1126 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

pwnface, on 20 January 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

Please no. I want to play a shooter not roll digital dice.

They're not proposing RNG. They're proposing fixed aim points on torso's that require you to shift your reticle to fire weapons at the same spot, instead of all torso weapons automatically aiming at the same place, at every range.

[Galenit]

Mudhutwarrior, on 20 January 2015 - 03:47 AM, said:

Okay I get the argument but as of yet no one has answered will it make the coding easier or harder. So many issues with hit registration my concern is will it make it better or worse.

Answer that question and I will decide then.

Convergence would be better and suit the "thinking man" thing someone some time sayed, but it would **** up hitreg.
You need a lot more of overhead and computing time to calculate it.
A mech with 8 weapons would need 8 times the calculations for hsr and the calculations for the convergence system.

COF would need a lot less bandwidth and calculations and be around the same resources needing as its now.

I would prever the convergence thing, but its not realistic that they could make a convergence system that works and that works with hsr. COF is the solution we would get, if they desiced to do something.

[Tombstoner]

operatorZ, on 20 January 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

but a CoF could still affect lasers do to mech movement i.e the cross hairs are not steady

basically if your mechs body is moved due to:

Being hit

Firing

Moving

Collisions

Then this affects the accuracy of your weapons...all weapons...including lasers, I am not talking a lot here but just enough to make that long 1000m shot 50/50 if your moving and make that single component alpha pretty difficult to hit with all weapons overall.

Anyone who advocates for a COF IMO would accept some level of COF for all direct fired weapons. the exception being lasers. i think they should have a COF for the same reasons other weapons. they should however be the least affected by COF. beam duration being the balance element.

Pin point convergence/accuracy/precision or what every you call it is set To Harry Potter levels. Add a COF and set the PPC to a moderate level of spread at 50% max range and you disconnect the ppc gauss combo. Something the charge delay hasn't stopped. it only made the gauss harder to use correctly or macro.

Pin point damage + high damage alphas lead to low TTK's. i think this is bad for the game and its only going to get worse with new tech and mechs that alter the meta......

[Coolant]

MW4:Mercs had convergence, so anything that Mercs had is just dandy with me

[Gyrok]

Widowmaker1981, on 20 January 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

It is for some people who seem to think that a 1.2 second laser burst is not something you can spread over your mechs torsos (the only realistic large non spread alphas are laservomit clans)

FTFY.

[rant]

Only Clan Gauss, and the occasional ERPPC are PP FLD for clans. So if you fight against clans and do not torso twist, you are screwing yourself over and deserve to take a laser vomit alpha to the chest for full burn while you try to line up your PPC lolpha from the 9S you are terrible at piloting.

[/rant]

EDIT: I am aware you know this, but that was aimed at anyone who does not understand the essence of the point.

Tombstoner, on 20 January 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

Anyone who advocates for a COF IMO would accept some level of COF for all direct fired weapons. the exception being lasers. i think they should have a COF for the same reasons other weapons. they should however be the least affected by COF. beam duration being the balance element.

Pin point convergence/accuracy/precision or what every you call it is set To Harry Potter levels. Add a COF and set the PPC to a moderate level of spread at 50% max range and you disconnect the ppc gauss combo. Something the charge delay hasn't stopped. it only made the gauss harder to use correctly or macro.

Pin point damage + high damage alphas lead to low TTK's. i think this is bad for the game and its only going to get worse with new tech and mechs that alter the meta......

What next? They give our mechs my little pony mounts, and rename ballistics hugs, and rename PPCs kisses, and then the end of the match comes when everyone gets to theta to sing Kumbaya?

Edited by Gyrok, 20 January 2015 - 07:16 AM.

[Macksheen]

I wouldn't mind getting rid of PERFECT convergence. Bit more of a slight time delay in syncing everything, esp. when moving.

I also wouldn't mind (instead) introducing a slight variable to both beam duration and projectile speed ... dynamic each shot, +/- one to three percent maybe. Enough to maybe help spread a wee bit, but not affecting two stationary targets at all.

[Utilyan]

With frame rates like mine I'm lucky I even hit a mech let alone pick a spot where I want to hit it.


Folks against the pinpoint alpha = folks who invented ghost heat = folks who nerfed the pop tarts.


Who has a constant problem getting head shot with pin point alphas to the head?

Not me.


There is a kind of player who will not own up to his lack of skill. Sure we can get rid of convergence.......still not going to help your sorry ass.

It might help LURM/STREAK man who is not a twitch/fps player who forced himself because he likes Battletech.

[El Bandito]

Delayed convergence should be the most ideal of the bunch, as in lore the weapons need time to align the weapons. However, I do not have enough confidence in PGI to pull it off, with the HSR and hit-reg borked up as is. We need the next best thing.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Please stop comparing this game to CoD or Battlefield. I've explained why it is a bit different. Ok, let's say it again. Ballistics and PPCs (the number one driver of this conversation and the reason this thread exists), is a single shot weapon. Single shot weapons in games hit where you fire them. CoD and Battlefield's single shot weapons (sniper rifles) don't randomly shoot within a cone. If they did, sniper rifles would be crap and no one would use them. Cone of fire in those games are rapid fire weapons where burst affects aim (like burst rifle assault rifles, MGs, etc...). That is an intuitive mechanic. Zooming in MWO, lining up a crosshair on an enemies CT, and firing an ERPPC at 800m only to watch it miss and whizz by his head does not seem like an intuitive mechanic. Why does a long range shot miss where I pointed it? Just because doesn't feel natural.

Doesn't matter anyway. This conversation isn't going to change the game for better or for worse regardless. PGI has they game implemented the way they like it, do this is all hypothetical banter anyway I suppose.

[Galenit]

Ghost Badger, on 20 January 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

They're not proposing RNG. They're proposing fixed aim points on torso's that require you to shift your reticle to fire weapons at the same spot, instead of all torso weapons automatically aiming at the same place, at every range.

Convergence would count your movement and the number of weapons and the type of weapons in the convergence.
You would still hit the same pixel but you have to stand still and have to wait a moment for your weapons to convergence on the point to aim for.

Alternative, you dont have real convergence, but you have a cof that increases by the same parameters used for convergence, this system would have some random elements.

The difference?
Convergence would **** up the hsr and the servers would not be enough, a single mech with 10 weapons would need as much resources then 12 mechs with a cof system.

[Ryoko Kombat]

For what a kind sake on Earth this Bettletech Arcade must not have convergence?

[Fate 6]

Overall it's just a bad idea. With hitreg as bad as it is, imagine trying to kill a light when you can't even get your weapons to converge. Mechs that can mount mostly torso weapons are already generally better than other mechs (Banshee vs Atlas).

[Feetwet]

Also, if you don't like the RNG of the cone of fire mechanic. I would advocate drastically increasing recticle(sp?) movement while your mech is on the move. I'm not saying screen shake, recticle movement. If you can pull the trigger at the precise time with all of that sway then you hit what you aim at.

Gyrok, on 20 January 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

What next? They give our mechs my little pony mounts, and rename ballistics hugs, and rename PPCs kisses, and then the end of the match comes when everyone gets to theta to sing Kumbaya?

I like how you equate making things more realistic with putting on kid gloves.

S

[Apocryph0n]

Okay, since you apparently get called a CoD *** (I never played any CoD btw ) for bringing up the idea of CoF or no Convergence for DISCUSSION, let me put it this way:

Right now you hit the exact pixel you point your mouse at. Your weapons insta-converge. If one of the both go you solve a lot of problems.

How is it hard-mode or pro to hit something by just moving your mouse over it? Hell, I got an accuracy with all sorts of clan lasers (long ass beam duration) of between 80 and 95% which is just not right. I literally get into my Staredown-Timber and LaserDrill/vomit myself through a Direwolfs side torso in seconds. Edit: because it is super simple to keep 4 arm lasers and the torso mounted ones on the exact same pixel)

I personally think that the whole "click here to apply instant hurt" and "keep your mouse over this big walking piece of steel to lay down the lazorz" has pretty much no skill involved AND is absolutely against both TT rules (which is okay, it's a shooter) but also against lore.

Let's just pick up the convergence thing: The first guy to explain to me, how those magic Torso mounts should work gets a cookie.

Hint: They shouldn't/don't, as they are fixed weapons. It would actually force you to make a decision: put weapons in the arms for E-Z-Aiming and precision as you have it right now or protect your weapons better but have them shoot out of said torso in a straight line. Not have weapons that magically converge whereever with the aid of fairy dust and rainbows.


Also I never said: We need CoF, I just threw it in the room for discussion. I actually prefer the removal of convergence for Torso mounted stuff. In exchange we need no ghost heat and can probably even remove the silly doubled armor values we got (BECAUSE hitting stuff is so easy in MW:O

On top of that we are closer to lore (to what Battletech should be, there's stupid stuff like Titanfall for everyone who does not give a damn about lore at all ) and it takes some pretty rad skills to master all your mounted weapons.

Arms are pretty much meaningless on most mechs right now, except for fending off lights and in the odd case that your main hardpoints are in your arms (Gargoyle e.g.). On most other things people tend to use one or two arms as a shield and cram their main weaponry into the torsos (Hellbringer, 9S, 5SS to some degree, even Timbers shove as much as they can in the CT and STs)

I am probably the last guy to want this game to be more arcade than it already is and having to adapt to fixed torso weapons would certainly add to the complexity, immersion and skill required to truly shine at this game.

In the end we won't get either of the 2 possibilities anyways, so there's that.

Edit: Hitreg being bad should not mean we have to design fancy game mechanics around that, that means we should fix hitreg.

Edited by Apocryph0n, 20 January 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[Wolfwood592]

I personally like the idea. I do not think you will EVER get past the player pool who will cry cry cry all the way home. It has already started in this post.

I think making the weapons more "realistic" so to speak would be pretty awesome. The instant convergence doesn't make a lot of sense other than to appeal to the snap shot players who "expect" things to work that way.

I think it would p**s a lot of players off, but I think it would be a solid improvement for the game in regards to TTK and spread on the battlefield.

[Mcgral18]

Magical convergence has always been an issue. We can't have progressive convergence due to HSR, so it seems we either take the magical instantaneous perfect convergence, or remove it entirely.

I wouldn't mind trying parallel firing. Arms with LAAs could still converge, bu unlikely to hit the same pixel target with massed laser fire.

Of course, this barely affects the 9S, since they are right beside each other.

Ralgas, on 20 January 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

how do any of these systems do anything to stop a nova prime slapping you for 30+ ppfd?

The Nova can't even mount 3 ERPPCs?

Unless you don't mean PP FLD, but simply pinpoint damage. There's a difference.


Besides, if we go parallel, look at the spread on the hands:
Not the greatest, but the best I have on hand.


Now, if you had said the StormCrow potential pods, you might have a point:

We're only getting the 4E one in the next pack, as opposed to the 6.

[Obelus]

I seem to remember seeing a poll on this. The majority of players wanted convergence.

Edited by Obelus, 20 January 2015 - 07:38 AM.

[blood4blood]

If the technical side (ray casting, HSR, lag, client view vs. server registering hits, etc.) works well, I'm fine with putting a convergence mechanic back into the game. If it causes shots to go wildly astray like it did in beta, then I'm opposed. Other than technical issues, I'm neutral.

[pbiggz]

The lack of REAL weapon convergence is the reason Pin point alpha damage is so powerful, and its the reason anyone argues in favour of ghost heat.

We should have COF and weapon convergence, not ghost heat. Early on in closed beta there WAS weapon convergence, but bad map design made them turn it off, like many other things, they promised us they'd turn it back on, only to forget about it and let paul give us the still born demon baby that is ghost heat.

Edited by pbiggz, 20 January 2015 - 07:42 AM.

[Kjudoon]

pwnface, on 20 January 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

Please no. I want to play a shooter not roll digital dice.

That's odd... Mechwarrior has always been digital dice, not an FPS.

Convergeance must go.