1126 replies to this topic

[topgun505]

Yes. You can quirk mechs or weapons all you want but until the issue of convergence is addressed, such quirks will be a band aid (an insufficient one) at best.

[Galenit]

Mamonar, on 20 January 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

My propostition how to resolve convergence:

1. Torso mounted weapons do not converge. Instead they have fixed convergence set at weapons optimum range. (e.g.: ML converge at 270m, LL at 450m, SL at 135m)How this helps: This means it makes more sense to use Medium and Small Lasers at close ranges, because torso mounted Large Lasers won’t be able to do pinpoint dmg at close ranges.

2. Arms converge on locked target, otherwise set to optimum range of the weapon with the longest range. Arms need time to converge.

Lets take 2 lasers (all the same) in the torso and each arm.

Torso dont convergence, you need 10 hsr calls for a laser, thats 20 calls for hsr for the 2 lasers in the torso.

Arms convergence, you need 1 convergence call every 0.1 sec.
The weapons in the arms are the same in this example, you need 10 hsr calls for each arm.

With this example we have 40 hsr calls for every shot and 1 convergence call for every 0.1 seconds, thats more then double the hsr calls you need as now.
Now mix the weapons and you get expotential more calls you have to manage.

I think a real convergence simulation will not come with this game,
the calls you need are to much to handle in the current situation.

A single mech would need more calls with some weapons then 24 mechs would need,
if you put hsr, recoil, different convergence time for different weapons, dot weapons and movement in it,
you get expotential more calls then the system we have.

Maybe someone would find a solution for it (and make his doctor in math),
until this, i would be fine with a dynamic cof system.

Edited by Galenit, 20 January 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Pika, on 20 January 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

How about instead of removing it, we add a considerably larger time delay?

Look at something like World of Tanks (I know, I'm sorry, don't shank me) and take something similar to their cone of fire system, but for all the weapons. Rather than a CoF, more of a "All your guns will hit randomly in this area" until we've been stood still or below a certain speed threshold or something. We can speed this convergence up with the advanced skill, which is what it's SUPPOSED to do now, but seems to do nothing.

I would also like to see the 'Mech's torso get spun around like in the old MW3/4 days too along with this.

Oh dear god no, see, WoT is an example of a CoF overdone.......

WoT's CoF is the kind of CoF that makes players hate Cof to begin with. You catch a tank at 200m, hes fully inside your reticule, you wait, you aim, 132% crew, you wait, and KAPOW!!!!!!! and your shell flies off and hits the rock 30m to the left of the target and slightly below....leaving you sitting there wondering, how in the holy goddamn hell did I miss that!!?

Oh ffs, WoT needs to be left out of any worthwhile mechanic comparisons. Everything they do is about making you frustrated, making the game random and ********. I absolutely despise just short of everything about WoT, the less WoT the better.

No, the CoF we need is more like Planetside 2, it is there, but with proper fire control, bursting, aiming, waiting for good shots and just all in all, the Cof can all but be cancelled. Only times you notice it is when you either fire on the move, fire at range, or fire to long and dont realize it.

Translate that to MWO, if you fire 1 weapon at a time every half second or so, you should notice next to no CoF. that is you aiming, controlled fire as you should be. Now if you wanna go a little over board you can stack it up to 2-3 weapons. At this point, your putting down instead of 3-6 round bursts from Planetside, this would be akin to a 12-15 round burst. You start to notice your shots not really going where you want them, but still in the general area of the target.

If you go over board, as in fire 4+ weapons, its like just going full auto for 50 rounds. You'll notice your shots not really landing anywhere near the target. Only way this fire mode is accurate is when you are kissing the target, in MWO sub 100m. Its you just going crazy and trying to fire just to get fire on target. Its not accurate, its not disciplined, its hectic and haphazard....

I wont shank you for mentioning a WoT style CoF, I will just step on your head with my Warhawk's foot......

[Haipyng]

This really comes down to how much of a sim does PGI want to make out of MWO. The answer in many places has been "not too much". Pure flight sims have a small but very dedicated following. They are however not very easy to master and as in real life, not very forgiving. Convergence is another aspect of creating a mech sim. So many things were simplified and reduced from 'Beta' to better appeal to a larger player base in order to fund development. They have to to continue development. As much as we may want a real mech sim, it just wouldn't play to a large enough base to fund it.

We are also pretty far into development at this time to go back and revisit weapon convergence. There are many more things I'd rather see done before that.

[Glythe]

Convergence has been a really big problem for the game for a long time now and I'd love to see it gone. It would make the game so much more interesting to see lasers firing at the enemy based on their position on the mech.

However one serious problem is that it would make clan mechs a lot more powerful as most of their weapons are arm mounted.

[occusoj]

In a perfect world Id like to see instant pp convergence gone. Weapons should take some time to adjust for a new convergence points. Arms/mech movement as well as heavy weapons recoil should affect convergence too.

In reality, all it takes is a look at hitregs current state and the many fails of PGI attempting to fix it in order to know what mayhem adding convergence mechanisms more complex than "instant" would cause.

IMHO, hats one of those aspects where MWO is broken beyond repair. At least with the current combination of devs and engine.

[1453 R]

What this thread, and all other convergence threads, boil down to is, really, a bunch of people arguing for their preferred method of:

"This is how I want to make sure nobody ever hits:

1.) what they aim at
2.) anything more than 150 meters away from their 'Mech
3.) lights
4.) with autocannons

...ever again."

Here's the problem with all these convergence systems trying to force players to sign blood contracts with Lucifer, or force them to perform arcane rituals under the full moon, in order to hit what they aim at. Players in this game like hitting and dislike missing. They will find a way to hit what they aim at no matter how much you try and convince them that hitting what they aim at is unrealistic and against BattleTech lore. Remove convergence in favor of fixed everything, or some ridiculous cone-of-fire effect where the entire screen is your crosshair at five hundred meters? I guarantee you that the new meta will be SRM splat. Get right up in their faces, point-blank, and let 'em have it with SRMs.

How're you going to stop them, after all? SRM splat is competitive now, when splat 'Mechs have to actually fear being hit from more than 150 meters away. Remove a player's ability to hit a target beyond 150 meters and all you do is force fights into occurring under 150 meters. Number of missile hardpoints becomes the new determinant of Good vs. Bad, not placement of ballistic/energy hardpoints. And the forums erupt in screams of rage that the Evil SRM Meta is ruining their fun.

People, please realize. You are never going to get rid of players' desire to kill their enemies as quickly and effectively as possible. You are never going to get rid of the fact that bracketed builds are bad, were bad in TT and will remain bad in MWO. You are never going to get rid of the fact that making the single most fundamental interaction between players in this game - that is, the act of aiming and shooting at enemy pilots - sketchy, unpredictable, and unreliable will render your game effectively unplayable.

Stop. Please. There are many things far more worthy of attention than breaking aim.

[Widowmaker1981]

1453 R, on 20 January 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

What this thread, and all other convergence threads, boil down to is, really, a bunch of people arguing for their preferred method of:

"This is how I want to make sure nobody ever hits:

1.) what they aim at
2.) anything more than 150 meters away from their 'Mech
3.) lights
4.) with autocannons

...ever again."

Here's the problem with all these convergence systems trying to force players to sign blood contracts with Lucifer, or force them to perform arcane rituals under the full moon, in order to hit what they aim at. Players in this game like hitting and dislike missing. They will find a way to hit what they aim at no matter how much you try and convince them that hitting what they aim at is unrealistic and against BattleTech lore. Remove convergence in favor of fixed everything, or some ridiculous cone-of-fire effect where the entire screen is your crosshair at five hundred meters? I guarantee you that the new meta will be SRM splat. Get right up in their faces, point-blank, and let 'em have it with SRMs.

How're you going to stop them, after all? SRM splat is competitive now, when splat 'Mechs have to actually fear being hit from more than 150 meters away. Remove a player's ability to hit a target beyond 150 meters and all you do is force fights into occurring under 150 meters. Number of missile hardpoints becomes the new determinant of Good vs. Bad, not placement of ballistic/energy hardpoints. And the forums erupt in screams of rage that the Evil SRM Meta is ruining their fun.

People, please realize. You are never going to get rid of players' desire to kill their enemies as quickly and effectively as possible. You are never going to get rid of the fact that bracketed builds are bad, were bad in TT and will remain bad in MWO. You are never going to get rid of the fact that making the single most fundamental interaction between players in this game - that is, the act of aiming and shooting at enemy pilots - sketchy, unpredictable, and unreliable will render your game effectively unplayable.

Stop. Please. There are many things far more worthy of attention than breaking aim.

Yep. This.

[Wintermuted]

IMO, all your weapons should be converged, at the max range, on your reticle when aimed at "infinity". As your reticle targets within range of a weapon, there should be a convergence delay as your weapons focus at the range. Going from max range to 100m is going to take longer then 400m to 100m, something along the lines of CONVERGENCEDELAY = range change / 10m * .01 second. Firing your weapons during this time will fire them on the 'convergence arc' as your weapons align to the new range under your reticle.

Not moving and neither is your target? Perfect convergence pretty quickly. Your moving and so is your target? Convergence is going to be a bit of an issue, especially faster moving targets.

So, is the convergence perk a lie?!

[Widowmaker1981]

Wintermuted, on 20 January 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

IMO, all your weapons should be converged, at the max range, on your reticle when aimed at "infinity". As your reticle targets within range of a weapon, there should be a convergence delay as your weapons focus at the range. Going from max range to 100m is going to take longer then 400m to 100m, something along the lines of CONVERGENCEDELAY = range change / 10m * .01 second. Firing your weapons during this time will fire them on the 'convergence arc' as your weapons align to the new range under your reticle.

Not moving and neither is your target? Perfect convergence pretty quickly. Your moving and so is your target? Convergence is going to be a bit of an issue, especially faster moving targets.

So, is the convergence perk a lie?!

Reading the thread is a lie...

As has been said many times in this thread and elsewhere, that is how it used to be in open beta, before HSR (host state rewind) was added, but the delayed convergence system wont work with HSR for game engine/coding reasons (im not a developer, so i take PGIs word for it).

Its HSR OR Delayed convergence. cant have both.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 20 January 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

snip

Get rid of it?

No.

Return it to how it was in CB, when the skill tree still meant something? Yes. The delayed convergence was one of my favorite features in CB (along with heat effects for riding the scale, like ammo explosions for staying over 80% for prolonged periods).

If you took a second to settle your aim, perfect convergence. You switch to a charging light with a snap shot, BOOF!!! Screwed up aim! Of course....with the current state of Lights..... that might cause more QQ.

Anyhow, yes to delayed convergence, but no to this "We are in WWI or II and our guns just point straight ahead" stuff some people want.

[Kraegor]

The Wakelord, on 20 January 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

1) it is a 1,000 years in the future, and they can probably stick tiny motors on a gun given they have made billions of tiny motors for pseduo-muscles on our walking tanks.

I counter this with the arguements of:

1. We have no rear view mirrors 1000 years in the future. No rear view cameras, nothing. Not even a stick coming from our head with a mirror on it.
2. Night Vision and Thermal Vision have not surpassed the Vietnam War Era in over a 1000 years.
3. AC/20 and other guns only go about 20% faster than Civil War Era round-shot cannons in feet per second.
4. Our heads up display offers no real information, and the cockpits look like circa 1992.
5. Our combat drones to not fly around, they just hover. (This is equal to a $20 mini RC drone you can buy in stores now).
6. This list is getting too exhaustive.. so I am going to leave the rest to imagination.

So as you can see, the "Future" argument never works.

[Axeface]

I for one want accuracy dropped substantially. Accuracy should depend on if you are walking or running, or jumping etc.
They would need to be careful not to encourage camping though, how to do that I'll leave up to pgi.

If you look at the animations for the arms on mechs, you can see a definate wobble and drop when legs hit the floor - weapons should follow these animations - does that mean cone of fire? Nope. Does that meqan you could learn to fire your weapons in-time with a mech anims to be more accurate? Hell yes.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Axeface, on 20 January 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

I for one want accuracy dropped substantially. Accuracy should depend on if you are walking or running, or jumping etc.
They would need to be careful not to encourage camping though, how to do that I'll leave up to pgi.

If you look at the animations for the arms on mechs, you can see a definate wobble and drop when legs hit the floor - weapons should follow these animations - does that mean cone of fire? Nope. Does that meqan you could learn to fire your weapons in-time with a mech anims to be more accurate? Hell yes.

as in have the reticule shake around as we walk? that could be amusing to try. That surely would up the sim factor and increase the difficulty of firing on the move.

[Axeface]

LordKnightFandragon, on 20 January 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

as in have the reticule shake around as we walk? that could be amusing to try. That surely would up the sim factor and increase the difficulty of firing on the move.

Well, really, we'd need 3 reticules. 1 for each arm and one for torso mounts. Could use the current 2 reticule system with movement though yeh., they would need to make the reticule movement in sync with the mechs limbs though.

Edited by Axeface, 20 January 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[Almond Brown]

operatorZ, on 20 January 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

Yes, like just about every shooter ever made in the modern age....add some goddam f*cking dynamics that force a little skill.... for once. Make players make the choice in their heads to take that shot or wait for a better opportunity, rather then just spamming the fire button.....

That is easily accomplished. Any "Alpha Strike" gets a 300% heat Spike and an auto, min. 5s - 10s shutdown. If the Heat causes a prolonged Shutdown due to excess Heat generated, then you stay down that long.

The reason PP is kinda sour is the amount of damage that can be delivered in 1 trigger pull, and in many cases, it is ridiculously repeatable.

BattleMechs are notoriously HOT machine when under combat stress. MWO does not yet provide
that level of realism yet. Many have stated they want debilitating circumstances for Heat but it never gets enough traction by the Community.

Heat should be the second biggest killer of BattleMechs in MWO. It isn't and that is a sad testament to how players want to play. Run and Gun with huge damage numbers but please leave out the consequences, thanks.

Of we could get PGI to increase the HEAT that, start with the Alpha Trigger, generated when in combat, and I mean a lot, 2 things would happen.

1) Less Alpha's would be seen, or at least less Alpha's in a row. Most Mechs can survive 1 blast unless already damaged. If they can't, perhaps more armor may in order.

2) For those who just gotta have that Alpha build, they will have to build better (use more space for non-weapon based stuff) to avoid the penalty or suffer the consequences. (which we see now but not near enough)

Set it up so when the ALPHA button is triggered, you either have already, or you should prepare for the consequences.

[Gyrok]

Feetwet, on 20 January 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

I like how you equate making things more realistic with putting on kid gloves.

S

Want to know the approximate accuracy of an M1 abrams on the move @ 100 km/h?

Inside a 24" radius at 2400 m.

So, do you honestly think a mech standing still at 800m could not hit you in the head with a weapon that is 1040 years in the future with advanced future tech targeting systems?

Edited by Gyrok, 20 January 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[Celthora]

I don't agree with you. Lasers have duration in Mwo, heavier ones have longer duration. Still using convergence, its almost impossible to hit moving target from one point with your laser group; unless your target Dc'ed or Afk. Most of the time damage splits.

However, remember MW4. I was loading 5 LL to my 100 tons mech, make 1 shot and CT critical, another shot and target destroyed. Other parts are not even scratched. Obviously we don't have such an issue in Mwo. It still needs skill to transfer all damage to one point. If you are playing standing, u ll die anyway.

[RetroActive]

Please no. You think people complain about invincible lights now? Can you imagine how hard it would be to kill a light if there were no convergence?

I like hitting what I'm aiming at, thanks.

Stefka Kerensky, on 20 January 2015 - 02:11 AM, said:

Yes.
High pinpoint has become ridicolus and lowered TTK to much.

Please solve convergence issue, OR, let alpha make 40-50 dmg max.

Please point me in the direction of a setup that can deliver more than 50 pinpoint damage.

[Impossible Wasabi]

1453 R, on 20 January 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

What this thread, and all other convergence threads, boil down to is, really, a bunch of people arguing for their preferred method of:

"This is how I want to make sure nobody ever hits:

1.) what they aim at
2.) anything more than 150 meters away from their 'Mech
3.) lights
4.) with autocannons

...ever again."

Here's the problem with all these convergence systems trying to force players to sign blood contracts with Lucifer, or force them to perform arcane rituals under the full moon, in order to hit what they aim at. Players in this game like hitting and dislike missing. They will find a way to hit what they aim at no matter how much you try and convince them that hitting what they aim at is unrealistic and against BattleTech lore. Remove convergence in favor of fixed everything, or some ridiculous cone-of-fire effect where the entire screen is your crosshair at five hundred meters? I guarantee you that the new meta will be SRM splat. Get right up in their faces, point-blank, and let 'em have it with SRMs.

How're you going to stop them, after all? SRM splat is competitive now, when splat 'Mechs have to actually fear being hit from more than 150 meters away. Remove a player's ability to hit a target beyond 150 meters and all you do is force fights into occurring under 150 meters. Number of missile hardpoints becomes the new determinant of Good vs. Bad, not placement of ballistic/energy hardpoints. And the forums erupt in screams of rage that the Evil SRM Meta is ruining their fun.

People, please realize. You are never going to get rid of players' desire to kill their enemies as quickly and effectively as possible. You are never going to get rid of the fact that bracketed builds are bad, were bad in TT and will remain bad in MWO. You are never going to get rid of the fact that making the single most fundamental interaction between players in this game - that is, the act of aiming and shooting at enemy pilots - sketchy, unpredictable, and unreliable will render your game effectively unplayable.

Stop. Please. There are many things far more worthy of attention than breaking aim.

The Space Pope finds this to be a most wise post.