddest-machine" online, this is MechWarrior Online: A BATTLETECH GAME.

OK - got you - all IS Mechs have to used locked chassis (engine, hardpoint slots (size+weight but not class), structure, heatsinks, armor, case, ammunition storrage)
You may swap a UAC5 and a AC 2 for a Gauss - but you can't do it for a AC20. You may swap a AC 10 for 2 Large and 2 Medium Laser. But thats it - that are field refit kits.
If PGI is the factory you should not modify the stuff we can do since the beginning.

Anyhow - locked internals made it impossible to balance IS vs Clan. Well there is still imbalance in the game - when you unlock heatsinks, structure and armor - because some Mechs: KitFox, Adder - don't get any advantage.
Well and this is the second crux of the current balance - and the "WRONG" BattleTech conversion.

A 400XL on a 80t Mech is a powerful asset in TT - the other option is the 320 STD for 4t less. There is no other option. But while in TT the 400XL is valid because it generates better defensive modifers - while in MWO....16kph on a Chassis like the Gargoyle is nothing - a 320 STD for this Mech would also include 12t more podspace. And yes a 320XL for the Gargoyle would be a powerhouse - with max FF armor - and locked standard structure it would have 38.5ton of pod space.
And you know what the real problem is? Its not the engine its not the locked structure in this case - its the fact that going from a 4/6 towards a 5/8 TT movemnt rating won't give you any benefit in MWO. Same for the 5/8 to 6/9

Heck you need a complete "redo" for the mobility and speed ratings of all ClanMechs, this is necessary if we got "unlocked" stuff or not. The question is how much work should PGI have with this "change" - unlocked stuff will "reduce" the balance difference between TimberWolf vs Summoner vs Gargoyle - so that any "movement" quirks in the second step won't have to be Stalker4N or Wubverine Style

[Lightfoot]

@Repasy

Nope. No Mechlab in Battle Tech. Mechlab allows essentially new player made variants to be constructed in MechWarrior. New variants are made in a Mech Factory according to Battle Tech.

You can't have it both ways that Inner Sphere mechs are mod-able from top to bottom in Mechlab, but Clan mechs are blocked. Why? Because that is counter-canon and the reverse of the Lore. It's the Inner Sphere mechs that are fixed and hard to make any change to and the omnimechs that can be changed on the fly.

So obviously Mechlab functions like a Mech Factory does in Battle Tech or these Inner Sphere mechs would take months and about 100 million CBills to modify. Certainly there is a great deal of flexibility in Mechlab at the very least. I also think you are confusing omnimech Field Modifications and trying to extend them into a Mechlab rules set.



.

Edited by Lightfoot, 30 March 2015 - 05:13 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

this Topic is getting alot more traffic on Twitter,
hopefully Clan Players will get some options in their Omni-mechs,
hopefully Russ can see reason with this, and we will see progress,

[Kuritaclan]

Why I bring this up, because i think the quirk pass show how messed up some Clan Mechs are. The quirks confuse people, they are of the variants incositent or don't add enough value when looking at CTs of the GAR with Weaponhardpoints and non. And so on. Also i hate it when every weaponsystem behaves slightly diffrent on other mechs (But i guess this is my own problem).

PGI should have gone first this way and unlock endo/ff/jj/dhs to the poors, to see if this would bring them in line to the better performers. And in case that wouldn't have made up and the usage compared to the better mechs would have still remain under the wishes, then quirks may have been the cherry on the pie.

IdK - this quirk pass makes me sad.

[Andi Nagasia]

Quirks are good, but it would take allot to off set the Tonnage/Shape of some Omni mechs,

[Anakha]

Quirks are just not getting it done at all, two quirk passes now and its just not helping. They just aren't giving any quirks that effect combat performance enough. We need ES and removable JJ's for all clan mechs to balance them.

[Andi Nagasia]

this was once again a question for TownHall but was dodged once again,

[Anakha]

I had posed this question during the Town Hall but NGNG decided to edit the questions i submitted and not ask it to Russ. Pretty dirty on their part.

[Deathlike]

This is NGNG. Why are you surprised?

[Karl Streiger]

Have to bring a reminder:

just because - they are for sale:

• Warhawk WHK-C
  
  • 6,190 MC
    
  • 15,473,201 C-Bills
• Gargoyle GAR-C
  
  • 6,295 MC
    
  • 15,733,594 C-Bills

The Gargamel is more expensive as the more versatile Warhawk - reason the 400XL engine. Its the most expensive piece of equipement - and it don't give the Gargamel an advantage in speed nor the agility boost is worth the missing 11t of weapons.

So simple question who should be sane enough but some "stupid fans of the Gargamel" (like me) to pay more for less?

Not to mention that the Gargoyle "right arm" is missing activators, (I place my bet that the MurderCrow B to come - would have those activators)
and of course i should add that i think that the placement of the Ultra 20 in the left arm in the Gargoyle C was a mistake by FASA when made the TRO3050 - so the Gargoyle C is in 3 cases a victim of poor quality management of the past and the present

[Chuanhao]

Why not go the whole way and allow FF as well?

And in fairness, should allow mechs with endo and FF to remove it as well

but in principle, I am against further complicating the difficult task of balance. Quirks and weapons is enough as it is.

in fact, finding a way to play "difficult" mechs is part of the fun.

Allow this and we might as well go further and allow removal of DHS on a warhawk, JJ on a TBR and so on we will then lose whatever character these mechs have.

[Andi Nagasia]

Again unlocking Endo will allow for better Clan to Clan Balance,
as it is now only Mechs with Endo matter for Clan, TBR, SCR,
the up and coming ACH SHC and EBJ,

as ive posted

Andi Nagasia said:

Mechs with Endo that will not Change,
Lights(MLX)(KFX)(ADR), Mediums(IFR)(SCR), Heavies(TBR),
so to recap the SCR/TBR will not be buffed by this change!

Mechs without Endo that will Change and gain more Tonnage(+Number=ExtraTons)
Mediums(NVA+2.5), Heavies(MDD+3)(HBR+3)(SMN+3.5), Assualts(GAR+4)(WHK+4)(DWF+5)
so to recap the DWF gets the most Benefit from this, but it already has more Tons than it can use!

can we really say that 3-3.5 tons will make all these mechs over powered?
and please dont say "Lore says No so it has to be No" if we followed Lore fully,
Battle-mechs wouldnt be able to change Upgrades or Engines as well,

[Bishop Steiner]

NVA-PRIME

boy howdy imagine how well 2 more DHS and an extra ton of armor would serve this poor fella once the big bad clan laser boogie man strikes!

And yes... unlockable endo would indeed make that possible and be useful, for a Nova.

But Novas can't really use the tonnage, they say.....

Meh.

[Repasy Cooper]

Karl Streiger, on 17 April 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

Have to bring a reminder:

just because - they are for sale:

• Warhawk WHK-C
  
  • 6,190 MC
    
  • 15,473,201 C-Bills
• Gargoyle GAR-C
  
  • 6,295 MC
    
  • 15,733,594 C-Bills

The Gargamel is more expensive as the more versatile Warhawk - reason the 400XL engine. Its the most expensive piece of equipement - and it don't give the Gargamel an advantage in speed nor the agility boost is worth the missing 11t of weapons.


So simple question who should be sane enough but some "stupid fans of the Gargamel" (like me) to pay more for less?

Not to mention that the Gargoyle "right arm" is missing activators, (I place my bet that the MurderCrow B to come - would have those activators)
and of course i should add that i think that the placement of the Ultra 20 in the left arm in the Gargoyle C was a mistake by FASA when made the TRO3050 - so the Gargoyle C is in 3 cases a victim of poor quality management of the past and the present

If I'm not mistaken, the Gargoyle was conceptualized as a cheap front line omnimech with easy to replace parts. The reasoning behind majority of the weapons being located in the arms was for logistical purposes, ie. switching a minimal # of omnipods quickly for different missions. For TT, its low BV cost made it an ideal choice for BV battles.

None of these advantages translate to MWO, so it's no surprise that it may seem lackluster. Still, the speed does give it an edge, and some configurations can be quite deadly in the right situation. I recommend all-laser builds, they pack the most punch.

[xe N on]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 October 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

NVA-PRIME

boy howdy imagine how well 2 more DHS and an extra ton of armor would serve this poor fella once the big bad clan laser boogie man strikes!

And yes... unlockable endo would indeed make that possible and be useful, for a Nova.

But Novas can't really use the tonnage, they say.....

Meh.

necro thread.

But anyway. I would propose to link customization of clan mechs with ferro / endo upgrades. My idea is to unlock endo / ferro for all clan mechs, however:

1) no endo / ferro: engine rating can be modified by +/- 25 from it's original state, jump jets / mask / etc. can be removed

2) add endo: engine is hard locked to mech's standard engine

3) add ferro: jump jets / mask / etc. can not be removed

If you choose both endo + ferro, you have the current state of clan mechs as e.g. the Timberwolf. If you only choose one, then you remain slightly more flexible in your configuration. And if you choose none, it's almost like an IS mech, but comparably more restrictive.

This would balance the superior clan-endo and clan-ferro with it's IS counterpart.

Edited by xe N on, 16 October 2015 - 10:28 PM.

[SaltBeef]

Does not matter anyway PGI is not following TT so allow the Endo switch and more players will be happy .

[Bishop Steiner]

xe N on, on 16 October 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

necro thread.

But anyway. I would propose to link customization of clan mechs with ferro / endo upgrades. My idea is to unlock endo / ferro for all clan mechs, however:

1) no endo / ferro: engine rating can be modified by +/- 25 from it's original state, jump jets / mask / etc. can be removed

2) add endo: engine is hard locked to mech's standard engine

3) add ferro: jump jets / mask / etc. can not be removed

If you choose both endo + ferro, you have the current state of clan mechs as e.g. the Timberwolf. If you only choose one, then you remain slightly more flexible in your configuration. And if you choose none, it's almost like an IS mech, but comparably more restrictive.

This would balance the superior clan-endo and clan-ferro with it's IS counterpart.

Not necro is the point is still valid and the fight still being fought. It does have the most comprehensive debate about the whether or not the Clan need their endo unlocked on the forums.

Anyhow, as to your post...... an interesting idea, but even a year after release, I really don't like the JJs being unlocked as an idea. If anything I wish they would lock them on IS chassis, too, to minimize the abuse. Seeing Victors without JJs, let alone Summoners,is just sad, if one wasn't a non jumping Summoner, we have that....it's the Hellbringer. I get the frustration, like on the Highlander, but the solution is to restore JJs, and simply do more to affect targeting while jumping. CoF, shake the whole time, whatever. Remove hoverjets, period, and lock JJs on everything,

Engine lock I am actually fine with. I would be fine with Endo even, if Clan Weapons and weren't so nerfed and heat addled, and DHS weren't bad. Endo would do a huge amount to even up the balance between clan mechs, as I suppose ferro would.

And as a totally selfish aside, yeah, being able to remove non engine Heatsinks I would be OK with.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 October 2015 - 05:35 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

With the introduction of the Clan IIC, and Russ' seeming enjoyment of the state of balance they have, it might be time to bust out the necronomicon on this thread.

Important to note by unlocking Endo and Ferro options is that it won't benefit the best clan mechs at all. ACH, SCR, TBR, EBJ all come fully upgraded, and the DWF already runs out of space before tonnage so would not want either. Unlocking the options can, however, marginally improve the Nova, Mad Dog, Summoner, Gargoyle, and Executioner. It might slightly over improve the HBR, but if given TBR style weapon neg quirks it could be brought into line.

In short, it improves, instantly, most of the under performing mechs with little to no impact on the "problem" mechs whatsoever. It also provides a few more options for the extremely limited omnimechs. Keep in further mind that IS omnimechs that we will probably see eventually are usually horribly optimized. This would help them directly, too, down the line.