108 replies to this topic

[MATRAKA14]

I don't know why this thread was closed to begin with.
http://mwomercs.com/...me-models-back/

We still have this one on going. 1075 replies, 66,368 views, that means somthing, no?
http://mwomercs.com/...-broken-the-a1/

Catapults need their aesthetics and their 140 degrees torso twist back. Also good quirks, extra points if they rescale the mech or change the hitbox but that is not going to happen, maybe good textures?

[Bishop Steiner]

MATRAKA14, on 13 January 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

I don't know why this thread was closed to begin with.
http://mwomercs.com/...me-models-back/

We still have this one on going. 1075 replies, 66,368 views, that means somthing, no?
http://mwomercs.com/...-broken-the-a1/

Catapults need their aesthetics and their 140 degrees torso twist back. Also good quirks, extra points if they rescale the mech or change the hitbox but that is not going to happen, maybe good textures?

rescale will never happen. too much investment to return.

The rest? Absolutely should happen. Heck those old barrels have to still be in their system somewhere, and the rest is html stuff.

[wanderer]

It's pretty blatantly obvious that quirking had nothing to do with the actual 'Mech design, but more "what can we do to enhance a specific build"?

Thus, we now have a 65-tonner that's better than the posterchild of PPC's mounting the same guns with massively enhanced firepower.

The quirk system -really- needs a go-over.

[darkchylde]

wanderer, on 13 January 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

It's pretty blatantly obvious that quirking had nothing to do with the actual 'Mech design, but more "what can we do to enhance a specific build"?

Thus, we now have a 65-tonner that's better than the posterchild of PPC's mounting the same guns with massively enhanced firepower.

The quirk system -really- needs a go-over.

I always wanted to buy the Awesome, like many I grow up watching the cartoon but with the 1.4dhs/ghost heat..the mech was very subpar but beeing an owner of the phoenix package, it's nice to see the thunderbolt get some love but not at the expanse of making the defining PPC platforms of the last 30 years under perform to a mech that was never used in that role in the first place.

Edited by darkchylde, 13 January 2015 - 02:02 PM.

[Escef]

Ok, this is actually a silly thread. Firstly, the K2 was mostly used as a ballistics bed in actual play. Secondly, it was NOT obsoleted by the Thunderbolt, it was obsoleted ages ago by the Jagermech.

I will say this, though. This thread makes me want dust off my K2 and pull it out again.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Prosperity Park, on 11 January 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

I have no idea why the K2 got such weak boosts considering the boosts given to the Flamer-ERPPC sniper 9S

If I had to guess, in a word, hitboxes.

Catapults are strong XL carriers, while T-Bowls are terrible for XLs. Catapults are nimble, T-Bowls are not.

That said, I'd not say no to the 9S getting the ERPPC quirks tuned down and having some potent ML quirks added in to compensate, and the K2 could stand to have a few extra PPC boosts tossed its way.

[Bishop Steiner]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 13 January 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

If I had to guess, in a word, hitboxes.

Catapults are strong XL carriers, while T-Bowls are terrible for XLs. Catapults are nimble, T-Bowls are not.

That said, I'd not say no to the 9S getting the ERPPC quirks tuned down and having some potent ML quirks added in to compensate, and the K2 could stand to have a few extra PPC boosts tossed its way.

I really have yet to see why the TBolt is supposedly so bad at carrying an XL. It has massive ape arms that soak fire well for people that twist. Have run my 5S with an XL since it was released, and seldom die to ST destruction.

Definitely has better STs than the Jager. And is far more durable than the Catapult that get's CT scored the moment you show your face.

A strong XL carrier only really matters if you don't get CT cored instantly. That's why Shadowhawks, and Victors are such strong XL carriers.....massive arms.

Escef, on 13 January 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Ok, this is actually a silly thread. Firstly, the K2 was mostly used as a ballistics bed in actual play. Secondly, it was NOT obsoleted by the Thunderbolt, it was obsoleted ages ago by the Jagermech.

I will say this, though. This thread makes me want dust off my K2 and pull it out again.

and you're first line should be the first hint about what goes wrong, when a mech with torso mounted MGs and super high mounted PPCs becomes a go to Ballistics mech.......

(which was two fold.... in CB not only were PPCs hot with SHS, but their hit registration was non existent, arcing damage all over the place. Also, with SHS Gauss was the Meta....and it was the only mech capable of carrying 2 at the time.)

Which should have been the first hint they were doing it wrong.

[MATRAKA14]

With the existence of the firebrand, the absence of the k2 deleted ct energy hardpoints has no sense. but it's not going to happen because the jester.

It's like if the chassis is receiving the consequences of so many errors and mistakes of the past, one after another, its a shame, it was one of the most beautiful chassis of this game.

[Bluefalcon13]

Just picked up the K2... Never played one in beta.... Or since. Only other pult I havent played is the C4

[Burktross]

Prosperity Park, on 11 January 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

OR...

... don't give ERPPC boosts to Flamer mounts...

With the reason being?
Are you suggesting flamer quirks?
Flamer needs much more love than petty quirks to be remotely viable.

Galenit, on 13 January 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

Do you know why quirks are made?
The whole quirks system is another bandaid and overcomplicated system like ghostheat for balancing.

Giving mechs weaponslots with crits would make both obsolente, put real heatsinks and heatpenaltys in (less containment, more dissipation) and you can use the old tt balancing.

Or you can try to find a new balance with complicated systems that make balancing nearly impossible.
(Think about all the new parameters you have to count for with quirks and ghostheat..)

please this please

Edited by Burktross, 13 January 2015 - 04:34 PM.

[MATRAKA14]

Burktross, on 13 January 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

With the reason being?
Are you suggesting flamer quirks?
Flamer needs much more love than petty quirks to be remotely viable.

Yeah they need to fix flamers first, but flamer quirks with working flamers could be a satisfactory solution

[PurpleNinja]

In short, yes.

[Coolant]

only thing the K2 have over the Thunderbolt is the torso twist.

[Fate 6]

Escef, on 13 January 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Ok, this is actually a silly thread. Firstly, the K2 was mostly used as a ballistics bed in actual play. Secondly, it was NOT obsoleted by the Thunderbolt, it was obsoleted ages ago by the Jagermech.

I will say this, though. This thread makes me want dust off my K2 and pull it out again.

While it is true that it was obsoleted by the Jagermech, it is also true that if the K2 got the exact same perks that the 9S currently has the K2 would still be worse. So what we really need here is a rebalancing of quirks with both a nerf to the 9S and a significant buff to the K2's PPC quirks.

[Bluefalcon13]

Fate 6, on 14 January 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

While it is true that it was obsoleted by the Jagermech, it is also true that if the K2 got the exact same perks that the 9S currently has the K2 would still be worse. So what we really need here is a rebalancing of quirks with both a nerf to the 9S and a significant buff to the K2's PPC quirks.

I think the 9S needs a bit of a heat quirk Nerf. Nothing super crazy, but enough to make it feel like it has 3 erppcs. That would make it quite more balanced IMHO.

As for my K2, its a fun mech, but I always loved pults. Super stock build with DHS and an xl300. 20DHS (including the engine ones)

[Mad Porthos]

One thing of note, back when the K2 still had the 140 degree torso twist, it was more viable because you could physically turn the torso and roll damage much more effectively across side torsos and even arms when it had that range of motion, mitigating the HUGE center torso. But those who were really annoyed that it could carry two large ballistic like ac 20 or 10, when it is only a heavy said it needed to pay for this ability in some way, since it never was even intended to carry large ballistics in the original table top game/design and had no "down" side to pay for the incredible privilidge of carrying 2 x ac20. In response to this, they nerfed the K2 torso twist to what it is now, making the boom cat much easier to core.

This was of course before the Jaeger and once the jaeger was on the field and able to run 2 x ac 20, without a standard engine but instead a speedy XL, it became the ac20 platform of choice and subject of much QQ. Forgotten, the K2 became a long range support mech unable to face close combat because much like the awesome it would be cored or even worse, cockpitted because of its huge cockpit hitbox/head component, able to be hit from front on or even the sides. Again, without its twist, there was no making the K2 survivable by rolling damage when even from oblique angles you could easily hit cockpit glass or center torso. This made the only K2 survival technique = don't pilot one, OR if you must just run an XL since they will core you anyway, and run away alot to peek n snipe.

It could use its torso twist back, after all... victors got their agility nerfs rolled back, as did highlanders supposedly - so why not roll back an ancient and unfounded nerf? A nerf that has had the undesired negative consequences of K2s being CT cored so much more than normal that they had to give 10 additional structure in an attempt to remedy, only to still find them being cored just like Awesomes. While the cockpit glass is a little smaller, less hit-able from the side, it still never dies from losing a side torso because the twist is so restricted.

The very fact that torso twist was nerfed back then shows an incomplete appreciation that what was making the K2 effective in many instances was a pilot using a good technique damage rolling to compensate for the huge CT (for which it needed a wide range of twist) rather than something innately wrong or OP with the mech - that might justify a nerf.

I think in the times since that nerf, as other large torso mechs have been released and the ac20 jaeger eclipsed the boom cat, they have lightened up some on the illogical *** for tat balancing that resulted in this happening to the K2 - but this legacy nerf is an outstanding hobble on this beautiful-fugly chassis variant.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 14 January 2015 - 06:23 PM.

[MATRAKA14]

Mad Porthos, on 14 January 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

140 torso twist needs to be back for all the catapults definitely.

Edited by MATRAKA14, 14 January 2015 - 03:17 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bluefalcon13, on 14 January 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

I think the 9S needs a bit of a heat quirk Nerf. Nothing super crazy, but enough to make it feel like it has 3 erppcs. That would make it quite more balanced IMHO.

As for my K2, its a fun mech, but I always loved pults. Super stock build with DHS and an xl300. 20DHS (including the engine ones)

IDK, I'm of the idea that the Thud 9S should have PPC quirks instead of ERPPC quirks. Allow the PPCs to perform as the ERPPCs currently do (heat and cool down time wise), but now make the pilot decide if he should run one or two weapon slots with a close range protection weapon, or wing it (running just 3 PPCs) and hope something doesn't close to within 90m and tear him apart. There is also the slightly limited range of the PPC, but that can be offset with a quirk anyway. With the 9S being so powerful, it should have some risk to go with that kind of reward. Maybe it is the minimum range penalties of PPCs.

Now, on the other hand, the Catapult K2 should get ERPPC quirks as well as PPC quirks. PPCs in a K2 right now is great, but a mech with such a soft torso should have some minimum range protection that an ERPPC provides. It sucks when that light closes to under 90m and your forces you to defent yourself without your primariy weapons. Having good ERPPC quirks wouldn't make the Catapult K2 as overpowered as a Thud 9S because of the Cat's soft CT vs the Thuds tankiness (I think anyway). ERPPCs would allow it to use range and good minimum range firepower to protect itself.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 15 January 2015 - 03:05 AM, said:

IDK, I'm of the idea that the Thud 9S should have PPC quirks instead of ERPPC quirks. Allow the PPCs to perform as the ERPPCs currently do (heat and cool down time wise), but now make the pilot decide if he should run one or two weapon slots with a close range protection weapon, or wing it (running just 3 PPCs) and hope something doesn't close to within 90m and tear him apart. There is also the slightly limited range of the PPC, but that can be offset with a quirk anyway. With the 9S being so powerful, it should have some risk to go with that kind of reward. Maybe it is the minimum range penalties of PPCs.

Now, on the other hand, the Catapult K2 should get ERPPC quirks as well as PPC quirks. PPCs in a K2 right now is great, but a mech with such a soft torso should have some minimum range protection that an ERPPC provides. It sucks when that light closes to under 90m and your forces you to defent yourself without your primariy weapons. Having good ERPPC quirks wouldn't make the Catapult K2 as overpowered as a Thud 9S because of the Cat's soft CT vs the Thuds tankiness (I think anyway). ERPPCs would allow it to use range and good minimum range firepower to protect itself.

I'm against this, because the 9S mounts and ER PPC, hence it's quirks should be related to that. But it mounts ONE ER PPC. So as Prosperity says, either set the specialized quirk to a location, or severely reduce the level of the quirk, as the mech is not a dedicated er ppc boat.

As for the K2, there is a reason I say make the General Energy Heat Reduction at 35% and the PPC at 15% more. Because it comes with PPCs, that should be the focus. But with the general energy quirk being that high, er ppcs get a nice boost still, as do lasers. And you don't need a separate specialized laser quirk, anymore.

Though I could see quirks being run so that when you get a "specialty" quirks, as long as you mount anything in the "family" you get half the quirk still.

Hence, a 25% PPC quirk would still give 12.5% for ER PPC
25% on a Large Laser still gives 12.5% on ERLarge and LPL
25 on an SRM4 still gives 12.5% on SRM2, SRM6 and SSRMs,

etc?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 January 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Sarlic]

You should see some of the Atlas quirks. Those are bad. Like a AC/20 quirk for a D.. To name a example. That;s just wrong for one tier quirk

Would have given ballistic points instead of a specific weapon quirk. Not many run AC/20 on the D with 2 HPs for Ballistic

Edited by Sarlic, 15 January 2015 - 06:23 AM.