1126 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Ralgas, on 20 January 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

apart from cof idea there's nothing altering what it does now though, that's my point

ok - than you have indeed a challange.
Those 6 MLAS shouldn't hit the same spot?
Nor should any of the 6 MLAS in the other arm hit the same spot?
Should two lasers in similar locations from each arm hit the same spot?

OK - while i was thinking - i can remember some curious "realistic" shootings in the Beta. For example the AC 20 from the Atlas - with old convergence delay - the shot leaves the hip cannon and could hit a Catapult right in the head. You didn't have to aim.
While I can remember a fight with a Thunderbolt were i did run into a BattleMaster - my machine Guns were able to hit the Masters head - although it was right in front of me - (there was not angle to achieve that)

So I did start thinking a Cone of Fire may help - and i doesn't understand the skill problematic. Its not given.
The cone is increased based on cross hair movement and speed - so a Light Mech will have a huge cross hair all the time -but that shouldn't be a problem because of the average combat distance.
And you know where your weapons are - two MLAS in the left arm will hit next to each other - while two lasers in the other arm hit another spot - but still 4 beams instead of a single death star laser.
While torso weapons try to hit the same spot but with lower cone shrinking speed.

Slow moving and turning assaults may have a smaller cone, because they are stable weapon platforms that can't move fast.

I think in former discussions the Hunchback 4P was named Lase Shotgun - and thats exactly how it should work. Its called swayback for a reason. Because currently a 6 MLAS hunch is more as capable of dealing the same damage as a AC 20 hunch.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 20 January 2015 - 05:02 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 January 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

I do have a problem with convergence. Specially when I am firing 2 AC20s and they both hit a dime 200m away. Its not natural.

Well, it is 3050. Targeting is really advanced!

Ok, I could see maybe breaking the arms into separate reticules and keeping the whole torso and head all one reticule.

This would add a small variance to your dual A/C20 boom Jager as there would be a small delay to line up both arms.

Thing is though, it wouldn't affect the Boom K2 much since both barrels are torso mounted. Also the Hunch Swayback would look better since most of it's energy is torso mounted and not arm mounted.

I'd actually see this mechanic as a huge nerf to any mech with majority arm mounted weapons. It wouldn't hurt the Thud 9S much though lol.

This is just something that isn't easy to figure out IMO.

[Ralgas]

The Wakelord, on 20 January 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

One key argument against limited no convergence: "omg lagshield" arguments will reach new heights when literally no-one can dual AC20/gauss a light.

if you could make it do that while still having a reasonable spread on an assault, awesome!

one of the issue i have with the systems presented is we have some assaults ct hitboxes that are bigger than lights arm to arm. "omg lagshield" is exactly what would happen, or on the other hand balanced around lights it would make assaults laughably easy to kill in comparison as their incoming dmg effectively wouldn't alter.

Karl Streiger, on 20 January 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

ok - than you have indeed a challange.
Those 6 MLAS shouldn't hit the same spot?
Nor should any of the 6 MLAS in the other arm hit the same spot?
Should two lasers in similar locations from each arm hit the same spot?

OK - while i was thinking - i can remember some curious "realistic" shootings in the Beta. For example the AC 20 from the Atlas - with old convergence delay - the shot leaves the hip cannon and could hit a Catapult right in the head. You didn't have to aim.
While I can remember a fight with a Thunderbolt were i did run into a BattleMaster - my machine Guns were able to hit the Masters head - although it was right in front of me - (there was not angle to achieve that)

So I did start thinking a Cone of Fire may help - and i doesn't understand the skill problematic. Its not given.
The cone is increased based on cross hair movement and speed - so a Light Mech will have a huge cross hair all the time -but that shouldn't be a problem because of the average combat distance.
And you know where your weapons are - two MLAS in the left arm will hit next to each other - while two lasers in the other arm hit another spot - but still 4 beams instead of a single death star laser.
While torso weapons try to hit the same spot but with lower cone shrinking speed.

Slow moving and turning assaults may have a smaller cone, because they are stable weapon platforms that can't move fast.

I think in former discussions the Hunchback 4P was named Lase Shotgun - and thats exactly how it should work. Its called swayback for a reason. Because currently a 6 MLAS hunch is more as capable of dealing the same damage as a AC 20 hunch.

see above

Edited by Ralgas, 20 January 2015 - 05:05 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

I would love to give Cof a shot in this game. Have it be the current PP if you are firing 1 weapon. Then the targeting computer has aimed that 1 gun perfectly, but if you are firing 2 guns, the spot your shots hit will be slightly off where your aiming. If you fire 3, 4, 5 weapons all at once, then it really doesnt hit the mark you want it to. Max spread should be maybe 2x the size of the middle square/circle. Just enough to deviate weapons enough to not allow for a massive 80pt lolpha to land right where you need it.

Fighting at long range would be about aiming 1 weapon well, mid range you could get away with firing maybe 2 weapons at a time, it wouldnt be until your at closer then 200m that you could begin firing more then maybe 3 weapons and have any degree of accuracy.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 20 January 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

ok - than you have indeed a challange.
Those 6 MLAS shouldn't hit the same spot?
Nor should any of the 6 MLAS in the other arm hit the same spot?
Should two lasers in similar locations from each arm hit the same spot?

OK - while i was thinking - i can remember some curious "realistic" shootings in the Beta. For example the AC 20 from the Atlas - with old convergence delay - the shot leaves the hip cannon and could hit a Catapult right in the head. You didn't have to aim.
While I can remember a fight with a Thunderbolt were i did run into a BattleMaster - my machine Guns were able to hit the Masters head - although it was right in front of me - (there was not angle to achieve that)

Also think a Cone of Fire may help - and i doesn't understand the skill problematic. Its not given.
The cone is increased based on cross hair movement and speed - so a Light Mech will have a huge cross hair all the time -but that shouldn't be a problem because of the average combat distance.
While slow moving aiming assaults may have a smaller cone, because they are stable weapon platforms that can't move fast.

I think in former discussions the Hunchback 4P was named Lase Shotgun - and thats exactly how it should work. Its called swayback for a reason. Because currently a 6 MLAS hunch is more as capable of dealing the same damage as a AC 20 hunch.

Yes. Because the original AC20 has been removed and replaced. Do people even read the TROs?

Quote

Dwindling stockpiles of spare parts and personal dislike for a weapon which could easily overheat the 'Mech led many owners to replace the Hunchback's trademark autocannon with another set-up, resulting in a variety of variants collectively known as the Swayback due to the altered nature of the machine's torso.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Karl Streiger, on 20 January 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

I think in former discussions the Hunchback 4P was named Lase Shotgun - and thats exactly how it should work. Its called swayback for a reason. Because currently a 6 MLAS hunch is more as capable of dealing the same damage as a AC 20 hunch.

Only if the target is standing perfectly still. Then the target deserves getting pinpoint hit with 6MLasers. An A/C 20 delivers instant 20 damage, 6 MLasers apply 30 damage over a period of time. Can't really compare the two equally.

[Joseph Mallan]

MeiSooHaityu, on 20 January 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

Well, it is 3050. Targeting is really advanced!

Ok, I could see maybe breaking the arms into separate reticules and keeping the whole torso and head all one reticule.

This would add a small variance to your dual A/C20 boom Jager as there would be a small delay to line up both arms.

Thing is though, it wouldn't affect the Boom K2 much since both barrels are torso mounted. Also the Hunch Swayback would look better since most of it's energy is torso mounted and not arm mounted.

I'd actually see this mechanic as a huge nerf to any mech with majority arm mounted weapons. It wouldn't hurt the Thud 9S much though lol.

This is just something that isn't easy to figure out IMO.

No its 3050 and targeting is just getting a booster shot thanks to the Helm Memory Core. The kind of targeting we have had since I got into CB was liken to the Clan Omnis with a Targeting Computer and Pulse Lasers. You fire 4-6 weapons systems at the same time and there's going to be a lot of bucking... unless its lasers and maybe the PPC.

Here is Wiki on the Clan Targeting Computer:

The Targeting Computer was introduced by Clan Mongoose in 2860.[1] Targeting Computers are sophisticated pieces of electronics that, unlike normal targeting systems, physically help MechWarriors target their opponents. Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target. This allows for more surgical precision of weapons fire, especially with naturally accurate systems, allowing for the user to hit specific parts on the target vehicle.

The Inner Sphere finally caught up to Clan technology with the Federated Suns' development of their own targeting computer in 3062.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 January 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[SweetJackal]

Senor Cataclysmo, on 20 January 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

I'm not overly fussed by how it is now, but if someone could think of a more elegant, realistic or immersive solution I'd give it the benefit of the doubt. I'd certainly be up for *trying* taking away convergence.

As a side note, I always imagined torso weapons were mounted on gimbals so they could track your reticule as you moved.

Problem with gimbal torso mounted weapons is that most weapons mounted to Battlemechs are huge and mounted internally. The weapons that are mounted in a gimbal are small weapons, small lasers and machine guns are the ones depicted for this. When you have something mounted on a gimbal you have to give it room to swing and battlemechs are very tight and lacking in room for that (You can look at any internal schematic floating around from a TRO to verify that.)

An elegant solution to to the perceived problem of pintpoint damage is to simply remove the instant convergence from torso mounted weapons. By having torso mounted weapons and weapons in arms without lower arm actuators use fixed convergence like that of WWII fighter planes and have that convergence point be fixed to the weapon's optimum range you extend the depth of the game in terms of compromises and choices made when building, more depth to mech design and more difficulty to aiming all while doing so in a manner that is consistent and repeatable, meaning that skill can overcome the differences.

This system would still allow arms that do have lower arm actuators, and are therefore low slung (like the Atlas and Cata) to maintain the current instant convergence we have now.

[Ralgas]

ofc if all this got through we'd then welcome our lrm spamming overlords that don't give 2 tosses about which way their darts come out the tube...............

[Latorque]

Seriously; is there any awareness that there are weapons right now that aren't affected by potential convergence problems at all?

If the direct fire weapons are seriously reduced in delivering damage where it's meant to go, the natural response in this game (and pretty much any game) is not to delve into the intricacies of the new and more complex system; but to switch to the system that delivers maximum efficiency with minimum effort.

In all honesty; who here can truly say that he'll do different? I wouldn't, that's for sure.

If my direct fire weapons effect is reduced by them spraying all over the place; the logical switch are autotargeting weapons - read LRMs / SSRMs. The most vocal complaints about those is that they "spread damage" (and thank god they do), but so would suddenly all weapons in this game. If you're in the complex process of lining up your shots so that the LRM boat 300m in front of you will take damage to the CT; imagine doing this under the constant cockpit shake - he doesn't need to aim (except maybe for a tag, and one weapon has no convergence).

If autoconvergence goes; LRMs need to be reduced to a pure dumbfire artillery weapon - and that would be the system as it is in WoT. It works there; but wouldn't want to see it implemented in MWO...

Edited by Latorque, 20 January 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 20 January 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

ok - than you have indeed a challange.
Those 6 MLAS shouldn't hit the same spot?
Nor should any of the 6 MLAS in the other arm hit the same spot?
Should two lasers in similar locations from each arm hit the same spot?

OK - while i was thinking - i can remember some curious "realistic" shootings in the Beta. For example the AC 20 from the Atlas - with old convergence delay - the shot leaves the hip cannon and could hit a Catapult right in the head. You didn't have to aim.
While I can remember a fight with a Thunderbolt were i did run into a BattleMaster - my machine Guns were able to hit the Masters head - although it was right in front of me - (there was not angle to achieve that)

So I did start thinking a Cone of Fire may help - and i doesn't understand the skill problematic. Its not given.
The cone is increased based on cross hair movement and speed - so a Light Mech will have a huge cross hair all the time -but that shouldn't be a problem because of the average combat distance.
And you know where your weapons are - two MLAS in the left arm will hit next to each other - while two lasers in the other arm hit another spot - but still 4 beams instead of a single death star laser.
While torso weapons try to hit the same spot but with lower cone shrinking speed.

Slow moving and turning assaults may have a smaller cone, because they are stable weapon platforms that can't move fast.

I think in former discussions the Hunchback 4P was named Lase Shotgun - and thats exactly how it should work. Its called swayback for a reason. Because currently a 6 MLAS hunch is more as capable of dealing the same damage as a AC 20 hunch.

the cone of fire brings its own kind of sideffect, think about how you battle vs a scr or a nova. a stalker or an Awesome. some mechs by design are even with cone of fire easy takedowns and others get a ranodm luck based takeout.

So the only fair system would be a hit is a hit and gets randomly put into any location, this is then not affected that much, still it would make us as pilots still rather pointless except being a hover over and press lmb tool. This would not statisfy people.

CoF would be a valid solution if the technical hitboxes of all mechs would be the same. But this is not the case.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 January 2015 - 05:17 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

MeiSooHaityu, on 20 January 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

Only if the target is standing perfectly still. Then the target deserves getting pinpoint hit with 6MLasers. An A/C 20 delivers instant 20 damage, 6 MLasers apply 30 damage over a period of time. Can't really compare the two equally.

No of course not.
Have to "back up" with the TT mechanics
In other words the 4P get 6 chances to hit a target with moderate damage - while the 4G has one chance to kill.
If you aim for lights neither of both will get a "good" shot - but while its kill/miss for the 4G - it could still be a multiple hit in multiple sections for the 4P.
Turning the 4P in a scout and the 4G in an heavy hunter

Lily from animove, on 20 January 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:

the cone of fire brings its own kind of sideffect, think about how you battle vs a scr or a nova. a stalker or a Awesome. some emchs by desing are even with cone of fire easy takedowns and others get a ranodm luck based takeout.

- oh - right i had forgotten the target size.
well always thought that the mechs need some resizing - imho its a BattleMech Game not for ProtoMechs or Elementals

Edited by Karl Streiger, 20 January 2015 - 05:14 AM.

[Krasnovian]

Random thought that would make me laugh heartily, weapons do not shift convergence range unless target is locked, with the same lock on mechanics as LRMs. this seems not super realistic but fairly true to lore as most of the books talk about needing the computer to get a lock before firing accurately the old "reticle pulsed gold" thing.

On the other ideas I have heard repeatedly that multiple points of aim for weapon systems is out of the question without major redesigns of the game, it was the problem that they locked arm and torso convergence together to deal with.

[SweetJackal]

Krasnovian, on 20 January 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

Random thought that would make me laugh heartily, weapons do not shift convergence range unless target is locked, with the same lock on mechanics as LRMs. this seems not super realistic but fairly true to lore as most of the books talk about needing the computer to get a lock before firing accurately the old "reticle pulsed gold" thing.

We had something like that, Delayed Convergence as it was called, veryearly on in the CB. The hitreg couldn't handle it, dynamically changing firing lines were causing a desync between where the player was aiming on the client and where it was hitting on the server.

This was the original design for the game and the instant convergence we have now was supposed to be a placeholder until they could fix that system. Most of us have given up on ever seeing that system working as intended.

[The Wakelord]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 January 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

No its 3050 and targeting is just getting a booster shot thanks to the Helm Memory Core. The kind of targeting we have had since I got into CB was liken to the Clan Omnis with a Targeting Computer and Pulse Lasers. You fire 4-6 weapons systems at the same time and there's going to be a lot of bucking... unless its lasers and maybe the PPC.

Here is Wiki on the Clan Targeting Computer:

The Targeting Computer was introduced by Clan Mongoose in 2860.[1] Targeting Computers are sophisticated pieces of electronics that, unlike normal targeting systems, physically help MechWarriors target their opponents. Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target. This allows for more surgical precision of weapons fire, especially with naturally accurate systems, allowing for the user to hit specific parts on the target vehicle.

The Inner Sphere finally caught up to Clan technology with the Federated Suns' development of their own targeting computer in 3062.

Yes. The lore of the TT supported the TT game mechanic of random rolls. Big surprise.

[Lily from animove]

Krasnovian, on 20 January 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

Random thought that would make me laugh heartily, weapons do not shift convergence range unless target is locked, with the same lock on mechanics as LRMs. this seems not super realistic but fairly true to lore as most of the books talk about needing the computer to get a lock before firing accurately the old "reticle pulsed gold" thing.

On the other ideas I have heard repeatedly that multiple points of aim for weapon systems is out of the question without major redesigns of the game, it was the problem that they locked arm and torso convergence together to deal with.

this could work, but would need the ecm totally changed because ecm mechs suddenly untargetable, no convergence wow extremely unbalanced.

further fast moving mechs still cuase the client server sided desynch which means a 150kph mech will screw convergence as well. So that issue would still apply. a 150kph mehc is moving 4m per 0,1second. meaning a 120ms palyer (like most Eu gamers) have a convergence discrepancy of 5m. this is having quite a big impact when your target is far away and tiny. or close to you and speedy.

[RedDragon]

As I wrote in another thread:
There is no need to make it complicated or use randomness. Just make convergence fixed to an adjustable point (maybe 100m steps, adjustable by mouse wheel). That is for manual aim. Add fixed convergence for the locked target as long as it stays locked.
That way convergence mostly becomes skill based (you have to guess the target range if you can't get a lock). You remove pot-shots with instant convergence. There is nothing random about it. And there won't be as many server load/ping related issues as you would get with "normal" convergence because in that case the server would have to calculate the convergence point under your crosshairs and sync it with where your target is at the moment.

[CDLord HHGD]

IMHO something should be done. IDC if its CoF, or just removing pinpoint and the weapons fire forward based on their locations (I did have a graphic with explanation in another thread a while back. If you want the graphic, lemme know).

[MeiSooHaityu]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 January 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

No its 3050 and targeting is just getting a booster shot thanks to the Helm Memory Core. The kind of targeting we have had since I got into CB was liken to the Clan Omnis with a Targeting Computer and Pulse Lasers. You fire 4-6 weapons systems at the same time and there's going to be a lot of bucking... unless its lasers and maybe the PPC.

Here is Wiki on the Clan Targeting Computer:

The Targeting Computer was introduced by Clan Mongoose in 2860.[1] Targeting Computers are sophisticated pieces of electronics that, unlike normal targeting systems, physically help MechWarriors target their opponents. Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target. This allows for more surgical precision of weapons fire, especially with naturally accurate systems, allowing for the user to hit specific parts on the target vehicle.

The Inner Sphere finally caught up to Clan technology with the Federated Suns' development of their own targeting computer in 3062.

That's great and all, but at the end of the day, this is an online shooter. People want to hit what they point at.

You can get away with variance to some extent (especially if they can see why variance exists), but this execution can only be taken so far.

If a person goes to play and they have 5 reticules (all behaving differently) and shots go everywhere and they can't keep easy track of what reticule is for what weapon, they will think "screw this" and they will go play something else.

Again, I'm not completely against some variance if it works, makes sense, and can feel natural to compensate for.

If there is 5 reticules, some bounce with the mech, some gimble, some drift, some don't; and because of this, my weapons fire looks like a 1980s class picture with the laser background, I'm not going to play.

No one here would miss me (heck, no one would even know I was gone), but I wouldnt be the only one. This game would upset and lose a lot of people, not just me.

You need to be careful about what you want to implement and how. Some ideas are more radical than others and if you stray too far and really mess with aim, you will lose a lot of people.

Just remember, people want to simply hit what they aim at in a shooter. Mess with that too much, and they will find another shooter in a market of a lot of shooters.

[Pariah Devalis]

I have always been a fan of making the torso weapons locked at infinity, and only the arm weapons being allowed to converge (and only if at least one lower arm actuator is present). Even with arm convergence, just make it so it centers the parallel beams on the crosshair. The actual shots from the arm will hit around said crosshair based on their physical location on the arm. This addresses mechs like the Nova, with 30+ damage laser arms.

You can get your precision by mounting weapons in the vulnerable arms or you can get your safe firepower by torso mounting your guns but lose out on pinpoint convergence. A pro and a con for each, while retaining both Pinpoint and Cone of Fire in a logical manner.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 January 2015 - 05:52 AM.