108 replies to this topic

[Destoroyah]

well part of the problem is that they initially tiered the K2 as a tier 3 brawler where as the TDR9S was a tier 5 support. So the K@ got noticeably reduced quirks then the TDR 9S. After ALOT of complaining(and rightfully so) about the K2 not being a PPC support they changed it to PPC but kept it at a tier 3 rank when it would of easily been reduced to a tier 4/5 if it was considered from the support role angle with PPCs being the main weapon and not the brawler from the get go. So the PPC alteration to the K2 was done just to satisfy the population without taking the time to sit back and think how the PPC focus effected the mech and what it would take to make it work.

Mechs like the awesome and the K2 need to be brought up to a lvl similar to the TDR9S. I believe the TDR 9S is only a little over the top and a small change would help bring it in line like taking 5% from each of the heat gen quirks and adding a 10% laser range or duration.

[Davers]

When has the K2 ever been the 'go to' PPC chassis? Answer: Never. Even at the height of the PPC craze it was never widely used.

[Otto Cannon]

The K2 was killed when they gave it and the Firebrand each other's quirks.

[Destoroyah]

The K2 is A iconic PPC platform in BT lore like the Awesome but in MWO was mostly used as a Ballistic mech. During the PPC craze it fell behind cause there were heavier mechs that could do larger PPC boats with high mounting and run cooler or could PPC poptart which the K2 can't. However if the K2 got a quirk treatment similar to the 9S I'm sure it would start seeing use as has similar properties to the TDR

[occusoj]

Quote

well part of the problem is that they initially tiered the K2 as a tier 3 brawler

qft.
To be honest, it escapes me how someone can classify the K2 as brawler. Its too fragile and doesnt have the agility to offset that. This was the first big mistake they made here.

Second was adhering to that 2xAC10 build. It combines all disadvantages the chassis has.
Main guns are low, whole upper body has to be exposed for a shot. It cant run a really big engine to do that quickly.
The AC10 itself isnt a stellar weapon to begin with. It requires extreme quirks to make it work well.
4 ML, two of them low mounted, dont turn the tide.
One of the chassis "strong" points, the high mounted energy weapons, is totally ignored by that build.

Its a very rare build in solo, next to extinct. Usually they run 2xERLL/Gauss, 2xERLL/2xUAC5 or 4(ER)LL with the rare 2xGR tossed in the mix. Note the astonishing absence of PPCs.

Besides massive ERPPC buffing, the torso twist nerf has to go. Theres no sane reason for it, never has been, never will be.
Im convinced that someone at PGI hates the whole Catapult lineup with a passion. Look at the A1s bolt-on launchers or C1/C4 buffs for example.

[Bishop Steiner]

occusoj, on 12 January 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

qft.
To be honest, it escapes me how someone can classify the K2 as brawler. Its too fragile and doesnt have the agility to offset that. This was the first big mistake they made here.

Second was adhering to that 2xAC10 build. It combines all disadvantages the chassis has.
Main guns are low, whole upper body has to be exposed for a shot. It cant run a really big engine to do that quickly.
The AC10 itself isnt a stellar weapon to begin with. It requires extreme quirks to make it work well.
4 ML, two of them low mounted, dont turn the tide.
One of the chassis "strong" points, the high mounted energy weapons, is totally ignored by that build.

Its a very rare build in solo, next to extinct. Usually they run 2xERLL/Gauss, 2xERLL/2xUAC5 or 4(ER)LL with the rare 2xGR tossed in the mix. Note the astonishing absence of PPCs.

Besides massive ERPPC buffing, the torso twist nerf has to go. Theres no sane reason for it, never has been, never will be.
Im convinced that someone at PGI hates the whole Catapult lineup with a passion. Look at the A1s bolt-on launchers or C1/C4 buffs for example.

easy answer:

Sean Lang.

It is his pet build. And while NGNG has done a lot for PGI/MWO, sometimes his opinions hold too much sway.

It's why I fought tooth and nail (and mostly won) to see them based and tiered off their intended "stock" role, as trying to build by the Meta role is folly, since the meta shifts.

It's why I am still fighting to get weapon specific Quirks tied to specific locations of a mech. I don't care if the TDR-9S has 50% heat reduction with it's ER PPC..... as long as it's that single ER PPC it was built around. A section designed to house flamers should not transfer magical ER PPC qualities to itself, and it certainly should not be doing so BETTER than traditional, equally low or lower tier chassis based around PPC/ER PPC do. It also would still allow the 3 ER PPC build, but 2 of them would only get 25% heat reduction, not 50%. So they would be 11 heat, not 15, which is still sizable, but not enough to encourage spamfire.

Another issue is the tiers were based on popularity of a chassis, which is NOT the same as it's actual effectiveness, outside of the top few chassis. The TDR was never a bad chassis. It was just dull and uninspired, and introduced when laservomit was NOT the meta.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 12 January 2015 - 09:42 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Prosperity Park, on 11 January 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

OR...

... don't give ERPPC boosts to Flamer mounts...

Then the K2 should get only MG quirks for its Ballistic mounts.

[Bishop Steiner]

Almond Brown, on 12 January 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Then the K2 should get only MG quirks for its Ballistic mounts.

The K2 should get no ballistic works. The MGs are support weapons on it, not a featured weapon

[MeiSooHaityu]

I have been using the K2 to good effect with 2 PPCs, 1 A/C 10, and 2 MLasers. A good build that isn't even close to the Thud 9S.

As a Catapult pilot, I hate to say it, but Catapult pilots are people who like the platform. As it stands, liking it is the only reason to choose it.

I would like to see a buff to PPC velocity (40%) and a ERPPC velocity quirk of 40% (should be competitive to the velocities of the current best PPC machines). Maybe even a slightly better cooling. Ditch this ballistics range crap.

Even if you were worried about a combo PPC/ballistic machine, it wouldn't be better than a Thud. Even...EVEN if it matched the current 9S in damage, the Cat K2 is going to be running an XL (more fragile), and it has a squishy CT. It will never out tank a Thunderbolt.

I dont see why PGI has so many reservations with this mech.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 12 January 2015 - 11:41 AM.

[RG Notch]

Prosperity Park, on 11 January 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

No, no, no... miscommunication.

What I meant was that tthe 2 high-mounted Flamer mounts on the Thunderbolt should not offer any Quirks to ERPPCs mounted there. The Thunderbolt 9S should get MASSIVE ERPPC quirks... but only on the Right Arm.

They're not flamer mounts, they're energy hardpoints, that appears to be the miscommunication.

[Pjwned]

I won't be surprised if PGI's answer is to just buff the K2 to 9S levels and then some, despite how stupid that would be.

Prosperity Park, on 11 January 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

No, no, no... miscommunication.

What I meant was that tthe 2 high-mounted Flamer mounts on the Thunderbolt should not offer any Quirks to ERPPCs mounted there. The Thunderbolt 9S should get MASSIVE ERPPC quirks... but only on the Right Arm.

That would set a very interesting precedent, hardpoint specific quirks kind of like omnipod specific quirks.

I like it actually.

[terrycloth]

The quirk the catapult actually needs is +50% CT damage reduction.

[wanderer]

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I have no idea why the K2 got such weak boosts considering the boosts given to the Flamer-ERPPC sniper 9S

Easy. The K2 was still reasonably in use, while the 9S was the Welfarebolt and prior to quirks, Thunderbolts didn't make much of an impression.

What's hilarious is seeing how MWO quirked 'Mechs for specific weapons that not only the original didn't carry, but in some cases for weapons that weren't even available when the 'Mech was built.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pjwned, on 12 January 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

I won't be surprised if PGI's answer is to just buff the K2 to 9S levels and then some, despite how stupid that would be.



That would set a very interesting precedent, hardpoint specific quirks kind of like omnipod specific quirks.

I like it actually.

it's one I have been trying to push as well as omnipod specific ones, in my other thread.

[Bishop Steiner]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 11 January 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

Yeah but doing location specific quirks is really going to make people really assmad.

Only one I can think of that would actually be cool would be a La Malinche mouth Flamer that melted the **** out of people

You see, I am all for Chassis quirks...as the basic "General" Layers. Give the TDR-9S it's 25% Energy heat reduction.
THEN give the specific quirks to Location, such as ER PPC heat reduction 25% RA, MLasers 25% Heat Reduction LT (or even LT/RT, if needed.)

Then one coul dstill use those upper slots for 2 ER PPC at 11 heat each, 2 ER Large Lasers at what 6 each? Large Pulse for 8.25 each.

Or PPCs for 7.5 (sound familiar) but having the lower projectile speed, lesser range and an exploitable minimum range as counter balances.

[Pjwned]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 11 January 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

Yeah but doing location specific quirks is really going to make people really assmad.

Only one I can think of that would actually be cool would be a La Malinche mouth Flamer that melted the **** out of people

The reason I like it is because it would limit boating weapons that are quirked to insanity like we have now with the 9S, but generalized quirks would still help if you still wanted to (for example) boat more ER-PPCs in other slots with the 9S.

It encourages more balanced builds in a way that makes sense.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Pjwned, on 12 January 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

The reason I like it is because it would limit boating weapons that are quirked to insanity like we have now with the 9S, but generalized quirks would still help if you still wanted to (for example) boat more ER-PPCs in other slots with the 9S.

It encourages more balanced builds in a way that makes sense.

Yes!

Mech-wide quirks create a situation where the best way to utilize a Mch's potential is to load it with as many of the quirked weapon as possible, all over the Mech.

Component a specific quirks more accurately reflect what a quirked Mech should actually do based on mechanical design, AND encourage the use of Mixed loadouts.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 12 January 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

Yes!

Mech-wide quirks create a situation where the best way to utilize a Mch's potential is to load it with as many of the quirked weapon as possible, all over the Mech.

Component a specific quirks more accurately reflect what a quirked Mech should actually do based on mechanical design, AND encourage the use of Mixed loadouts.

so, just curious what your take is on my twist to your idea? General and Mobility quirks by chassis, various degrees of Specialized quirks by Location/Omnipod?

[Brody319]

Maybe they could put hardpoint quirks in once they redo the mechlab.

[aniviron]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 11 January 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

They just overdid it.
The 9S should be a good ERPPCer but not so good people only run 3 ERPPC and definitely not as good as an AWS 9M.

IMO scale the heat reduction back by 15% and boost the medium lasers a bit so people run 2ERPPC and MLs
Then boost the 9Ms heat reduction by another 5-10%

The crazy thing is, the TDR-9S gets twice the heat reduction for ER PPCs that the AWS-9M gets. It's double the amount.

I mean, I know the Thunderbolt wasn't an amazing chassis before quirks, but it certainly wasn't awful. It wasn't nearly as bad as pre-quirk Awesomes.

And the funny thing is, the Awesome and Thunderbolt are in the same 'tier,' yet the TDR gets double the quirk magnitude? I just don't get it.