653 replies to this topic

[wolf74]

Personally, I think Endo-Steel should have never been a Upgrade option on a mechs due to the fact it the Dam core Frame of the mech.

It like taking a Ford F150 Steel frame and putting in the F150 ford aluminum frame. Is it still the same Truck? Is it Even Cost effective to Do so? Answer No on both.

I don't mind Ferro Armor being an Upgrade Option Due to the fact it the outerLay of the mech, Aka ok you have a hole in the Front right panel of your car you can get it replace without great effort or high cost.

[Navid A1]

Remember how hard PGI resisted unlocking that puny flamer on the adder?

Now think about how close our suggestions are to becoming reality.

Edited by Navid A1, 24 July 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[Baulven]

wolf74, on 24 July 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

Personally, I think Endo-Steel should have never been a Upgrade option on a mechs due to the fact it the Dam core Frame of the mech.

It like taking a Ford F150 Steel frame and putting in the F150 ford aluminum frame. Is it still the same Truck? Is it Even Cost effective to Do so? Answer No on both.

I don't mind Ferro Armor being an Upgrade Option Due to the fact it the outerLay of the mech, Aka ok you have a hole in the Front right panel of your car you can get it replace without great effort or high cost.

This is battletech. If they wanted cost effective they would have stuck to tanks and planes.

[RestosIII]

Baulven, on 24 July 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

This is battletech. If they wanted cost effective they would have stuck to tanks and planes.

If they wanted cost effective they wouldn't have built the Shadow Cat II.

[Andi Nagasia]

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

Allowing Omnis to pick and choose their upgrades and whether they may remove JJ's (which is another thing entirely) is a bad idea.

First off All OmniMechs could Equip and Unequip JumpJets, as per Lore and OmniMech Construction Rules,
so theirs that(but as you Said thats another Topic All together), but back to the Topic at hand,

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

To say that buffing the weaker Omnis doesn't impact anything is short sighted.
Basically your argument is predicated on every Clans man piloting a Timberwolf or Stormcrow and no other mechs.
This is not true.

making any Mech thats weak stronger doesnt Throw Balance of the Game off,
let me ask you, do you think that all Mech should be Viable?(That is Weak BroughtUp & Strong BroughtDown?)
if Yes- then i think you understand why its important to Buff all Weak Mechs, Even Weak OmniMechs,
If No- then i think we are done here, and i dont think you fully know what a balance is,

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

The bread and butter of MWO is Pug matches.
Do you see nothing but Stormcrows and Timby's being piloted by players? No, you do not. you see a wide variety including lesser mechs like the Summoner.
People buy them for whatever reason, they look cool, they are new and naive, they are filling out their collection, they are deep into lore.

Pug Que is important, but think on this, a mech good in Comp Play will be Good in Pug Play,
a Mech with Good HardPoints wont suddenly have Less HardPoints because your in Pug Que,
a Mech with Strong HitBoxes wont be any weaker because you are playing in Pug Que,
but a Mech with Weak HitBoxes or HardPoints, will still be Weak, in Comp Play or Pug,

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

Not everyone pilots top tier stuff. If you were to buff them to top tier levels all Clan gear in matches would be top tier. This would make a huge difference in all types of game play. Everyone would switch to the Omnis' for just this advantage. It is a feature of Omni's that they may not change internal structure yet the argument up and down this thread is that they should be allowed to, because it would make them more fashionable.
Fashionable...

Currently BattleMechs have More Advantages than OmniMechs, just look at the DWF vs the KDK,
Changing HardPoints isnt that much Benefit unless your Mech in Lore have a Variety of Roles(SCR/TBR),
also BattleMechs can change Anything(Full TT Mech Factory), and HardPoint Inflation(often +2 HardPoints),
where as a OmniMech, are over Locked, & only Use Half their TT Construction Rules(more is Locked in MWO),

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

Why not allow Clan omni's to change out their engine size while were at it? IS mechs to use Clan Xl engines?
It is the same argument as letting Omni's play with their inner structure. If you want to change your internal structure run IS mechs. If Clan engine size is your thing run IIC models. If altering your weapons type and config (and to a lesser extent JJ) play omni's.

this isnt very Constructive, as saying dont Unlock anything because more things may Follow,
some times Changes to a System must be made to Balance such a System, some Change can be Good,

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

If all that is really cared about is a favorite Summoner don't disguise it as a "Solution" to under-powered mechs.
Clearly it is not one.
If you must, buff the darn Summoner. Don't break the game doing it.

its known that OminMechs are Very Feast or Famine, you Ether Have it or you dont,
for BattleMechs, any Mech can Run a Big/Small Engine, Endo, Ferro, more/Less JJ,
and on top of all of that most if not all BattleMechs Get HardPoint Inflation,
its Easier for an BattleMech to be Viable than an OmniMech,

[Baulven]

I have a serious question. Are any of the top clan omnis not endo/FF setups?

[Metus regem]

Baulven, on 24 July 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

I have a serious question. Are any of the top clan omnis not endo/FF setups?

Dire Wolf, but it would be slot limited if it did....

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Andi Nagasia, on 24 July 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Pug Que is important, but think on this, a mech good in Comp Play will be Good in Pug Play,
a Mech with Good HardPoints wont suddenly have Less HardPoints because your in Pug Que,
a Mech with Strong HitBoxes wont be any weaker because you are playing in Pug Que,
but a Mech with Weak HitBoxes or HardPoints, will still be Weak, in Comp Play or Pug,

This is key, PUG Queue is one thing, but, if all things in the competitive scene are seen as useful and worth while it means they are all balanced. How we get to that point is a matter of opinion. I would personally love to buff weaker mechs and tweak the strongest to slightly change how they play, but, not nerf them. Like we had some very broken builds and those when the crop up NEED to be nerfed like UAC10 build on the KDK-3 that was bad for the health of the game. But, yes, we need to use the competitive seen as a benchmark and the devs need to use the data from there and poll the competitive teams on what is wrong with each mech. Data + opinions of the people who best know how to make use of the game mechanics. The competitive scene isn't a bunch of seal clubbers, they are people who want things to be balanced, if they were seal clubbers they wouldn't be fighting other people who are equally if not better than them. PUG Queue has too many variables going one all at once to balance against, if you tried to you would get something I shudder to conceptualize in my mind.

[Wintersdark]

Baulven, on 24 July 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

I have a serious question. Are any of the top clan omnis not endo/FF setups?

It's a huge tonnage savings for free.

From an IS perspective consider: how many IS builds do t have endosteel. Clan ES+FF together has the same slot cost as IS Endosteel, but rewards more tons than IS Endosteel+FF.

So, there ARE a couple builds that won't use both, but very few. At 100t, you start needing slots more than tons, but only for some builds.

And this is the thing. "Customization" in this case isn't, really. It's not like locked engines.

Clan locked engines: these serve to force Clan mechs into a particular role by mandating speed:pod space. This is good limited customization because the mechs aren't nerfed by it - if the mech has less tonnage, it has more speed.

Endo/FF... They're not like that. Oh, sure, on paper there is a slot cost, but that slot cost is literally irrelevant due to how builds work. You can't use those slots without the tonnage except in very edge cases.

So, the end result is that unlike engines, the lack of ES/FF mods don't force mechs to specialize, it just serves to flat out nerf some mechs essentially randomly.

So, locked engines bring something to gameplay. They're good! Locked ES/FF just arbitrarily breaks some mechs. Not good.

What's more, it's harder to balance the Clan weapons, too.

Take the Gauss Rifle. The clan version is lighter and smaller, making it objectively better, right? Except when you put it on a summoner. As the summoner has less tonnage available than an IS mech with the same JJ/Engine config. Now the Gauss Rifle isn't objectively better in practice anymore.

Now, let's not pick at the analogy, as it's just an example to show the point.

When a random selection of mechs have arbitrarily less tonnage available(with no advantage as a result), it's a lot harder to consider weapon weight in balancing overall.

And we want both sides to be balanced, internally and externally. We want the smallest Delta between the T1 and T5 mechs ON BOTH SIDES as possible.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Long story short, there's really no good argument against giving underperforming Omnimechs ES. Since this change can really only benefit the game, PGI should just do it... now!!!

[Baulven]

Wintersdark, on 24 July 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

It's a huge tonnage savings for free.

From an IS perspective consider: how many IS builds do t have endosteel. Clan ES+FF together has the same slot cost as IS Endosteel, but rewards more tons than IS Endosteel+FF.

So, there ARE a couple builds that won't use both, but very few. At 100t, you start needing slots more than tons, but only for some builds.

And this is the thing. "Customization" in this case isn't, really. It's not like locked engines.

Clan locked engines: these serve to force Clan mechs into a particular role by mandating speed:pod space. This is good limited customization because the mechs aren't nerfed by it - if the mech has less tonnage, it has more speed.

Endo/FF... They're not like that. Oh, sure, on paper there is a slot cost, but that slot cost is literally irrelevant due to how builds work. You can't use those slots without the tonnage except in very edge cases.

So, the end result is that unlike engines, the lack of ES/FF mods don't force mechs to specialize, it just serves to flat out nerf some mechs essentially randomly.

So, locked engines bring something to gameplay. They're good! Locked ES/FF just arbitrarily breaks some mechs. Not good.

What's more, it's harder to balance the Clan weapons, too.

Take the Gauss Rifle. The clan version is lighter and smaller, making it objectively better, right? Except when you put it on a summoner. As the summoner has less tonnage available than an IS mech with the same JJ/Engine config. Now the Gauss Rifle isn't objectively better in practice anymore.

Now, let's not pick at the analogy, as it's just an example to show the point.

When a random selection of mechs have arbitrarily less tonnage available(with no advantage as a result), it's a lot harder to consider weapon weight in balancing overall.

And we want both sides to be balanced, internally and externally. We want the smallest Delta between the T1 and T5 mechs ON BOTH SIDES as possible.

It was more a supposition than any sort of argument. I am also well versed in the rules for both TT and this game since I go out of my way to learn theory before practical (it helps for me) but I meant that more as a "Do any clan mechs really shine without the ES/FF option or are all the ones that clans use mandate both. I know ACH, EBJ, TBR, SCR are all ES/FF now that I have the game in front of me, but I just find it interesting that the less viable mechs on the clan side lack the upgrades.

Also the major saver is ES, since it saves half of the structure divided by 10. Granted at super light weight FF and ES can almost be interchangeable, but those classes don't normally benefit much from it.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

View PostGorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

Not everyone pilots top tier stuff. If you were to buff them to top tier levels all Clan gear in matches would be top tier. This would make a huge difference in all types of game play. Everyone would switch to the Omnis' for just this advantage. It is a feature of Omni's that they may not change internal structure yet the argument up and down this thread is that they should be allowed to, because it would make them more fashionable.
Fashionable...

Enabling someone to equip Endo on their omni would do two things, take up 7 slots and free up some tonnage.

Standard Internal Structure is 10% of a mech's tonnage.
Endo Steel is 5% of a mech's tonnage.

100t - 5t freed up - Direwolf but since it has a locked engine so it can not go faster, most builds actually need the slots.
95t - 4.75t - Executioner***?
90t - 4.5t -
85t - 4.25t - Warhawk***??
80t - 4.0t - Gargoyle***??
70t - 3.5t - Summoner!!!
65t - 3.25t - Hellbringer!!!
60t - 3.0t - Maddog***??
50t - 2.5t - Nova ***??
40t - 2.0t
30t - 1.5t
20t - 1.0t

Of the Omni without Endo, two would slightly benefit while the others would be a hit/miss. Those who pilot the others more often can comment on it. Was is a few tons? A few more heatsinks, ammo, an UAC10 instead of an UAC5 (singular). The humanoid mechs do suffer the same thing as IS humanoid mechs, low hanging arm mounted weapons that can be brought up. Even with a few more tons they have to expose themselves as much as their IS opponents in humanoid mechs.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 24 July 2016 - 08:18 PM.

[RestosIII]

Tarl Cabot, on 24 July 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

Enabling someone to equip Endo on their omni would do two things, take up 7 slots and free up some tonnage.

Standard Internal Structure is 10% of a mech's tonnage.
Endo Steel is 5% of a mech's tonnage.

100t - 5t freed up - Direwolf but since it has a locked engine so it can not go faster, most builds actually need the slots.
95t - 4.75t - Executioner***?
90t - 4.5t -
85t - 4.25t - Warhawk***??
80t - 4.0t - Gargoyle***??
70t - 3.5t - Summoner!!!
65t - 3.25t - Hellbringer!!!
60t - 3.0t - Maddog***??
50t - 2.5t - Nova ***??
40t - 2.0t
30t - 1.5t
20t - 1.0t

Of the Omni without Endo, two would slightly benefit while the others would be a hit/miss. Those who pilot the others more often can comment on it. Was is a few tons? A few more heatsinks, ammo, an UAC10 instead of an UAC5 (singular). The humanoid mechs do suffer the same thing as IS humanoid mechs, low hanging arm mounted weapons that can be brought up. Even with a few more tons they have to expose themselves as much as their IS opponents in humanoid mechs.

I pilot the Warhawk a decent amount, and it wouldn't help it for me since it already runs low on slots. The Mad Dog on the other hand... You could make a Mad Dog Prime loadout with proper ammo, armor, or heatsinks! More ammo for duel guass! All good things.

[Bishop Steiner]

time to breath some life into this, like a nightmare Russ can't escape.....

Thanks for the Loyalty SMNs, boss. Not that I qualified. Apparently, buying the full on KDK pack, and well basic packs and some heroes on every chassis up til the lousy Linebacker, and $1.50, can buy ya a cup of coffee. (yeah, I didn't buy top tier Origins or Wave III. Perhaps if the top tier mechs in those packs hadn't sucked ***, I might have).

So yeah, whatever. F & M models do open up...well, 2 build possibilities? PPC Nippletart, or generic mediocre laservomit.

And for those of us not wanting to be railroaded into certain builds.... not a whole hell of a lot more. Not to mention the other 6-8 Omnis still sucking farts because of locked Endo.

So yeah. Here's your quarterly reminder...... LET MY PEOPLE GO!