108 replies to this topic

[Grey Ghost]

The quirk pass cemented the uselessness of the K2 for me. Were I any less of a penny pincher I would have replaced it with a Jagermech long ago. I had hoped the quirk pass would make it relevant again, seeing as how it is statistically my most played Mech (no cheese). Which surprises me quite honestly, given how it only shows up on my archived statistics.

Bishop Steiner, on 11 January 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

Blame the lads at NGNG who Russ listens to. Certain interested parties favor a 2x AC10, 4x ML K2, and so the initial quirks were for that.

NGNG behind the *weird Orion quirks as well?

*insert expletive here

[MikeBend]

OP forgot one of the most important points, after PPC bores redesign, K2 looks UGLY. And that multiplies all negative effects like 10 times. So yeah, pretty obsolete now.

[Krivvan]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 January 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

It's why I fought tooth and nail (and mostly won) to see them based and tiered off their intended "stock" role, as trying to build by the Meta role is folly, since the meta shifts.

The problem is that stock builds often make no sense whatsoever. Who in their right mind mixes SRMs, LRMs, and LBXs together? There isn't any possible way that works unless you completely change the entire game.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 January 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

so, just curious what your take is on my twist to your idea? General and Mobility quirks by chassis, various degrees of Specialized quirks by Location/Omnipod?

Omnipods already have specific quirks. More mobility quirks would be nice, but they're already coming.

And the problems with the K2 I think go beyond what can be fixed with sane quirks. It just isn't a very well designed chassis for it down to the basic shape with the gigantic arms that don't converge well compared to its better torso mounts.

Edited by Krivvan, 13 January 2015 - 01:09 AM.

[darkchylde]

aniviron, on 12 January 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

The crazy thing is, the TDR-9S gets twice the heat reduction for ER PPCs that the AWS-9M gets. It's double the amount.

I mean, I know the Thunderbolt wasn't an amazing chassis before quirks, but it certainly wasn't awful. It wasn't nearly as bad as pre-quirk Awesomes.

And the funny thing is, the Awesome and Thunderbolt are in the same 'tier,' yet the TDR gets double the quirk magnitude? I just don't get it.

Makes you wonder - why the Thunderbolt was made the Awesome.

[Black Arachne]

Why aren't these quirks another type of module - that way we can choose what quirks we want on our favorite mechs?

[Galenit]

Black Arachne, on 13 January 2015 - 01:33 AM, said:

Why aren't these quirks another type of module - that way we can choose what quirks we want on our favorite mechs?

Do you know why quirks are made?
The whole quirks system is another bandaid and overcomplicated system like ghostheat for balancing.

Giving mechs weaponslots with crits would make both obsolente, put real heatsinks and heatpenaltys in (less containment, more dissipation) and you can use the old tt balancing.

Or you can try to find a new balance with complicated systems that make balancing nearly impossible.
(Think about all the new parameters you have to count for with quirks and ghostheat..)

Edited by Galenit, 13 January 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Dunno what and how PGI balances mechs, but clearly balance should make mechs viable compared to others, and it should make them more equal and close gaps instead of generating them, or even more worse, make them completely obsolete.

So after initially designing the quirks, the first thing is to check this in comparison to all other mechs (yes this is probably the biggest effort timewise when balancing). But this should have clearly shown that either the catapults quirks were chosen too low, or the thunderbolts ones are chosen way too high.

As long as PGi does not do this, most balance attemps will probaby fail by random sideeffects.

Bishop Steiner, on 11 January 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

Blame the lads at NGNG who Russ listens to. Certain interested parties favor a 2x AC10, 4x ML K2, and so the initial quirks were for that. Since the Catapult was still more popular than the THUD; by their really poor reasoning on assigning tiers, it had to be better.

>SMH

So this is how they balance? really?
then, yes an issue if you listen to a specific group of people, I mean who are they? Are they even the awesome players knowint enough about everything, or just NGNG guys? What qualifies them to advice PGI over the people in the Forum? What qualifies them in general?

Galenit, on 13 January 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

Do you know why quirks are made?
The whole quirks system is another bandaid and overcomplicated system like ghostheat for balancing.

Giving mechs weaponslots with crits would make both obsolente, put real heatsinks and heatpenaltys in (less containment, more dissipation) and you can use the old tt balancing.

Or you can try to find a new balance with complicated systems that make balancing nearly impossible.
(Think about all the new parameters you have to count for with quirks and ghostheat..)

while agreeing with the heatsystem could be done different, I can not say this is solving issues, because we play mechs that in TT have Battlevalues and a price, and in TT there are clearly mechs worse than others (but then cheaper in price). But here in MWO, one pilot, one mech. and so the inferior mechs will always be inferior, which then requires some special treatments to make them a valid choice in an FPS game. Quirks are not a bad idea at all.

Edited by Lily from animove, 13 January 2015 - 03:33 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Prosperity Park, on 11 January 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

No, no, no... miscommunication.

What I meant was that tthe 2 high-mounted Flamer mounts on the Thunderbolt should not offer any Quirks to ERPPCs mounted there. The Thunderbolt 9S should get MASSIVE ERPPC quirks... but only on the Right Arm.

I see what you are saying there, but - just so you know - no one would ever use it like that, same as no one uses the Cicada with massive ERPPC quirks. Just one aint enough, even with crazy quirks, especially on a low mounted arm.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 13 January 2015 - 03:40 AM.

[Curccu]

Hey hey! According to what I have been reading in here forums past few days you are not allowed to say anything bad about this well balanced Thunderbolt-9S, as IS player.

[Lily from animove]

Curccu, on 13 January 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

Hey hey! According to what I have been reading in here forums past few days you are not allowed to say anything bad about this well balanced Thunderbolt-9S, as IS player.

if you do, com star does assassinate you.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Thunderbolt-9S makes every other single PPC or ERPPC platform for Clan or IS obsolete.

And bring on those assassins, I'll PPC vomit every single one of them, they'll never even get me hot.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mister D, on 13 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Thunderbolt-9S makes every other single PPC or ERPPC platform for Clan or IS obsolete.

And bring on those assassins, I'll PPC vomit every single one of them, they'll never even get me hot.

Thats the truth.

Maybe the Thud 9S should be PPC instead of ERPPC

[Bishop Steiner]

Grey Ghost, on 13 January 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

The quirk pass cemented the uselessness of the K2 for me. Were I any less of a penny pincher I would have replaced it with a Jagermech long ago. I had hoped the quirk pass would make it relevant again, seeing as how it is statistically my most played Mech (no cheese). Which surprises me quite honestly, given how it only shows up on my archived statistics.


NGNG behind the *weird Orion quirks as well?

*insert expletive here

hard to say, TBH. There were quite a few of the 1.0 quirks that were Sean's pet builds, recognizable form broadcast. Others, IDK. Hopefully Russ had input from more than JUST one person?

[Bishop Steiner]

Krivvan, on 13 January 2015 - 01:07 AM, said:

The problem is that stock builds often make no sense whatsoever. Who in their right mind mixes SRMs, LRMs, and LBXs together? There isn't any possible way that works unless you completely change the entire game.


Omnipods already have specific quirks. More mobility quirks would be nice, but they're already coming.

And the problems with the K2 I think go beyond what can be fixed with sane quirks. It just isn't a very well designed chassis for it down to the basic shape with the gigantic arms that don't converge well compared to its better torso mounts.

You're right, stock roles often "don't make sense". Especially to a power gamer. And in this environment, where we only ever fight other mechs.

But let's take the K2 for instance.

It is SUPPOSED to be a medium to long range direct fire support unit, which is fine, because the Catapults hitboxes do not support CQB of any sort well.

3 Weapon systems. 2x PPC, 2x M,lasers, 2x MG.
Primary Weapons are PPCs, (14 tons devoted to them)

Secondary anti mech/anti armor are the Medium Lasers (also more accurate under 90m than PPCs)

Tertiary were a pair of Machine Gun added for close support, anti infantry use.



So which system makes the most sense to buff and focus on? The Ballistics, apparently, despite the fact they were added as an afterthought. And account for 1 total ton of the design, vs 2, or 14.



No, you buff the Energy Weapons with a generous "General" quirk". Then you Focus the Buffs on the nice high mounted PPCs that the could be very effective, if they had TDR-like buffs, instead of the mediocre buffs they were begrudgingly switched to. If you have any "quirkage" left over, ift goes to the Medium Lasers. And NOTHING to the ballistics. MGs should only account for ballistics buffs if they are a major weapon system, such as on the Huggin, some Firestarters, LCT-1V, Arrow, etc.



And a sensible approach to something like the K2 would actually be to give really nice PPC buffs, and maybe give nearly as generous buffs for ER PPCs, because that is a very simple system swap, that really doesn't require re-engineering the mech.



But to buff it for AC10s? No, no and no.



Most Stock MEchs don't make sense if you try to buff every one of their systems. And that is why one shouldn't even try. Identify what it's role is intended to be, what it's primary weapon is, and it's secondary, and set the Quirks based off it's intended role and primary weapons, not something as nebulous as the meta.

And yes, not every mech in it's designed role, will be a tier 1 competitive contender. They never have been, and weren't when they all had meta oriented quirks. (An LRM Boat will likely never be a regular in LORDS or SJR dropdecks because LRMs are not good at that level of play. But that is not a good reason to quirk them for SRMs, especially when the Catapult in general is not a "meta" chassis.)

But they all were a lot better for casual play, which is where 95% of the population resides, and at the end of the day, the truly competitive scene, is going to be running a very narrow set of builds and weapons, no matter what.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 January 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[Mycrus]

Because this is what happens when cancers are allowed to fester and is left treated with band-aid upon band-aid when even the orderly knows that surgery is what is needed..

[Bishop Steiner]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 January 2015 - 03:39 AM, said:

I see what you are saying there, but - just so you know - no one would ever use it like that, same as no one uses the Cicada with massive ERPPC quirks. Just one aint enough, even with crazy quirks, especially on a low mounted arm.

which is why I prefer a middle ground.

General "base tier" quirks are chassis wide.

So the TDR-9S should get 25% heat reduction on Energy Weapons, no matter where they are located.
But specific quirks, like ER PPC should be located where the weapon is meant to be. SO the Right Arm gets an additional 25%.

Now like you say, ugh! Only 1 ER PPC! Ruined!.

Except those 2 torso hardpoints still can mount ER PPCs, at 25% heat reduction, or 11.25 instead of 15. Not as "good" (ie broke as heck) as 7.5, but certainly a substantial amount off. Just not enough to allow for non-stop mindless spam, like the 9S currently does.

Or you could mount a pair of ER Large for 6 heat each.

Or...standard PPCs for that same 7.5 heat it currently packs ER PPCs for, but be slightly slower projectile speed, a 540 meter range, and a minimum range to boot, aka have some form of weakness to exploit. Because 3 ER PPC, for 7.5 heat, fired every 1.8 seconds are effective at every range and every situation.




(And for those desperately clinging to it being the only bastion of defense against those dastardly 4 ER Large Clan Mechs, remember, the TW and SC are OP too, and need to be addressed. This conversation is not happening in a vacuum.

But even if it did, over 10 seconds, the 4x CERLLaser is (using half second intervals between pairs so no GH for both units) Laying 132 damage (2 pairs of 2 each 3 times because with beam duration you cooldown is 4.16 seconds) for 120 heat, at 740 meters while the TDR-9S laying out 140 (dual PPC plast 5x, single 4, as you cooldown is 1.8 seconds) damage for 105 damage at 810 meters.

And while the lasers are hitscan, they also have a beam duration of 1.5 seconds requiring the Clan Mech to be fully exposed (especially since most have low mounted energy hardpoints) And that the damage is easily spread, whereas the the ER PPCs, while slower,(though at 800 meters plenty fast enough on the TDR-9S) ar PP-FLD and can be used with minimal exposure, and you can twist and hide immediately after shooting.)

So real world, effective on target damage of the ER LArges is probably closer to 80-90 damage. If all even hit to begin with.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 January 2015 - 09:30 AM.

[Gallowglas]

No, the K2 renders the K2 obsolete. It needs more quirks love before it will be truly competitive again. It wasn't just the weapon choice. I think that was fine. It's that the boosts were too modest and that the K2 had already suffered some of the most ridiculously over-reactive nerfs previously.

Edited by Gallowglas, 13 January 2015 - 09:23 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gallowglas, on 13 January 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

No, the K2 renders the K2 obsolete. It needs more quirks love before it will be truly competitive again. It wasn't just the weapon choice. I think that was fine. It's that the boosts were too modest and that the K2 had already suffered some of the most ridiculously over-reactive nerfs previously.

You are correct, and still wrong, lol.

The K2 was given, very begrudging, inferior quirks after some of us rode Russ enough to get them changed. But the very nature of the way the Quirks are chassis wide, added to the insane level the TDR-9S was given, is the nail in the Coffin.

The TDR ER PPCs better than the K2, or any AWESOME runs any form of PPC. That should simply not be.

Of course..... I don't quite get why they decided to put flamers in such ridiculous high mounts (well or why FASA put them in the torso to begin with) when for their intended role, anti-infantry, they would make more sense much lower (or even better, in the Arms) mounted.

SMH...maybe the flamers were meant for burning large alien mosquitos out of the sky?

[Gallowglas]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

The TDR ER PPCs better than the K2, or any AWESOME runs any form of PPC. That should simply not be.

Well, my point is that if remove the 9s from the picture entirely, the K2 still would not be a competitive choice. The K2 should never have had two energy hardpoints removed, nor should its up/down axis have been so heavily restricted. To me, if you reverse those two things alone, the K2 could probably compete again.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

SMH...maybe the flamers were meant for burning large alien mosquitos out of the sky?

Or maybe just Texas Sized: