As IS player i want to ask, when do i get to shoot something other than Timber Wolves and Stormcrows? I.e. When are you planning to add some nice quirks to Summoner, Nova and Adder? Also, After the Resistance pack, can we have two Clan packs in row? (only 13 Clan mechs is too few imo) Thank You!
Yeah, let's just make a new mech that only looks like an Urbanmech, but but goes 130kph and can carry 15 tons of armor and dual AC/20s, which it can fire linked with no heat generation, isn't that what everyone wants? Oh, we can't forget the Firestarter torso hit boxes either. That is what is wrong here, people essentially saying "screw lore" and "I want a broken mech so I can feel like a decent played".
Things don't have to be extremes, you know.
But turn that around, and ask: Why does the Urbanmech have to be unique and forced to suck? Nobody complained when _every other IS mech_ was open to customization under the same rules.
I expect the urbie to have a low-ish engine cap, but every IS mech in MWO is _way_ faster than its stock variants. The urbie shouldn't be clipping along at Spider speeds, but players should be allowed to customize it as much as they do their other mechs.
The unfortunate truth of it. Sadly anything role warfare associated (beyond find enemy and kill enemy) tends to get nerfed into the ground. Suppression AC/2s? Ghost heat. That is of course if it is skill based, if it is not (such as LRM suppression) you then have quirks that enhance your abilities to make it even worse...before the ghost heat nerf comes into play.
I will say one thing about earlier iterations of MWO. There was some degree of role warfare.
You had your Siege Mechs like the Awesome or the Stalker with 6 PPCs and once upon a time a skill tree that didn't over inflate threshold and cooling rates. One blast of all 6 or many individual blasts over time. Completely helpless if something came up beside them.
Which led to Guard Mechs, which would protect the Siege Mechs and Missile Boats.
You had the missile boats which were so lumbering and slow that they needed escorts.
You had the spotters who made more money than anyone ever, without ever making a single offensive strike provided they didn't get one-shot-killed. Seriously what other mech could earn 3 million cbills in a single match in closed beta during repair and rearm than a TAG + LRM carrying Commando from doing something like, I don't know... SCOUTING!?
You had the hard hitting brawlers who did well against some things provided you were stupid enough to get within 270 meters.
You had the DPS brawlers who would wipe out the hard hitting brawlers before those became a threat.
You had light hunters,
and assault-hunting lights.
In the thick of it all you had sharp shooters who weren't as powerful as siege mechs but would take out your cockpit.
You had the poptart pains -- that was kinda game breaking but once upon a time they weren't all that good; back in the days of delayed convergence.
You also had suppression mechs like 4 to 6 AC/2 Jagers, 3 AC/2 Centurions and Hunchbacks, 3 AC/2 Victors and so on which kept people from growing enough brass to rush at the same time (allowing your team to take them down in smaller amounts and preventing roflstomps from occurring).
But greatest of all, medium mechs were useful and it didn't require quirks for that to be so.
I will say one thing about earlier iterations of MWO. There was some degree of role warfare.
You had your Siege Mechs like the Awesome or the Stalker with 6 PPCs and once upon a time a skill tree that didn't over inflate threshold and cooling rates. One blast of all 6 or many individual blasts over time. Completely helpless if something came up beside them.
Which led to Guard Mechs, which would protect the Siege Mechs and Missile Boats.
You had the missile boats which were so lumbering and slow that they needed escorts.
You had the spotters who made more money than anyone ever, without ever making a single offensive strike provided they didn't get one-shot-killed. Seriously what other mech could earn 3 million cbills in a single match in closed beta during repair and rearm than a TAG + LRM carrying Commando from doing something like, I don't know... SCOUTING!?
You had the hard hitting brawlers who did well against some things provided you were stupid enough to get within 270 meters.
You had the DPS brawlers who would wipe out the hard hitting brawlers before those became a threat.
You had light hunters,
and assault-hunting lights.
In the thick of it all you had sharp shooters who weren't as powerful as siege mechs but would take out your cockpit.
You had the poptart pains -- that was kinda game breaking but once upon a time they weren't all that good; back in the days of delayed convergence.
You also had suppression mechs like 4 to 6 AC/2 Jagers, 3 AC/2 Centurions and Hunchbacks, 3 AC/2 Victors and so on which kept people from growing enough brass to rush at the same time (allowing your team to take them down in smaller amounts and preventing roflstomps from occurring).
But greatest of all, medium mechs were useful and it didn't require quirks for that to be so.
Indeed.
Now whether man...
or Woman...
We're all nerfed into the ground and forced to play the same 2 to 5 ways. I miss variety. I miss when there was no one true meta. When the "best" meta changed every single day as if it were a fad. Ahh... the perils of the progress of devolution.
Anyway someone send me a message whenever this townhall meeting makes its way to a transcript or youtube; I'm not a twitch person.
Locationnestled in a burlap sack, down in the root cellar
Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:16 PM
Maybe they need to make every mech move like a firestarter and hit like an atlas - if you don't understand that we want an "ineffective" mech to enjoy the game, you don't need to be in our club. Think like role players, or wanting to pick a mech based on visuals alone. It drives me nuts that my commandos haven't gotten the visual update yet - if my 1D is packing a PPC I want to see it!
In my opinion the Urbanmech should bring all its overbearing crappiness, but also an absurdly high bonus to C-Bills and XP.
If you insist on playing the hard way and actually win, then you deserve that.
Role warfare is another potential reason for moving to 1/1/1/1 on the star map modes. I am 99% sure 1/1/1/1 is the way to go and still waiting for good reasons why it isnt.
The unfortunate truth of it. Sadly anything role warfare associated (beyond find enemy and kill enemy) tends to get nerfed into the ground. Suppression AC/2s? Ghost heat. That is of course if it is skill based, if it is not (such as LRM suppression) you then have quirks that enhance your abilities to make it even worse...before the ghost heat nerf comes into play.
I will say one thing about earlier iterations of MWO. There was some degree of role warfare.
You had your Siege Mechs like the Awesome or the Stalker with 6 PPCs and once upon a time a skill tree that didn't over inflate threshold and cooling rates. One blast of all 6 or many individual blasts over time. Completely helpless if something came up beside them.
Which led to Guard Mechs, which would protect the Siege Mechs and Missile Boats.
You had the missile boats which were so lumbering and slow that they needed escorts.
You had the spotters who made more money than anyone ever, without ever making a single offensive strike provided they didn't get one-shot-killed. Seriously what other mech could earn 3 million cbills in a single match in closed beta during repair and rearm than a TAG + LRM carrying Commando from doing something like, I don't know... SCOUTING!?
You had the hard hitting brawlers who did well against some things provided you were stupid enough to get within 270 meters.
You had the DPS brawlers who would wipe out the hard hitting brawlers before those became a threat.
You had light hunters,
and assault-hunting lights.
In the thick of it all you had sharp shooters who weren't as powerful as siege mechs but would take out your cockpit.
You had the poptart pains -- that was kinda game breaking but once upon a time they weren't all that good; back in the days of delayed convergence.
You also had suppression mechs like 4 to 6 AC/2 Jagers, 3 AC/2 Centurions and Hunchbacks, 3 AC/2 Victors and so on which kept people from growing enough brass to rush at the same time (allowing your team to take them down in smaller amounts and preventing roflstomps from occurring).
But greatest of all, medium mechs were useful and it didn't require quirks for that to be so.
Such though is life...
The problem with is that we didn't have them all at the same time.
The problem with is that we didn't have them all at the same time.
A MMO-Like Mechwarrior would have been awesome...
On a massive world, with the Inner Sphere on a side and the Clan on the others. A bit like Planetside 2... Except here, battlemechs are the norm for the battles. You could see Elementals who could be deadly, and also aerospace fighers.... Heck I would pay for that game.
I hope someone cna record this, and put it onto YT, i can't stay up, my daughter got a cold last night and the night was rather much without sleep.
Johnny Z, on 15 January 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:
Role warfare is another potential reason for moving to 1/1/1/1 on the star map modes. I am 99% sure 1/1/1/1 is the way to go and still waiting for good reasons why it isnt.
becaue DWF, TBR , SCR, something
rolewarfare?
its basically: laservomit + gauss, laservomit, laservomit/srmspam, something else.
Locationnestled in a burlap sack, down in the root cellar
Posted 15 January 2015 - 03:41 PM
Someone please tell me that we are going to get an introduction video for the Urbie ! Like a badass slow motion one with music and different camera angles - the whole reason I bought the Gridiron and Ember was because of the videos
A MMO-Like Mechwarrior would have been awesome...
On a massive world, with the Inner Sphere on a side and the Clan on the others. A bit like Planetside 2... Except here, battlemechs are the norm for the battles. You could see Elementals who could be deadly, and also aerospace fighers.... Heck I would pay for that game.
I think a lot of players thought that was exactly how CW was going to go.
I think you may have accidently put on your rose-colored nostalgia glasses.
Koniving, on 15 January 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:
I will say one thing about earlier iterations of MWO. There was some degree of role warfare.
You had your Siege Mechs like the Awesome or the Stalker with 6 PPCs and once upon a time a skill tree that didn't over inflate threshold and cooling rates. One blast of all 6 or many individual blasts over time. Completely helpless if something came up beside them.
Seige – Still here, however 60+ damage alpha strikes have been replaced with 50+ alpha’s but with varying projectile speeds. They are still incredibly effective against slow targets and static defenses.
Koniving, on 15 January 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:
Which led to Guard Mechs, which would protect the Siege Mechs and Missile Boats.
You had the missile boats which were so lumbering and slow that they needed escorts.
Missle Boats – still here, but the 1.8 damage per missile is gone as is the 100 missile alpha strikes. But there still plenty of dangerous LRM launchers out there plus the new and equally annoying LRM5 boats.
Guard Mechs – extinct. The only reason these don’t exist is because the job doesn’t pay. Winning the match has become secondary to earning merits. However the function has been turned into a group role with the advent of the deathball and/or CW.
Koniving, on 15 January 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:
You had the spotters who made more money than anyone ever, without ever making a single offensive strike provided they didn't get one-shot-killed. Seriously what other mech could earn 3 million cbills in a single match in closed beta during repair and rearm than a TAG + LRM carrying Commando from doing something like, I don't know... SCOUTING!?
Scout – still here, and still the best way to make bank. Not the same kind of money as before, but the economy is tough all over.
Koniving, on 15 January 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:
You had the hard hitting brawlers who did well against some things provided you were stupid enough to get within 270 meters. You had the DPS brawlers who would wipe out the hard hitting brawlers before those became a threat.
Brawler (busrt, DPS) – still here, I see King Crabs and Direwolves every day that would testify; the KC rocking AC20’s and the DW’s chain-gunning DPS.
Koniving, on 15 January 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:
You had light hunters, and assault-hunting lights.
Light Hunter – this was never a role, it was a weapon system the “SSRM2 centre-glide” Assault Hunter – still around, although now it known as the “everything hunter” and wolf pack. The role didn’t leave the tactics evolved to defend against it, the deathball, these things still chew up lollygaggers.
Koniving, on 15 January 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:
In the thick of it all you had sharp shooters who weren't as powerful as siege mechs but would take out your cockpit.
You had the poptart pains -- that was kinda game breaking but once upon a time they weren't all that good; back in the days of delayed convergence. You also had suppression mechs like 4 to 6 AC/2 Jagers
Sharpshooters - still around, stand still for 20s and see. The only thing that changed is extra Head internals. Actually the other thing that changes is salvage value, you don’t get paid for undamaged mechs, only the ones that come back in pieces. Poptarts – endangered. This “role” nearly drove me from the game, I don’t miss it one bit, and even now I will still see a few people working it in the light and medium mechs but no more 2000m/s searing death, shredding a ton of armor per hit. Dakka – still here. The AC2 is gone, but AC5 and UCA5 boats have replaced it. I think now that PGI has normalized the AC2 DPS, they could probably ease back on the restrictions.
Koniving, on 15 January 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:
But greatest of all, medium mechs were useful and it didn't require quirks for that to be so.
Medium – Not sure I’d call it a role, and I think you have it backwards. Back in the day I often felt that as a medium pilot, the greatest contribution I made to the team was forcing the enemy to bring a medium mech.
Eventually weight class matching was removed and Mediums disappeared entirely. It wasn’t until the advent of 3/3/3/3 that mediums returned (and the only reason there were effective is because there weren’t 11 assaults on the other team). And with the advent of quirks they have graduated to a level playing field.
Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 15 January 2015 - 04:15 PM.
Agent 0 Fortune, on 15 January 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:
I think you may have accidently put on your rose-colored nostalgia glasses.
Not everything was perfect, but I seriously beg to differ and I've included examples of everything I could.
Spoiler
Quote
Seige – Still here, however 60+ damage alpha strikes have been replaced with 50+ alpha’s but with varying projectile speeds. They are still incredibly effective against slow targets and static defenses.
This isn't considered a role but a mandatory meta requirement today. It is often left unsupported and unprotected as these days it does not require protection, and is so common on the field rather than the indulged rarity it once was.
It was rare because it'd shutdown on the first shot back then, couldn't start back up for more than 3 seconds after firing because that's how long it took to start back up from a basic shutdown and if it had fired a second shot it'd be out of action for more than 12 seconds otherwise it'd instantly explode, thus genuinely needing protection.
Now they shoot in rapid succession and without shutdown.
Also anyone foolish enough to try to do the 50+ alpha is a moron, since the projectile speeds make the attempt pointless in addition to the ghost heat that still does not shutdown the mech. The alphas are now approximately 30 damage for long range siege mechs, made in rapid successions of 2 to 3 volleys in less than 2 seconds with a wait time of another 3 seconds before another cluster of volleys with little to no risk of shutting down.
This is spam city which over time is can often exceed three times more damage in a unit of time compared to the rates of the pre-ghost-heat siege cannons.
This is high risk high damage on a pre-ghost heat siege cannon. A reduction of threshold would also control both this and the above siege cannon, without the arbitrary need of ghost heat.
And that's after the extreme heat threshold / cooldown quirks. Before the skill system, I wouldn't be able to fire again for nearly 8 seconds after doing this once... or I'd self destruct or in the best case scenario destroy my own weapons and heatsinks rather than randomly damage my actual mech. Losing heatsinks and weapons is horrifically bad for what I'm doing. Getting minor damage, absolutely meaningless. The pinpoint front loaded damage issue? Wouldn't be bad if delayed convergence was still in.
What changed it to get to the state of ghost heat aside from the above? Quite simply, the "Skill" tree. 20% more threshold on already high thresholds? 15% more cooling that between 10 and 17 DHS will give you higher than 0.2/sec cooling rates per DHS (despite starting pre-skill tree as 0.14/sec for every DHS after the 10 in the engine, assuming you get that many)? Why? Why so much? Why so high? No wonder there's ghost heat.
Quote
Missle Boats – still here, but the 1.8 damage per missile is gone as is the 100 missile alpha strikes. But there still plenty of dangerous LRM launchers out there plus the new and equally annoying LRM5 boats.
At the time you could at best lob 80 LRM to 90 LRMs at a single volley and if you could, somehow, manage to do this twice in a row you would shut down. Even after shutdown, if by some miracle you survived doing this foolish thing and tried to do it for the third time after booting back up, it would lead to a self-destruct (since ammo cooked with heat, causing you to go boom; this was before the override and the first revamp to the heat system.
In between volleys of rapid death, you would have large amounts of time to go from cover to cover, to advance, flank, intercept and destroy these units. Now, there is no pause, no stop, no delay, no brief respite, no heat-caused issues preventing spam... It's just...endless... relentless...spam. In typing this paragraph, approximately 400,000 missiles have been fired in MWO and it didn't even take me a minute.
Old LRMs: 1.8 damage.
Old LRMs: 1.4 damage, before the missile changes. You didn't fire LRMs all at once because it was 1) stupid to put it all into one blast and 2) the spam cut off the time in between. But very few people knew this, so they still did alpha strikes that allowed you to wipe them out easily. The problem here is that the time to fire the next volley was reduced by over 1 second compared to the original LRMs, for every single launcher.
Notice the spread, notice the volley movement. These would kill you by legs, strip off arms, etc. These aren't CT only weapons.
Now here they are.
"I can't see!"
"Non-stop."
Comparing post-ghost heat LRMs with a build made before them. Fire them all, shut down in two volleys. So shutdown in 180 missiles with a spread two Atlases wide. Now? Shutdown in 330 missiles or more with a spread as narrow as the CT of a Dragon without Artemis. Why? Forced chain fire -- which chain fire gives you more time to cool. With so many launchers it gives you lots of constant fire time. Top this with the fact that PGI made a system where more missiles fired at once = more spread... and then make firing more than 40 missiles at once impossible -- players remove all the would-be spread they would have suffered.
Quote
Guard Mechs – extinct. The only reason these don’t exist is because the job doesn’t pay. Winning the match has become secondary to earning merits. However the function has been turned into a group role with the advent of the deathball and/or CW.
They existed before the job paid well. And were quite valuable, this is because of the true value of the other units who usually drowned in debt running their builds to carry the game to its necessary victory. This is because victory paid well, no matter how it was achieved, and losses did not.
Quote
Scout – still here, and still the best way to make bank. Not the same kind of money as before, but the economy is tough all over.
True. Granted the money of the past was getting tag bonuses for every LRM ever fired, spot bonuses for every LRM ever fired at your target, and combing these with your own LRMs as well as the team's.
Quote
Brawler (burst, DPS) – still here, I see King Crabs and Direwolves every day that would testify; the KC rocking AC20’s and the DW’s chain-gunning DPS.
This is true. But what happened to the pre-quirk Dragons, Hunchbacks, etc? DPS SPL build Hunchbacks? DPS mixed weapon builds? Etc? Clan DPS builds only exist because they are forced. Anything that can rock twin AC/20s will so yes, these will always exist.
Quote
Light Hunter – this was never a role, it was a weapon system the “SSRM2 centre-glide”
You mean "This?"
Miss 75% of the time CT-seeking Streaks where you had to keep your distance from the enemy and ride the border of 200 and 270 meters to have any chance of hitting your enemy due to realistic missile physics?
Compared to the current streaks that never miss, defy the laws of physics, and will always hit you somewhere?
It's... hypnotizing. You know when that kind of Streak began to exist alongside modules, we had Streaks that could be shot 180 degrees behind you and still hit their targets? There was no actual problem with the original streak; there was and is a problem with the current streak that still exists except now it has arbitrarily forced targeting on other limbs.
Quote
Assault Hunter – still around, although now it known as the “everything hunter” and wolf pack. The role didn’t leave the tactics evolved to defend against it, the deathball, these things still chew up lollygaggers.
Nah, I was referring more to light and medium mechs whose sole design concept was to take on assault mechs, typically by drop kicking them followed by a heavily piercing twin PPC or AC/20 or gauss rifle, which was their sole and exclusive armament. Though I suppose 3-L Murders do count in their own right.
I was also referring to a mech like this.
Whose sole purpose was to sneak up on the 6 PPC Stalker and take it out before it could take out the team.
Quote
Sharpshooters - still around, stand still for 20s and see. The only thing that changed is extra Head internals. Actually the other thing that changes is salvage value, you don’t get paid for undamaged mechs, only the ones that come back in pieces.
Even with extra head internals, these guys still existed. They more or less stopped when Gauss Rifles required a charge up. Which I do confess was a step in the right direction -- if it came with similar things to address all high damage pinpoint FLD weapons. What really changed is that every new mech has a smaller and smaller head hitbox. Take for instance the Hunchback's entire head (front and back) is the cockpit. But the Hellbringer? It's a dot, a literal dot and NOT even on the head! It's below the cockpit.
Quote
Poptarts – endangered. This “role” nearly drove me from the game, I don’t miss it one bit, and even now I will still see a few people working it in the light and medium mechs but no more 2000m/s searing death, shredding a ton of armor per hit.
Never would have been a problem if not for the removal of delayed convergence.
Warning animated gifs of delayed convergence.
Spoiler
Sudden dual-rapid-change in convergence alignment causes this extreme convergence alignment error.
The lasers here fired at a diagonal toward me are aligned for a far away target, and have to "narrow-beam" as the intended alignment is closer and closer to the source.
Quote
Dakka – still here. The AC2 is gone, but AC5 and UCA5 boats have replaced it. I think now that PGI has normalized the AC2 DPS, they could probably ease back on the restrictions.
I agree they can ease back the restrictions. The two firing rates you will see demonstrated here are Macro (the slower) and standard (the faster).
The super fast rates you see are the AC/2 standard firing rates. We used macros to sloooooooooooow that doggy down to make the heat manageable. So for doing that we get punished with ghost heat, meanwhile...
We are now forced into builds like this.
Which are far deadlier, and suppress no one, making this kind of suppression exclusive to the Clans. And people laugh at those, because that Dakka has the solution we needed from the beginning. Diffuse FLD by spreading the damage out into several shots, akin to the actual lore&fluff-friendly autocannons!
Quote
Medium – Not sure I’d call it a role, and I think you have it backwards. Back in the day I often felt that as a medium pilot, greatest contribution I made to the team was forcing the enemy to bring a medium mech.
Eventually weight class matching was removed and Mediums disappeared entirely. It wasn’t until the advent of 3/3/3/3 that mediums returned (and the only reason there were effective is because there weren’t 11 assaults on the other team). And with the advent of quirks they have graduated to a level playing field.
Then you really weren't good at contributing in your mediums. I, on the other hand, excelled at mediums. For example there was the Turtleback, which would wear high rear armor (and who could resist shooting the rear?) and 'flash' it to enemies while the weapons recharge. Fire AC/20 + 3 SPL. Twist immediately, let them waste their ammo on your back. Ready weapons, twist, fire, twist away. Repeat, virtually every assault died in seconds. Heavies? Pretty damn slow, often slower than mediums. Mediums about 64.8 kph. Not living long enough? Try the Centurion Shield Charge. Twist right, hook your AC under the shield. Pop LRM door open. Bombard with LRMs while soaking damage into the shield. If fire is too spread, close shield doors (otherwise let the shield soak it). Once close center torso and immediately fire SRM-6 + lasers + AC. Relish in an easy kill.
Then again I did this with a twin LPL, twin SRM-2 (Not Streak) Stalker without unlocks.
Of course another HUGE thing to remember is that Armlock did not exist. The only way to get precision aiming was by holding left CTRL and using your Arms Exclusively. The 6 PPC Stalkers were a laughing stock of a role before this time.
Also, back in the day a fight like this was actually common place.
Notice, no arm lock, lots of spread, no massive pinpoint FLD.
So much fun. Yes, those days had their problems. But they were more technical problems like hit registration or PGI's use of a splash damage mechanic (not to be confused with the ER PPC damage transfer mechanic which has absolutely nothing to do script-wise with splash at all) than horrifically broken balance problems.
I wish I could find one with the old, delayed, build-up popcorn ammo explosions. Rawr. Those were great.
LocationSitting on a 12x multiplier and voting for Terra Therma
Posted 15 January 2015 - 05:43 PM
Johnny Z, on 15 January 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:
Role warfare is another potential reason for moving to 1/1/1/1 on the star map modes. I am 99% sure 1/1/1/1 is the way to go and still waiting for good reasons why it isnt.
How about the same reason that is always brought up. Tonnage limits promote diversity by providing additional value to lower tonnage mechs.
I'm still waiting for good reasons why that aint so.
5
MikeBend, on 13 January 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:
