653 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Yup, should happen, and Fixed Endo Points could be used for Balance like in my Topic,
(Should Omnimechs Be Allowed To Upgrade To Endo & Change Engine Type? Discussion!)
See NVA / HBR / DWF In my Topic for Reference,

[Johny Rocket]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 December 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

Yup, should happen, and Fixed Endo Points could be used for Balance like in my Topic,
(Should Omnimechs Be Allowed To Upgrade To Endo & Change Engine Type? Discussion!)
See NVA / HBR / DWF In my Topic for Reference,

I have no problem with that if IS gets weapons with the same weight, tube count and range as clans.

[Mister Blastman]

Summoner should be able to mount ferro, endo and have removable jump jets. Oh, and torso energy hardpoints. Because it is the coolest looking 'mech in the game, that's why.

[Pariah Devalis]

Tractor Joe, on 17 December 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

I have no problem with that if IS gets weapons with the same weight, tube count and range as clans.

Considering the success of IIC to be balanced, despite their EXTREME freedom in configurability when compared to Omni.... No. Unnecessary. If the Clan weapons are in balance when given the best of both worlds, then there is no harm in giving the underperforming mechs the access to ferro and endo.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tractor Joe, on 17 December 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

I have no problem with that if IS gets weapons with the same weight, tube count and range as clans.

no offense, but that really makes no sense, considering the actual balance reality as it stands.

Mister Blastman, on 17 December 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

Summoner should be able to mount ferro, endo and have removable jump jets. Oh, and torso energy hardpoints. Because it is the coolest looking 'mech in the game, that's why.

you'll never get me to support removable JJs, (though you could get me to support locked one on IS mechs). Every time someone strips JJs from a Jumping mech a puppy somewhere dies.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

you'll never get me to support removable JJs, (though you could get me to support locked one on IS mechs). Every time someone strips JJs from a Jumping mech a puppy somewhere dies.

One Day Bishop One Day,

but ya, their is really no reason we cant Balance BattleMechs to OmniMechs now,
they need to be better balanced, Unlocking Upgrades could do that,
But those Upgrade Slots would need to be Fixed like other Omnis,

all that said heres how it could work,
lets use the NVA as an Example,
1st Upgrade= 7Fixed Slots(1CT 3LT 3RT) so only 3 Slots left in each ST,
2nd Upgrade= 7Fixed Slots(1HD 3LA 3RA) so only 6 Slots left in each arm,
so for 20.16 Tons the NVA would only have 18 Slots left 12 Lasers and 2DHSs,

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

no offense, but that really makes no sense, considering the actual balance reality as it stands.


you'll never get me to support removable JJs, (though you could get me to support locked one on IS mechs). Every time someone strips JJs from a Jumping mech a puppy somewhere dies.

Then make those jets useful and worthwhile. That's 5 tons of meh space. Make them do stuff like dodging and super high jumping.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 17 December 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Then make those jets useful and worthwhile. That's 5 tons of meh space. Make them do stuff like dodging and super high jumping.

Eh, they aren't terrible (relatively speaking...alL JJS are terrible compared to TT, or even where they "were") but I would not mind seeing my jump agility returned....more for the VTR, HGN and EXE's sake. Poptarting always was nerfed the wrong way, and jumpers who use mobility to BE mobile should not be penalized above their tonnage tax for people using an ezmode crutch tactic... when a simple tweak to the current reticle shake would have sufficed.

[Dagorlad13]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

Eh, they aren't terrible (relatively speaking...alL JJS are terrible compared to TT, or even where they "were") but I would not mind seeing my jump agility returned....more for the VTR, HGN and EXE's sake. Poptarting always was nerfed the wrong way, and jumpers who use mobility to BE mobile should not be penalized above their tonnage tax for people using an ezmode crutch tactic... when a simple tweak to the current reticle shake would have sufficed.

Thank the [LORD]s for exploiting poptart Victors and getting JJs nerfed.

[Wintersdark]

Tractor Joe, on 17 December 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

I have no problem with that if IS gets weapons with the same weight, tube count and range as clans.

See, this is where the stupid comes in.

Do you not understand how locked ES/FF does not balance anything?

Locked ES/FF simply pre-nerf some mechs, while they do nothing for others. For example, the Timberwolf doesn't care that it has locked ES/FF - it would use them anyways. On the other hand, the Summoner just doesn't have them.

Does this help nerf Clans to make them and IS nicely competitive? No. It does not. It just ensures Clanners use Timberwolves instead of Summoners.

So, put your thinking cap on for a moment. This isn't a matter of poor IS getting screwed. You are, in your ill-thought post, advocating for more imbalance between IS and Clans (in favour of the clans) by continuing the disparity between good and bad clan mechs because so many people (like you) are trying to determine "Clan Faction Power" as an average of mech strength between all the chassis. That's the ONLY sense in which locking ES/FF is a nerf to clans.

Of course, Clan power is essentially only the strength of the mechs that actually get used.

Why do I badger on about this?

Because with ES/FF unlocked, all the clan mechs are usable. If Clans are stronger than the IS then, faction level nerfs can be applied (see weapon changes, etc) and have much more reliable, predictable results that don't disproportionately mangle already bad mechs. This doesn't make the faction stronger - All the high powered Clan mechs are totally unaffected.

[Pariah Devalis]

Wintersdark, on 18 December 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Because with ES/FF unlocked, all the clan mechs are usable. If Clans are stronger than the IS then, faction level nerfs can be applied (see weapon changes, etc) and have much more reliable, predictable results that don't disproportionately mangle already bad mechs. This doesn't make the faction stronger - All the high powered Clan mechs are totally unaffected.

And unfortunately, thinking like his is why good conversation and progress cannot easily come from our community. Sadly people take a ridiculous US vs THEM standpoint and can't stay objective or logical. Those like that probably only read as far as "clan buffs" and instantly throw a tantrum, totally ignoring all the logic that points towards it only benefiting the bad clan mechs that are in no way, shape, or form part of the perceived "problem" such as it is, while leaving the good ones untouched, for all practical senses of the word.

It's literally why we cannot have nice things.

Well, that, and the Boatmaster Dire Wolf.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 18 December 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[pbiggz]

Pariah Devalis, on 18 December 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

And unfortunately, thinking like his is why good conversation and progress cannot easily come from our community. Sadly people take a ridiculous US vs THEM standpoint and can't stay objective or logical. Those like that probably only read as far as "clan buffs" and instantly throw a tantrum, totally ignoring all the logic that points towards it only benefiting the bad clan mechs that are in no way, shape, or form part of the perceived "problem" such as it is, while leaving the good ones untouched, for all practical senses of the word.

It's literally why we cannot have nice things.

Well, that, and the Boatmaster Dire Wolf.

Never mind the fact that the IS has ludicrous structure quirks. Lets keep saying the clans are overpowered, it makes GD feel good in its loins.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 18 December 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Never mind the fact that the IS has ludicrous structure quirks. Lets keep saying the clans are overpowered, it makes GD feel good in its loins.

Ya know what, though? I like that the IS has structure buffs. I've felt for a while now that a good way to balance C-XL vs IS mechs is to simply increase the structure of IS mechs. Make the IS mechs harder to break, but make the Clan mechs more survivable if something DOES break. If they went ahead and gave REASONABLE (lolrightBJ-1X) durability quirks to all the IS mechs and left the C-XL as it was without the speed reduction, I honestly think there would be a good tradeoff there. Not that I find the speed reduction game breaking or unduly hampering as it is, either.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 18 December 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 18 December 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Never mind the fact that the IS has ludicrous structure quirks. Lets keep saying the clans are overpowered, it makes GD feel good in its loins.

well, at the upper end, alpha predator level, results show they still are.

Of course, if one equalized the gap between good and bad clan chassis, then it would be easier to get a clear picture on balance as a whole and actually FIX things in a meaningful, sensible way.

We can't have that.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

well, at the upper end, alpha predator level, results show they still are.

Of course, if one equalized the gap between good and bad clan chassis, then it would be easier to get a clear picture on balance as a whole and actually FIX things in a meaningful, sensible way.

Totally agree, a simple Change as Most Clan OP Comments Come from Laser Vomit,
take all Clan Lasers, -1Damage, -1Heat, & Adjust Durations there now its abit more Balanced,

[Pariah Devalis]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Totally agree, a simple Change as Most Clan OP Comments Come from Laser Vomit,
take all Clan Lasers, -1Damage, -1Heat, & Adjust Durations there now its abit more Balanced,

I wouldn't even be mad, honestly, if, if it also came with 1 less heat and a shorter burn duration, because at that point it would be doing all of 1 more damage than IS Mediums with slightly more range, but more heat AND longer duration.

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 December 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Totally agree, a simple Change as Most Clan OP Comments Come from Laser Vomit,
take all Clan Lasers, -1Damage, -1Heat, & Adjust Durations there now its abit more Balanced,

Naw sorry can't agree to the heat. Because despite the heat, C-laservomit is still very much a thing.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

Naw sorry can't agree to the heat. Because despite the heat, C-laservomit is still very much a thing.

But the Alpha would be reduced an so we could start getting back to where we should be,

Andi Nagasia, on 17 December 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Sadly in the Initial Clan Talks it was Decided
the Canon C-ER-ML Stats of (7Damage for 5 Heat),
would become (7Damage for 6Heat) as apposed to IS-ML (5Damage for 4Heat),
they should have just gone with (6Damage for 5Heat) and weapons would be more balanced,

[LordNothing]

i dont care about endo but unlock all locked sinks on mechs that have more than 10 sinks. the nova is permalocked to laser vomit because it cant carry ammo and guns simultaneously. a lot of other clan mechs get bad raps because they are being played wrong. like gargoyles and adders are beasts of prey in cw.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 December 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[Wintersdark]

LordNothing, on 18 December 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

i dont care about endo but unlock all locked sinks on mechs that have more than 10 sinks. the nova is permalocked to laser vomit because it cant carry ammo and guns simultaneously. a lot of other clan mechs get bad raps because they are being played wrong. like gargoyles and adders are beasts of prey in cw.

what? That doesn't make sense
Locked DHS don't stop ballistics on the nova, lack of tonnage does. Ammo can go in the arms or wherever. But no ES or FF, locked JJ's, the Nova loses nearly 8 tons vs a customizable 50 tonner.