69 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

ok we all know Clan has 2 Go to OmniMechs,
the Fast StormCrow & the Powerful TimberWolf,

but most other Clan OmniMechs wait in the shadows,
so i had an Idea and a Solution that could Some of help them,
at least those with Locked JJ and Non-HS/DHS Equipment,


Allow OmniMechs to Remove All Locked Equipment, other than DHS,
before Everyone Quickly scrolls down and posts how this till Ruin MWO,
just let me explain what it would give and how i feel it will be balanced,

First off i personally feel that IS vs Clan are mostly balanced,
based on how the ive seen heavy hitters on both sides play,
could it be more balanced of course but its good right now,

Now for all that say that unlocking these would go against lore,
All Omni-Mechs could equip any Weapon-System, ECM, or JumpJets,
but because this would cause Balance problems MWO/PGI cannot allow this,
as all Clan mechs would mount them and IS vs Clan balance would be broken,


=Now onto the Change=
This Only Changes OmniMechs that come with JJ as Standard Equipment,
so JumpJets on the MLX, ACH, SHC, NVA, SMN and EXE would be Unlocked,
as well as any locked non-HS/DHS Equipment, ADR/FLamer & MLX/CAP,
-
JumpJets on Modified Variants of Omni-Mechs would still have them Locked,
so JumpJets on the KFX-S, the TBR-S, and the DWF-S would remain locked,
MASC would also remain Locked as Combat Data on that is still unknown,
-
(Omni-Mech JumpJet Constraints on Modification)
"Omni-Mechs Designed around JumpJets such as the Nova or Summoner,
can have them removed as they can be unbolted from the Omni-mechs Chassis,
however Omni-mechs who have JumpJets added onto only certain Variants cannot,
as these Omni-mechs Such as the TBR-S/DWF-S have them Welded to their Chassis,"
--StarAdder Master Engineer Andi Nagasia to: StarAdder Engineer in Training--,


=The OmniMechs & The Builds that Would Benefit=
lets look at what Mechs would directly benefit from this, mostly Lights and JumpJet mechs,
remember unlocking equipment doesnt include locked DHS, as i feel they are a Balance factor,
-
=MistLynx=
with JJEquipped,.......6.5FreeTons,
without JJEquipped...10.5FreeTons,
as it would unlock the fixed JumpJets as well as the CAP,
this would free up 4tons, which may not seem like too much,
but as it would help on some ammo intensive MistLynx builds,
or for better weapons, every little bit of free tonnage helps,
=the Builds the MLX could now run=
1ER-LL & 3SRM(16shots),(no-JJ/CAP)
1ER-LL & 2SRM(29shots) & ECM,(no-JJ/CAP)
2ER-LL & ECM, +2DHS,(no-JJ/CAP)
1LPL & 1ER-ML & ECM, +3DHS,(no-JJ/CAP)
1AC5(any)(105shots) & ECM,(no-JJ/CAP)
and many more combinations
-
=Arctic Cheetah=
with JJ Equipped,........7.5FreeTons,
without JJ Equipped,...11.5FreeTons,
(Data Yet to be Known),
-
=Adder=(PGI has Removed Flamer)
with Flamer Equipped,........16FreeTons,
without Flamer Equipped,...16.5FreeTons,
as it would unlock the Flamer to let other energy weapons,
in this case 1ER-SL/ML/LL this would also help with some builds,
the 4SRM6 1ER-LL build / as well as the 5MPL 18DHS build,
this could help the Adder with having more options,
=the Builds the ADR could now run=
3ER-LL & +2MPL,(no-Flamer)
5MPL & +6DHS,(no-Flamer)
2LPL & 3ER-ML & CAP,(no-Flamer)
1ER-LL & 4SRM6(27shots),(no-Flamer)
3ER-ML & 2LRM15(39shots),(no-Flamer)
and many more combinations
-
=ShadowCat=
with JJ Equipped,........17FreeTons,
without JJ Equipped,...20FreeTons,
(Data Yet to be Known),
-
=Nova=
with JJ Equipped,........7.5FreeTons,
without JJ Equipped,...11.5FreeTons,
as it would unlock the fixed JumpJets on all Novas,
this would free up 2.5tons, which may not seem like much,
but would help on some AC Ballistic builds if you need ammo,
or for more 2DHS, every bit of free Heat Displacement helps,
again having a choice to use less than 5 is good,
=the Builds the NVA could now run=
2AC2(any)(187shots) & 13ER-SL,(no-JJ)
4ER-LL & 4MG(3000Ammo),(no-JJ)
12ER-ML & +6DHS,(no-JJ)
6MPL & 6SPL,(no-JJ)
-
=Summoner=
with JJ Equipped,........22.5FreeTons,
without JJ Equipped,...27.5FreeTons,
as it would unlock the fixed JumpJets on all Summoners,
this would free up 5 tons, which for the Summoner is great,
but would help on some ammo intensive Summoner builds,
or for Ammo, DHS, or better weapons for the Summoner,
again having a choice to use less than 5 would be good,
=the Builds the SMN could now run=
2LPL & 2ER-ML & 1Guass(15shots),(no-JJ)
5SRM6(16Shots) & 1Guass(30shots),(no-JJ)
2Guass(17shots),(no-JJ)(high mounted!)
and many more combinations
-
=Executioner=
with JJ Equipped,........26.5FreeTons,
without JJ Equipped,...34.5FreeTons,
(Working on this Section),
-
i feel these changes would help some OmniMechs,
with out buffing those some may not want buffed,


=Benefiting Omni-mech Templates=
Assume No JJ(or Cap/MLX or Flamer/ADR)
Blank MLX-Template(11Free-Tons)
Blank ADR-Template(16.5Free-Tons)
Blank NVA-Template(18.5Free-Tons)
Blank SMN-Template(27.5Free-Tons)
Blank EXE-Template(34.5Free-Tons)


=Yet to be Released OmniMechs=
This Covers some IS-OmniMechs, this Unlocking will also help,
Owens(35Ton(3056)(10.5FreeTons)(280XL(129kph)
=Removal of Locked BAP, C3, Tag on the Owens(+3.5Ton),
Strider(40Ton(3057)(14FreeTons)(240STD(97kph)
=Removal of Locked 2Case on the Strider(+2Ton),
Avatar(70Ton(3056)(37FreeTons)(280XL(64kph)
=Removal of Locked 2ML & 2Case on the Avatar(+4Ton),
-
=Other IS-OmniMechs=
Raptor(25Ton(3052)(11.5FreeTons)(175XL(118kph),
BlackHawk-KU(60Ton(3055)(17FreeTons)(300XL(86kph),

Sunder(90Ton(3056)(36FreeTons)(360XL(64kph),


i know many people will have mixed feelings about this,
so i would ask that Russ make these changes on the Test Servers,
and have them active for a week so we can all see how they would help,
-
this would allow players to try out these changes,
if they turn out to be good then they can be implemented,
if not then there is no harm done in the testing,


for those who are asking to allow Omni-Mechs to Upgrade to Endo,
i cant Fully Agree, though i do think it would help, and i do understand your feelings,
i feel this goes against Spirit of what makes a Omni-Mech an Omni-Mech,
-
if this upgrade is required to make the mech competitive then its not a choice,
you are Forced then to upgrade your Omni-mech or your just handicapping your self,
i feel unlocking locked Equipment is a better option as it allows for a more balanced choice,
to keep JumpJets or give them up for more Tonnage, both options have advantages
-
For that Topic, Please see Bishop Steiner's Topic on Endo for All OmniMechs,
(Pgi, Please Consider "free Endo 4 The Poor" And Underprivileged Omnimechs?)



=Russ Awail ago on Removing Omnis Fixed JumpJets=

Russ Bullock, on 20 September 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

I was pushing to do this a while ago but the plan was to first make all our JJ changes. Well now we have and although it has helped reduce the power of the 1 JJ timber wolf and other 1 JJ mechs.

I still this is a valid point that I will need to bring up again.

i know not everyone will agree with me here,
and if you dont agree please post your feelings,
please be constructive so a solution can be found,
and we can all work on this together as a community,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks


Edit- Spelling
Edit2- Endo/Ferro feelings
Edit3- Benefit list, reworked,
Edit4- A message from the Bishop,
Edit5- Slight Rework and reword,
Edit6- Short Story & Templates added
Edit7- Full Rework reworking,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 July 2015 - 12:21 PM.

[Pika]

I'm sorry, I need to say the way you've structured this post makes me read it like a poem\lyrics. I found it very distracting to get your point.

I think some Clan 'Mechs could certainly use this, as ironically omnipods seem more limiting than the IS 'Mechs, but I don't know. I think we should wait until Clans get quirks?

[Lily from animove]

Pika, on 08 January 2015 - 08:19 PM, said:

I'm sorry, I need to say the way you've structured this post makes me read it like a poem\lyrics. I found it very distracting to get your point.

I think some Clan 'Mechs could certainly use this, as ironically omnipods seem more limiting than the IS 'Mechs, but I don't know. I think we should wait until Clans get quirks?

quirks have issues because you need to quirk the omnipods againts each other and they will often be only for specific weapons which somehoe counteracts the omnipod idea. generally allwoing more customisation is good, then quirk the true bad mechs of the clans with some slight quirks and this would be a fine thing.

[kapusta11]

I support this, release the lock on ALL fixed equipment/engines/upgrades. Balance clan TECH not the mechs.

Edited by kapusta11, 09 January 2015 - 02:38 AM.

[August55]

Pika, on 08 January 2015 - 08:19 PM, said:

I'm sorry, I need to say the way you've structured this post makes me read it like a poem\lyrics. I found it very distracting to get your point.

Perhaps someone should act it out on stage. Would that help?

[Andi Nagasia]

sorry if my Sentences seem Lyrical,
i feel this change will mostly boost Clan light game,
as well as all Clans with Fixed JumpJet,

[Bobzilla]

Quirks are what they use.
They won't change fixed equipment.
Quirks that free up tons?

[Ace Selin]

No to what OP said.

Quirk the body of the mech in question (not the Omni pods).

Edited by Ace Selin, 09 January 2015 - 05:52 PM.

[Serpieri]

Just wait for the second line clan mechs - than you don't have to worry about PGI's omni system.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Inner Sphere mechs are more omni than clans right now which is just sad.

I get it, there are other repercussions to having truly omni clan mechs; you'd only need one chassis to load out however you'd want, buying excess chassis would be necessary only to "level" the mechs up .... unless you reworked the experience/leveling system differently for clan mechs.

But as it stands right now, they are extremely limited in their build options and altogether a far cry from what they were supposed to be.

Can we admit that the quest for balance between mechs that were supposed to be incredibly unbalanced (IS vs Clan) was a foolish endeavor? Given how CW is setup right now, can we just make it so clanners drop with less mechs? That was how the fights were conducted anyway. The Inner Sphere had drastic numerical superiority while the Clan had a large technical superiority that will be balanced when the tech starts getting spread and shared.

Wasn't that the point of a timeline anyway? IS gets their faces shot off right now so we can mount clan tech to our mechs down the road?

Edited by cRaZy8or5e, 09 January 2015 - 06:19 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

With The swappable pods, no. Endo and Armor, I am all for, but the engines and DHS and stock crits are locked for good reason.

Because of the pod interchangeability, if one could swap the core, one would have to nerf the actual clan weaponry to laughably bad. Not only is that counterintuitive, but unnecessary.

Leave the engines and base DHS/crits locked, allow endo to help equalize the bad clan mechs to the good, and fero, if more is needed. That gives a solid baseline for adjusting clan tech across the board, and thus balancing between it and IS tech, too.

[Kuritaclan]

cRaZy8or5e, on 09 January 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Can we admit that the quest for balance between mechs that were supposed to be incredibly unbalanced (IS vs Clan) was a foolish endeavor? Given how CW is setup right now, can we just make it so clanners drop with less mechs? That was how the fights were conducted anyway. The Inner Sphere had drastic numerical superiority while the Clan had a large technical superiority that will be balanced when the tech starts getting spread and shared.

Wasn't that the point of a timeline anyway? IS gets their faces shot off right now so we can mount clan tech to our mechs down the road?

We could admit that. But since you don't look forward this idea of less players on one side has a big flaw - when second line Mechs of IS hit Clans they have technically the same advantages clans have. So we need queues with same player count on both sides. And than the problem is back into game, since nobody could use the "old is" mechs, because they would bring a massiv disadvantage into the queue and you need to balance them anyhow as clanmechs and is mechs have same numbers in drops. - So in the end the ideo of lesser mechs for clan will only delay the problem to a later period.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 January 2015 - 06:27 PM.

[MechB Kotare]

cRaZy8or5e, on 09 January 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Can we admit that the quest for balance between mechs that were supposed to be incredibly unbalanced (IS vs Clan) was a foolish endeavor? Given how CW is setup right now, can we just make it so clanners drop with less mechs? That was how the fights were conducted anyway. The Inner Sphere had drastic numerical superiority while the Clan had a large technical superiority that will be balanced when the tech starts getting spread and shared.

They will never go for 10v12, because they would admit that Clan Mechs are better. I think it was mister Bullock who said, that in a f2p concept favoring one group over another is not an option.

Neither do i want it. People would loose motivation to play IS tech.

[Bobzilla]

New pods for under performing mechs could work too.

[Andi Nagasia]

i understand some people may prefer to just unlock Endo and Farro,
but i feel this goes against the locked internals of Omni-construcion rules,
Unlocking Non-DHS equipment isnt against Omni-construcion rules,

it would also be easier and more balanced to do this,
as if Endo and Farro were offered most people would just upgrade,
never looking back, as it doesnt have much of a drawback,

[Bellum Dominum]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 January 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

i understand some people may prefer to just unlock Endo and Farro,
but i feel this goes against the locked internals of Omni-construcion rules,
Unlocking Non-DHS equipment isnt against Omni-construcion rules,

it would also be easier and more balanced to do this,
as if Endo and Farro were offered most people would just upgrade,
never looking back, as it doesnt have much of a drawback,

They are talking about unlocking ferro and endo from the mechs. Clan mechs already have either or both but it can't be removed from the mech if you don't want it.

[Andi Nagasia]

Death Drow, on 09 January 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

They are talking about unlocking ferro and endo from the mechs. Clan mechs already have either or both but it can't be removed from the mech if you don't want it.

just worried about it being an upgrade tax,(i know its not really a tax but you know what i mean)
also the adder being able to run a laser in the flamer slot i feel would help it allot,
as well as give JJ mechs more tonnage rather than just upgrade,

[Kuritaclan]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 January 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

i understand some people may prefer to just unlock Endo and Farro,
but i feel this goes against the locked internals of Omni-construcion rules,
Unlocking Non-DHS equipment isnt against Omni-construcion rules,

it would also be easier and more balanced to do this,
as if Endo and Farro were offered most people would just upgrade,
never looking back, as it doesnt have much of a drawback,

Well that is pretty much the intention of a superior technology. As long as it is powerfull, which is alos true for is, it would be used. There are some mechs which don't need it or do not go for it because they fit in other things and have not enough critical slots but this builds and mechs are rare.

"but i feel this goes against the locked internals of Omni-construcion rules," - Humm if rules stop balance those rules arn't usfull i guess as first shot. This is like saying states never should have abandon slavery, because every community law before has the rule "slavery is god given" fixed. Well nto the best analogy, but it gets the point.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 January 2015 - 08:03 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Kuritaclan, on 09 January 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

Well that is pretty much the intention of a superior technology. As long as it is powerfull, which is alos true for is, it would be used. There are some mechs which don't need it or do not go for it because they fit in other things and have not enough critical slots but this builds and mechs are rare.

"but i feel this goes against the locked internals of Omni-construcion rules," - Humm if rules stop balance those rules arn't usfull i guess as first shot. This is like saying states never should have abandon slavery, because every community law before has the rule "slavery is god given" fixed. Well nto the best analogy, but it gets the point.

perhaps,
but if the ability for Omni-mechs can upgrade is added,
and this upgrade is required to make the mech competitive then its not a choice,
you are Forced then to upgrade your Omni-mech or your just handicapping your self,
i feel unlocking this equipment is more the Spirit of what makes a Omni-Mech an Omni-Mech,
locked internals(Engine, Structure, Armor) but other wise free customizability,
its not about the rules its about what i feel is more like an Omni-Mech,

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 09 January 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[Lightfoot]

@OP.

Certainly Jump Jets should be removable because all it does is skew balance to affect only a few mechs. Also, MWO's jump jets have been too nerfed because of 3PV balancing. They are capped at such a very low jump height to block pop-tarting, that they no longer work as a high agility option. No one should be forced to equip them at this point.

Armor, Internals, minimum heatsinks seem to be part of the balancing of the Clan mechs, but it also skews balance to the mechs that have both Endo and FF unless the mech is given alot of hardpoints. One reason why the Summoner is total garbage because it happens to get hit by all the Clan Mechlab nerfs. Low number of hardpoints, 5 tons of jump-jets, no Endo Steel. That's not balance, it's imbalance.