93 replies to this topic

[Atlasian]

I have been shot with many PPCs.
I have shot with PPCs.
I think they are ok.

[Zoid]

Oh hell no. If anything, PPCs are underpowered. You have to give them to a 'mech with 50% bonuses to make them strong enough to be feared, they most certainly do not need to be nerfed.

[LordKnightFandragon]

PPC: Pitifully Pathetic Crap

PPCs are not OP, TDR9s are OP....with their ability to endless chain fire them for half the heat and half faster then every other PPC based mech.

Take the 9s, take its 50% Heat reduction, make that to the point where its getting 12 heat for its ERPPCs and then come back and say ERPPCs are still OP.

[uebersoldat]

Nope. No they don't.

Brody319, on 10 January 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Don't you dare take my ERPPC AWesome 9M away from me

^^^ I stand with this true gentleman!

rocked that sucker last night, hotter than HELL but still managed to stay alive and rake in a kill or two.

[uebersoldat]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 January 2015 - 02:11 AM, said:

They need a buff to velocity, but won't get it.

The PPC and ERPPC has seen a lot of buffs and nerfs. PGI can never find a good middle ground for the weapon. The reduced heat before and they were boated, they increased velocity, and Heavies and Assaults were using them for high alpha strikes. In between the buffs, the needs made them terribly ineffective.

Now we have ineffective PPCs and ERPPCs unless the mech has a velocity quirk. I think it is the best middleground we will see for a while. Its a shame, but the reality of the situation.

No, PPC needs severe 'mech systems disruption. Radar, HUD and vision should go ape for a second or two on being hit. I'm not sure why they haven't done this. It's like they don't understand the nature of the weapon at all. It's not a laser bullet. It's LIGHTNING.

[Variant1]

To all you hater whiners complaining about OP and that ppcs are "weak", yall need to get gud m8 and learn to play. This is my second most hated weapon.

I have used ppcs and can say the reason for its unappealing attributes is because it has a high skill curve and projectile speed, overall once you get used to its projectile speed or more importantly using other than just long range sniping it can be a very good weapon hence its use since alpha and reason for nerfing it.

I think they should nerf its projectile speed by a very small amount and remove all ppc quirks. This weapon is for skilled people not noobs. Either pick something else or get gud #stopgetinrekt.

I have used a k2 with ppc and felt like a long range ac20, but i switched to 2 large lasers since it wasn't my style.

The ghost heat i think is a little bit too much for ppc and think a better way of stoping spam would be instead to use heat build up, 3 second cooldown should also have a 3 second heat build up.

To all ya nubs that don't think i know what i am talkin aboot let me give you the run down of its stats: Its heat is negligible since i have used an ac20 so its not very hot as some people claim it to be, not to mention its projectile speed as well. Now lets compare it to the ac10 its balistic counter part (if i can give it that much credit), it has more range than said weapon and is not troubled by ammo since it is infinite.

TL DR:the only unappealing thing about ppc is its projectile speed and high skill curve, those that say its weapon ppc is weak need to get gud and L2p, now stop whining, the only thing i dont like about it is ghost heat which should be replaced with a heat build up mechanic instead.

quick edit: come at me haters.
quick edit2:unerlined

Edited by Variant1, 28 January 2015 - 07:57 AM.

[occusoj]

Variant1, on 28 January 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

using other than just long range sniping it can be a very good weapon hence its use since alpha and reason for nerfing it.

A PPC without massive heat quirks is a terrible close range weapon. Not just because it deals a solid 0 damage once your opponent gets closer than 90m but mostly because it has too low DPS for too much heat and weight.
The ER version is even worse in terms of heat.

Variant1, on 28 January 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

To all ya nubs that don't think i know what i am talkin aboot let me give you the run down of its stats: Its heat is negligible since i have used an ac20 so its not very hot as some people claim it to be

It yields 10 damage for 10 heat. Which already is a huge lot worse than the LPL which gives 11 damage for 7 heat and quicker CD.
Its one damage per heat and besides the ERPPC the worst weapon I can think of. Well, except for the flamer but we all know at what level of usefullness it currently resides.

Variant1, on 28 January 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

I have used a k2 with ppc and felt like a long range ac20, but i switched to 2 large lasers since it wasn't my style.

I run both variants.
2xERPPC/gauss and 2xERLL/2xUAC5.
Both arent viable at all tbh. I like Catapults, thats the only reason I still play them.
The ERPPC one is a fragile longrange AC20 with enormous heat and low sustained dps. It will loose a close encounter with enemy mechs and shouldnt try to face off against better quirked ERPPC builds or cerll boats.

I played against both builds in my Wub-Banshee and it usually kills them in one or two volleys. Which makes that an instagib or a TTK of 3.5 seconds.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Variant1, on 28 January 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

To all you hater whiners complaining about OP and that ppcs are "weak", yall need to get gud m8 and learn to play. This is my second most hated weapon.

I have used ppcs and can say the reason for its unappealing attributes is because it has a high skill curve and projectile speed, overall once you get used to its projectile speed or more importantly using other than just long range sniping it can be a very good weapon hence its use since alpha and reason for nerfing it.

I think they should nerf its projectile speed by a very small amount and remove all ppc quirks. This weapon is for skilled people not noobs. Either pick something else or get gud #stopgetinrekt.

I have used a k2 with ppc and felt like a long range ac20, but i switched to 2 large lasers since it wasn't my style.

The ghost heat i think is a little bit too much for ppc and think a better way of stoping spam would be instead to use heat build up, 3 second cooldown should also have a 3 second heat build up.

To all ya nubs that don't think i know what i am talkin aboot let me give you the run down of its stats: Its heat is negligible since i have used an ac20 so its not very hot as some people claim it to be, not to mention its projectile speed as well. Now lets compare it to the ac10 its balistic counter part (if i can give it that much credit), it has more range than said weapon and is not troubled by ammo since it is infinite.

TL DR:the only unappealing thing about ppc is its projectile speed and high skill curve, those that say its weapon ppc is weak need to get gud and L2p, now stop whining, the only thing i dont like about it is ghost heat which should be replaced with a heat build up mechanic instead.

quick edit: come at me haters.
quick edit2:unerlined

Yeah, some of the heat quirks could go, in trade for a lower max heat lvl for the ERPPCs....

maybe 100-200ms more velocity would be good. CERPPC being a 15/15 or a 13/1/1-15 and a 4.5-5s cd would be grand.

And a shrinking of the projectile hit box. It seems to collide with a heap of stuff, making snap shooting it and shooting from cover rather tricky. The number of shots fired from behind cover, or from a moderately concealed position, that ive fired into terrain..way to many....id have atleast 2000 more damage with ERPPC if it wasnt for that.....id have about maybe 8 more kills if it wasnt for the amazingly lame damage/heat on these ERPPCs.....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 28 January 2015 - 08:29 AM.

[Lightfoot]

PPCs and ERPPCs need a buff. The non-quirked travel times are too slow for them to be called long range weapons. They are too hot and the PPC has a minimum range. No other weapon is as burdened with nerfs as the PPC/ERPPC. I have no problems with them and I rarely use them since Lasers are so much better.

The only thing weird is why a 65 ton mech, the TDR-9S, got the ERPPC buffs that the AWS-9M, 80 tons, should have been given. I think PGI was thinking in PUG mode and not CW mode. Players would not take 3 Awesomes and lose their fourth mech, but they do take 3 TDR-9S and have 45 tons left over for their fourth. You see in CW that extra weight has to grant something special while in a PUG they just use Quirks to flat balance the mechs.

[Roadbuster]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Um, no.

A few specific mechs need to have their PPC/ER-PPC related quirks nerfed. Nothing more. Far and wide, PPC/ER-PPCs are of themselves, lackluster at best.

Which is pretty laughable for "one of the most effective weapons" created.

QFT.

The only Thunderbolts you see are either 5SS with MPL or the current meta 9S with 3 ERPPC.
The quirks on these mechs, and some others, almost force them to use a specific weapon for a specific mech.
And that's killing diversity.

When was the last time you saw a 5SS with something else than MPL, or a 9S without ERPPC for example.
Or think about how often you see Commandos, Novas, Dragons (besides the 1N), Quickdraws, Orions, Highlanders,...

Imho, it might be best to get rid of specific weapon buffs, and adjust the general weapon buffs instead (ballistic, energy, missile) to make underused or weak mechs more viable and interesting.
And if a weapon doesn't get used because it's just too bad, adjust that weapon and don't give a few selected mechs insane buffs for that single weapon.

Edited by Roadbuster, 28 January 2015 - 08:53 AM.

[Variant1]

occusoj, on 28 January 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

1. 'A PPC without massive heat quirks is a terrible close range weapon. Not just because it deals a solid 0 damage once your opponent gets closer than 90m but mostly because it has too low DPS for too much heat and weight.
The ER version is even worse in terms of heat.'

2. 'It yields 10 damage for 10 heat. Which already is a huge lot worse than the LPL which gives 11 damage for 7 heat and quicker CD.
Its one damage per heat and besides the ERPPC the worst weapon I can think of. Well, except for the flamer but we all know at what level of usefullness it currently resides.'

It is indeed a terrible close range weapon since it has a min range, it was my fault for not being specific. The ppc may not be good at close range but mid range it is also effective other than long range. Again the heat is not so much of a problem but the fact this is essentially an ac10 with infinite ammo its not surprising that it has heat and a min range as a drawback. As for ERPPC, yes there is a lot more heat but the min range is completely gone opening it for more close encounters so it makes sense for the added heat.

Yes the large pulse laser does more damage for less heat but unlike the ppc its damage is not instantaneous, meaning you can spread the damage where a ppc is instant pin point damage meaning if you don't twist in time thats instant dmg to take(which means the ppc user can immediately twist and spread retaliation damage while waiting for the cooldown to finish), as for the cooldown for LPL i'm not sure if it is fast but it is most likely the quirks giving it fast cooldown.

As i have stated before this weapon requires a lot of skill to use not because its terrible but because it is different than the standard laser ac builds and is dependent on knowing its weaknesses and strengths.

Edited by Variant1, 28 January 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Alek Ituin]

uebersoldat, on 28 January 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

No, PPC needs severe 'mech systems disruption. Radar, HUD and vision should go ape for a second or two on being hit. I'm not sure why they haven't done this. It's like they don't understand the nature of the weapon at all. It's not a laser bullet. It's LIGHTNING.

First off: The PPC is a PARTICLE Cannon, not a lightning cannon. It fires a particle beam from a linear accelerator that might cause EM disruption on impact. It looks like lightning when fired, but the very name of the gun says it isn't.

Secondly, any conductive surface acts as electromagnetic shielding. If you know anything about Mech armor from the lore, you'd know it contains conductive elements as the majority of the composite. Conductive armor = no EM disruption.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 28 January 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[occusoj]

Variant1, on 28 January 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Again the heat is not so much of a problem

It is the main problem. Just try going up against a decent laser build with an unquirked PPC carrier at medium range.
Theres a reason the PPC became rare on chassis without huge quirks for it. And its not peoples low skill in my opinion.

Variant1, on 28 January 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

as for the cooldown for LPL i'm not sure if it is fast but it is most likely the quirks giving it fast cooldown.

3.25 seconds CD according to smurfy. Without quirks.

[Variant1]

occusoj, on 28 January 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

It is the main problem. Just try going up against a decent laser build with an unquirked PPC carrier at medium range.
Theres a reason the PPC became rare on chassis without huge quirks for it. And its not peoples low skill in my opinion.

Okay heat is a problem but isn't it for energy weapons in general? I mean the ppc has more heat but its also does pin point damage thats kind of its thing. As for quirks the reason is that certain quirks focus on different weapons such as lasers or ballistics. Personally i don't like the cooldown and heat reduction quirks since they decrease time to kill and make custom builds less viable that don't use those quirks.

Thank you for sharing your opinion and telling me the LPL cool-down, i appreciate that you take a different view on this.

[occusoj]

Variant1, on 28 January 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Okay heat is a problem but isn't it for energy weapons in general? I mean the ppc has more heat but its also does pin point damage thats kind of its thing.

Absolutely, yes. Heat is a big element in balancing energy weapons.
The PPCs current problem is that, in my opinion, the benefit of ammo independent PP-damage gets more than offset by the disadvantage of delayed damage, lots of heat and low dps/high CD.
That combination makes it much less desireable to use than the LPL unless it gets enormous quirks to helpt that.

Variant1, on 28 January 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Personally i don't like the cooldown and heat reduction quirks since they decrease time to kill ..

I agree with this too. Quirks should at most be mild buffs but not be applied to drastically alter damage output as it was done on certain mechs.
If such measures are needed to make a mech or weapon viable theres a much bigger problem in fundamental weapon/game design.

[Almond Brown]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 10 January 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

CW yet again causing players to make a problem out of something that isn't actually a problem.

Hey! "Energy" vomit is the "thing" now man...

[LordKnightFandragon]

occusoj, on 28 January 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

Absolutely, yes. Heat is a big element in balancing energy weapons.
The PPCs current problem is that, in my opinion, the benefit of ammo independent PP-damage gets more than offset by the disadvantage of delayed damage, lots of heat and low dps/high CD.
That combination makes it much less desireable to use than the LPL unless it gets enormous quirks to helpt that.


I agree with this too. Quirks should at most be mild buffs but not be applied to drastically alter damage output as it was done on certain mechs.
If such measures are needed to make a mech or weapon viable theres a much bigger problem in fundamental weapon/game design.

Totally this....

Quirks should have been exactly as you say. Just mild little things to stack up alongside CD mods and other stuff to give you slight edge.

[uebersoldat]

Alek Ituin, on 28 January 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

First off: The PPC is a PARTICLE Cannon, not a lightning cannon. It fires a particle beam from a linear accelerator that might cause EM disruption on impact. It looks like lightning when fired, but the very name of the gun says it isn't.

Secondly, any conductive surface acts as electromagnetic shielding. If you know anything about Mech armor from the lore, you'd know it contains conductive elements as the majority of the composite. Conductive armor = no EM disruption.

Straight from Sarna - "Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors."

EDIT: http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

Edited by uebersoldat, 28 January 2015 - 03:55 PM.

[Mad Strike]

uebersoldat, on 28 January 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

Straight from Sarna - "Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors."

EDIT: http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

We had this on MW4 , why pgi didn't put it on MWO?!

[LordKnightFandragon]

uebersoldat, on 28 January 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

Straight from Sarna - "Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors."

EDIT: http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

So could that field inhibitor also be applied to Clan ERPPC and normal ERPPC as a slight balancing mechanic to allow us to get worthwhile mid-long range ERPPC while making them worse at closer ranges?

I liked I think it was Bishop who posted like the CERPPC being

0-90 10/2.5/2.5
91-810: 15
beyond that was normal degradation.

I suppose we could make the degradation closer then 90m be something like 0.75 dmg for ever 10m closer, but give us 15 PP beyond that. It would give us a punchy CERPPC, but balance it alongside the IS PPC which should also get a similar mechanic.

PPC suffers the normal 1dmg per 10m closer then 90m, to 0 at real close range
ERPPC suffering only 0.5 dmg per 10m closer then 90. This would give it 5dmg at point blank, alongside the CERPPC which would suffer similar fate that close in.
CERPPC at 0.75dmg closer then 90m, but having a 15pt start would degrade it up close, but still let it hold a damage advantage, even close up.

So basically close then 90m

PPC=1
ERPPC=5.5
CERPPC=8.25

But beyond that they are
PPC: 10/10 540m
ISERPPC: 10/12 810m
CERPPC: 15/15 810m

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 28 January 2015 - 04:11 PM.