108 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Gallowglas, on 13 January 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Well, my point is that if remove the 9s from the picture entirely, the K2 still would not be a competitive choice. The K2 should never have had two energy hardpoints removed, nor should its up/down axis have been so heavily restricted. To me, if you reverse those two things alone, the K2 could probably compete again.

the K2 is also still the posterboy for why sized hardpoints should have been done, and it was obvious from the moment the first Gauss-a-Pult showed up in CB.

Sadly, those ships have all sailed.

About all one can hope for is a Dragon Level CT IS/Armor Buff, and TDR-9S level PPCs. (perhaps a 35% energy heat reduction, 15% PPC Heat) And since they are standard PPCs, you still have exploitable weakness, like long range and minimum range, give it the projectile speed boost like the Vindicator gets, and something like this might not make the Comp Team, but would be an effective build in public matches.
(18.2 heat per alpha)


Heck with 25-35% off general heat from energy period, this is a very doable build for CQG lovers (or a standard ac10 for the cost of a DHS) CPLT-K2

It would be cranking out the same heat (16 per alpha) that 4 Medium Lasers do.

So, in summation, how the K2 probably (IMO) should have been quirked:

+ 24 Internal Structure (CT) (since it's CT is just as squishy)
+ 10 Internal Structure (RA/LA)
+ 35% Energy Heat Reduction
+ 15% PPC Heat Reduction (or 25/25. Realistically, 20/20 would probably be more balanced)
+ 40% PPC Projectile Speed

But when you are seeing 35, 40 and 3v3n 50% reduction on mechs, then a mech like the K2, with obvious hitbox weaknesses and limited hardpoints, gets a bunch of willy nilly 7.5% and 10% quirks?

Someone really has not done their homework.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 January 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Even lore aside, I never understood the original 10% ballistic cool down buff choice.

I'm sure Sean Lang in some way inspired the choice, but it just never made sense for the platform.

If the K2 was tanky"er" like other mechs, maybe, but to use a quicker cool down requires more face time with the enemy. With that CT and low mounted ballistics, you were exposing the torso to a lot of enemy fire to use those ballistics. If PGI really wanted to give it ballistic quirks properly, the K2 needed a lot more internal or armor buffs to the CT to make ballistic quirks work anyway.

Like many people point out... With this platforms weak CT, and high mount arms, and lastly lore, it just screams for some really good PPC (and possibly ERPPC) quirks.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 January 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Even lore aside, I never understood the original 10% ballistic cool down buff choice.

I'm sure Sean Lang in some way inspired the choice, but it just never made sense for the platform.

If the K2 was tanky"er" like other mechs, maybe, but to use a quicker cool down requires more face time with the enemy. With that CT and low mounted ballistics, you were exposing the torso to a lot of enemy fire to use those ballistics. If PGI really wanted to give it ballistic quirks properly, the K2 needed a lot more internal or armor buffs to the CT to make ballistic quirks work anyway.

Like many people point out... With this platforms weak CT, and high mount arms, and lastly lore, it just screams for some really good PPC (and possibly ERPPC) quirks.

well, one reason I would lean toward the general energy heat reduction at 35% percent, instead of 25/25 would be because it is meant to be an energy platform, it also benefits the lasers more,m without giving them a separate quirk, and would be beneficial if someone wanted to do something like this

CPLT-K2
or
CPLT-K2
My old standby CB builds once DHS hit, which would now be 24.7/alpha and 20.5/alpha respectively.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Even with the current quirks, I have run 2 PPCs and 2 LPLasers and heat wasn't really an issue. I switched to 2 PPCs, 1 A/C10, 2 MLasers for a bit more FLD punch.

I will say this. With the current buff to ballistic range and an A/C 10 range module, the PPCs and A/C10 have the exact same max range (540m) and the cool down module to PPCs gets the cooldown close to the A/C 10 cool down time. It makes for really good synergy between the PPC and A/C 10 on that platform.

If the PPCs had a bit more velocity and/or quicker cool down, that would be a perfect combination for the K2 IMO.

[Alexandrix]

So,I'm a bit late to the party on this.I haven't been playing mwo much since I accepted that it's never going to be anything other than a "put as many weapons on one button and alpha strike to win" kind of game.I do apologize for being behind....but...

The tdr really has a FIFTY PERCENT heat reduction on erppc's? are you kidding me?

AHAHAHHAHAH who couldn't see how that would end up?

bwahahah man,this place is always good for a laugh.

[MeiSooHaityu]

What? You don't remember the 3 ERPPC sniper Thunderbolt 9S from all the old Battletech lore?....



Lol

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 13 January 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[occusoj]

Quote

Even with the current quirks, I have run 2 PPCs and 2 LPLasers and heat wasn't really an issue.

I played the build myself for some time. Its too hot for sustained engagement. 17DHS arent enought to keep it cool and 500m isnt a lot of range.
2xERLL+2xUAC5 trumps it in every way except that it needs more facetime. But as soon as the enemy has more important things to deal with than a K2 at 400+meters you are free to unload. It feels like delivering at least 50% more sustained dps than the PPC/LPL build. It has more range too.

Quote

It makes for really good synergy between the PPC and A/C 10 on that platform.

It combines two of the not-so-good weapon systems in MWO and while it does work at medium distances, its far from optimal.
Its a 30 point alpha with slow projectile speed. Upside: its PPFLD. Downside: So is 2xGR but at much longer ranges, better velocity and no heat to worry about. 2ML can be added to both if desired.

With generous heat reduction, 2xERPPC + GR could be a very viable build for long range support that easily surpasses the laser/AC ones for that purpose.

Quote

AHAHAHHAHAH who couldn't see how that would end up?

PGI .

[Alexandrix]

occusoj, on 13 January 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

PGI .

I think i just heard a nail being hit on the head lol

[MeiSooHaityu]

occusoj, on 13 January 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

I played the build myself for some time. Its too hot for sustained engagement. 17DHS arent enought to keep it cool and 500m isnt a lot of range.
2xERLL+2xUAC5 trumps it in every way except that it needs more facetime. But as soon as the enemy has more important things to deal with than a K2 at 400+meters you are free to unload. It feels like delivering at least 50% more sustained dps than the PPC/LPL build. It has more range too.


It combines two of the not-so-good weapon systems in MWO and while it does work at medium distances, its far from optimal.
Its a 30 point alpha with slow projectile speed. Upside: its PPFLD. Downside: So is 2xGR but at much longer ranges, better velocity and no heat to worry about. 2ML can be added to both if desired.

With generous heat reduction, 2xERPPC + GR could be a very viable build for long range support that easily surpasses the laser/AC ones for that purpose.


PGI .

Clearly I can't build a mech properly after years of playing this game . I just can't win.

Well here is a build your really going to hate. I built it before all the quirks. A rather interesting and fun train wreck. Your sure to hate it lol.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1b8dc5f7381df91

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 13 January 2015 - 11:16 AM.

[EvilCow]

The error was with the initial K2 classification, for some reason it was tier 2 (or 3?) and got very limited quirks, the wrong ones too.

Anyway, a mech with that CT will never really be competitive, it should be scaled.

[MeiSooHaityu]

EvilCow, on 13 January 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

The error was with the initial K2 classification, for some reason it was tier 2 (or 3?) and got very limited quirks, the wrong ones too.

Anyway, a mech with that CT will never really be competitive, it should be scaled.

I'm with you on that. It has a limited hard points for a heavy, a soft CT, no JJs, and no ECM yet it gets (I think) tier 3. It really shouldn't had been ranked as high as it was.

[Gallowglas]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 January 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

I'm with you on that. It has a limited hard points for a heavy, a soft CT, no JJs, and no ECM yet it gets (I think) tier 3. It really shouldn't had been ranked as high as it was.

As someone who always loved the K2 and tried very hard for a long time to make it work, I'm forced to agree. Limited hard points (thanks to unmerited nerfs), no JJs, no ECM, easy and soft CT, AND limited pitch (also nerfed) really put it out of contention. I want so badly for PGI to turn the chassis around because it's one of my favorite designs.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gallowglas, on 13 January 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

As someone who always loved the K2 and tried very hard for a long time to make it work, I'm forced to agree. Limited hard points (thanks to unmerited nerfs), no JJs, no ECM, easy and soft CT, AND limited pitch (also nerfed) really put it out of contention. I want so badly for PGI to turn the chassis around because it's one of my favorite designs.

The problem is the mech is old (for MWO). The Catapult is one of the original 4 after all.

Because of that, it has been nerfed repeatedly in the past because it was too good compared to the limited choices of the game at the time.

Now, 2+ years later, tons of mechs, Clans, and overall power creep has changed the landscape of the game. Mechs out now are way more dangerous now. To accommodate that, ideas about what I'd acceptable and what is not has radically changed. Example: Things like dual A/C 20 or Gauss Assaults would never had been acceptable back in closed beta, but now seen as ok due to slow progressive power creep.

The Catapult K2 has not caught up to the new standards of play (even after 2 quirk passes) due to VERY OLD standards it is still being held to from back in closed beta.

Maybe it is old baggage from it being the first heavy dual ballistic mech. Maybe that combined with its A1 cousin running streaks or splats, has created such old hatred that has made the Devs want to get revenge on the chassis or just forget about it it all together.

Who knows, all I know is it isn't fair now. Threads like this and the A1 missile launcher threads are examples of how the MWO population wants the mech to be evaluated by today's standards and not the prejudice of the past.

[Black Arachne]

Galenit, on 13 January 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

Do you know why quirks are made?
The whole quirks system is another bandaid and overcomplicated system like ghostheat for balancing.

Giving mechs weaponslots with crits would make both obsolente, put real heatsinks and heatpenaltys in (less containment, more dissipation) and you can use the old tt balancing.

Or you can try to find a new balance with complicated systems that make balancing nearly impossible.
(Think about all the new parameters you have to count for with quirks and ghostheat..)

Oh, I'm aware of PGI's continued failures - quirks are just another one - especially since we are forced to play the mech based on someone else's vision...this is a HUGE oversight.

[occusoj]

Quote

Clearly I can't build a mech properly after years of playing this game

Never said that.
Just felt free to write some critique regarding the 2PPC/2LPL which has "no issue with heat" and a "PPFLD Punching" PPC/AC10 build.
I tried both of them and everything they do can be done better by either another mech or even a K2. If you enjoy those, by all means go for them. One could even rack up some damage in solo with them. I even managed a ~1300dmg match with a quad-ERLL K2 . Not ecaxtly a good build that is.
The AC20/PPC/3xML is another fun build. Thats fine, but of little relevance for quirking the chassis.

Quote

Anyway, a mech with that CT will never really be competitive, it should be scaled.

QFT.
Totally agree with this, the hitboxes combined with its size are a big problem and will prevent it from going up to top-tier.

[MeiSooHaityu]

occusoj, on 13 January 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Never said that.
Just felt free to write some critique regarding the 2PPC/2LPL which has "no issue with heat" and a "PPFLD Punching" PPC/AC10 build.
I tried both of them and everything they do can be done better by either another mech or even a K2. If you enjoy those, by all means go for them. One could even rack up some damage in solo with them. I even managed a ~1300dmg match with a quad-ERLL K2 . Not ecaxtly a good build that is.
The AC20/PPC/3xML is another fun build. Thats fine, but of little relevance for quirking the chassis.


QFT.
Totally agree with this, the hitboxes combined with its size are a big problem and will prevent it from going up to top-tier.

I was more joking about the mech building more than anything.

I just don't like the dual gauss build in the K2. It's not the charge mechanic as much as it is the fragility of the weapon and the low mounts that force the pilot to expose the CT more to additional fire.

Really, many mechs can do what the K2 can do, but better. That really is the main reason these posts exist. Many can't understand why the K2 is made to do PPCs so poorly when it is THE quint essential PPC mech.

Anyway, even IF it receives some excellent PPC quirks, it will never have the scale or hitboxes to be considered "competitive" (at least in most player's eyes). I font really need a 12 man competitive mech, I need a fun mech to play and do well with. I think the K2 deserves that at least .

[Bishop Steiner]

EvilCow, on 13 January 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

The error was with the initial K2 classification, for some reason it was tier 2 (or 3?) and got very limited quirks, the wrong ones too.

Anyway, a mech with that CT will never really be competitive, it should be scaled.

it was a "Tier 3 Medium Range Skirmisher".

Why? Because that is what Sean wanted it to be.

Stock, in MWO, the K2 should be a "tier 4 Direct Fire Support design".

And that is why it should not be roles based off of anyones opinion, but simply what they were designed to do in the first place. And the quirks should reflect that. Not because I say so, but because that is what the design is meant for.

There are more than enough mechs out there that one doesn't HAVE to use the K2 for their Boom/Gauss build. There's even oddly enough a dedicated ballistics 65 tonner out there, so I hear......

The Catapult should never be a better ballistics platform than the mech of the same weight designed for that role, the Thunderbolt should not outperform the same weight mech designed to carry PPCs, etc.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 January 2015 - 01:12 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gallowglas, on 13 January 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

As someone who always loved the K2 and tried very hard for a long time to make it work, I'm forced to agree. Limited hard points (thanks to unmerited nerfs), no JJs, no ECM, easy and soft CT, AND limited pitch (also nerfed) really put it out of contention. I want so badly for PGI to turn the chassis around because it's one of my favorite designs.

and give me back my macho ppc barrels.

[Bishop Steiner]

occusoj, on 13 January 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Never said that.
Just felt free to write some critique regarding the 2PPC/2LPL which has "no issue with heat" and a "PPFLD Punching" PPC/AC10 build.
I tried both of them and everything they do can be done better by either another mech or even a K2. If you enjoy those, by all means go for them. One could even rack up some damage in solo with them. I even managed a ~1300dmg match with a quad-ERLL K2 . Not ecaxtly a good build that is.
The AC20/PPC/3xML is another fun build. Thats fine, but of little relevance for quirking the chassis.


QFT.
Totally agree with this, the hitboxes combined with its size are a big problem and will prevent it from going up to top-tier.

hence my desire for the CT internal buff akin to the dragon. Wont make it tier 1, but with some good quirks, and maybe geting it's old agility back, would be a possible tier 3. Good enough for me.

[Alexandrix]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 January 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

and give me back my macho ppc barrels.

both of those posts.
god those tiny little ppc's are so lame looking compared to the awesome cannons it used to have