1126 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Kmieciu, on 20 January 2015 - 02:54 AM, said:

The easiest option would be turning off convergence for torso weapons and arms that don't have lower arm actuators.

A more advanced option would be a manually set convergence, like in Warthunder.

Do you have any idea what turning off convergence for arms with no LAAs would do to the King Crab? those weapons are so wide i dont think it would ever be possible for both arms to hit the same mech. From good to total junk in seconds. bad idea.

Delayed convergence is also off the table due to it not being feasible with HSR.

Id be fine with a heat/movement based cone of fire, but when stopped and cold it should be down to 0 dispersion.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 20 January 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[Nimbus Captain Brannigan]

I think there should be something like this:

Arms converge quick thus you can shoot up to face hug range at pinpoint.

Torso has little dashes on the X that converge over time. Sort of like crosshair on WOT but shots are not random, they land where the 2 converging dashes are. I think that there should be minimal range for convergence for torso weapons.
so crosshair would look something like this (-:-+-:-) where the : is your left and right torso weapons.
EDIT: Oh forgot to mention, this only works at close range, at long range the torso can fully converge.

In retrospect, you could track targets good with your arm weapons, but crit slots for actuators take up alot of room thus you can mount only certain weapons. Torso you can mount big heavy weapons, but you would need to fire one side of torso weapons, then twist torso a bit to fire other side at same spot.

This would also then make use of the actual skill that you train for weapon convergence.

I mean if you think logically, certain mechs shouldnt be able to torso shoot at face hug range. Example SRM6 on torso for Stalker, you would be shooting your own cockpit...

Anyways, TLDR: pinpoint on arms quick convergence, longer convergence on torso and no pinpoint.

Edited by ValheruThunar, 20 January 2015 - 04:09 AM.

[Grand Ayatrollah]

sneeking, on 20 January 2015 - 02:44 AM, said:

No, I want to make convergence user controlled so players know their target range.

Ya that would be ideal. Mechwarrior is all about customization, however if it took PGI this long to get an in game voice feature working, it would probably take a year to get something together with player controlled convergence.

It wouldn't even have to be that complicated, one my fav games...

Edited by Grand Ayatrollah, 20 January 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

ValheruThunar, on 20 January 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

I think there should be something like this:

Arms converge quick thus you can shoot up to face hug range at pinpoint.

Torso has little dashes on the X that converge over time. Sort of like crosshair on WOT but shots are not random, they land where the 2 converging dashes are. I think that there should be minimal range for convergence for torso weapons.
so crosshair would look something like this (-:-+-:-) where the : is your left and right torso weapons.
EDIT: Oh forgot to mention, this only works at close range, at long range the torso can fully converge.

In retrospect, you could track targets good with your arm weapons, but crit slots for actuators take up alot of room thus you can mount only certain weapons. Torso you can mount big heavy weapons, but you would need to fire one side of torso weapons, then twist torso a bit to fire other side at same spot.

This would also then make use of the actual skill that you train for weapon convergence.

I mean if you think logically, certain mechs shouldnt be able to torso shoot at face hug range. Example SRM6 on torso for Stalker, you would be shooting your own cockpit...

Anyways, TLDR: pinpoint on arms quick convergence, longer convergence on torso and no pinpoint.

Delayed convergence is apparently not feasible with HSR, according to PGI. You dont want HSR gone unless you like tabbing to check someones ping before shooting at them to determine how much to lead by

[MeiSooHaityu]

Apocryph0n, on 20 January 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

thing is: pretty much every FPS has cone of fire. (Call of Duty, Battlefield. Even ARMA 2+3 which are Simulators, not shooters.) So i don't get why it is completely out of the equation for most people here.

I personally get that it sounds like "They are taking something away from me!" then. But actually: you get more precise weapons, less precise (Guass being rather precise then, and say as example: AC's being slightly off, Lasers kind of in the middle ground and missiles, well they always were random and will stay that way )

On the other hand: We could keep infinitely accurate weapons (which is 100% non realistic, every weapon has muzzle deviation, except for lasers.) and make the convergence thing change.

Both has pros and cons. Convergence approach keeps the accuracy but limits you to snipe/be accurate with either your arm weapons or 1 torso weapon only. while the rest flies off to godknowswhere.

CoF approach would mean: you can aim, but you have to choose your weapons for the job. No more "sniping someones cockpit out at 350meters with an AC20" (imagine a 150mm howitzer being used to fight accurately in a knifefight)

It's all a question of how they would implement each approach. You can overdo both things and make them too harsh/not worth considering.

That said: I do guess I'm more a fan of the convergence for build diversity, since CoF still would mean people have shield arms and stuff.

Games like CoD and such have weapons that fire multiple rounds that are either burst or automatic. The weapons are held by a person who has to try and keep a barrel sighted and on target while the weapon kicks. To me, a cone of fire makes sense.

In MWO you have a single shot being fired if ballistic (IS anyway). That's more equated to a sniper round in other shooters. I'm sure other shooters that fire a one round shot have that one round hit where you pointed it. That's why multiple rapid firing weapons in MWO should have a cone of fire. Heck, clan Ultras should have a cone of fire too, but they don't need to be nerfed any harder.

Also, weapons like Lasers don't have any kickback. Firing a laser should be pinpoint.

I will say that I am not totally against some slower convergence of say arm mounted weapons vs torso mounted. Maybe.

I'm just saying that taking accuracy out of shots that should be accurate is going to make for poor game mechanics. It takes something that isn't popular with some players (like convergence) and replaces it with a mechanic that nobody is going to like in the long run.

You know how frustrating bad hit registration is. "I aimed at him, why didn't I hit him!". Now potentially add this to all shots all the time "I aimed at him, why did my shots not go where I pointed them! How do I predict this crap!"

I'm just Leary of a mechanic like this.

[Lily from animove]

MeiSooHaityu, on 20 January 2015 - 04:28 AM, said:

Games like CoD and such have weapons that fire multiple rounds that are either burst or automatic. The weapons are held by a person who has to try and keep a barrel sighted and on target while the weapon kicks. To me, a cone of fire makes sense.

In MWO you have a single shot being fired if ballistic (IS anyway). That's more equated to a sniper round in other shooters. I'm sure other shooters that fire a one round shot have that one round hit where you pointed it. That's why multiple rapid firing weapons in MWO should have a cone of fire. Heck, clan Ultras should have a cone of fire too, but they don't need to be nerfed any harder.

Also, weapons like Lasers don't have any kickback. Firing a laser should be pinpoint.

I will say that I am not totally against some slower convergence of say arm mounted weapons vs torso mounted. Maybe.

I'm just saying that taking accuracy out of shots that should be accurate is going to make for poor game mechanics. It takes something that isn't popular with some players (like convergence) and replaces it with a mechanic that nobody is going to like in the long run.

You know how frustrating bad hit registration is. "I aimed at him, why didn't I hit him!". Now potentially add this to all shots all the time "I aimed at him, why did my shots not go where I pointed them! How do I predict this crap!"

I'm just Leary of a mechanic like this.

further more if oyu have a 120ms, and have to lead your target, how should convergence even work on this. No the online nature of the game is just making some mechanics invalid. They weould be cool in any PVE game where all is handeled clientsided.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 January 2015 - 04:44 AM.

[Egomane]

I don't have a problem with convergence in general.

What I do have a problem with the pinpoint convergence without delay. Before HSR, we had a convergence that needed time to adjust itself the distance under the crosshair. If you stared at a rock before you and then wanted to shot someone 800 meters away, it took a moment to recalibrate the waeopns, to converge again. If you didn't take that time, it was possible to miss your target completly, despite the mech being straight under your crosshair.

I still hope, that we will get something like that again someday.

[RangerGee412]

5 different reticle's, 6 on some.

1 for mechs with lower arm actuators, 2 for mechs without like jagers, Jenner etc.

1 for the head
1 for the CT
1 for each side torso.

Perfect convergence for each reticle group.

[Mawai]

Alistair Winter, on 20 January 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

I'm not talking about cone of fire, as in CounterStrike or CoD. There's nothing random about removing convergence.

There may be nothing random about removing it ... but if you want to aim effectively at that point you require a separate reticle for each and every weapon on the mech ... otherwise folks will aim the reticle at the target and then wonder why both rounds missed when they passed by on either side of the target and then blame the game for bad hit registration

The game originally had timed convergence (or at least it was planned to have it) ... but I think it ran into major issues in regard to server side authoritative implementation and the effect of lag ... how do you keep the cursor on the target for a required length of time to converge your weapons when it is the server that decides if you are converged? I don't know how an implementation of this feature now would play out with HSR in terms of either reliability or cpu costs.

[Joseph Mallan]

RangerGee412, on 20 January 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:

5 different reticle's, 6 on some.

1 for mechs with lower arm actuators, 2 for mechs without like jagers, Jenner etc.

1 for the head
1 for the CT
1 for each side torso.

Perfect convergence for each reticle group.

Still not right. perfect convergence is a myth IRL.

[Ralgas]

how do any of these systems do anything to stop a nova prime slapping you for 30+ ppfd?

Edited by Ralgas, 20 January 2015 - 04:47 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

RangerGee412, on 20 January 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:

5 different reticle's, 6 on some.

1 for mechs with lower arm actuators, 2 for mechs without like jagers, Jenner etc.

1 for the head
1 for the CT
1 for each side torso.

Perfect convergence for each reticle group.

Oh god no. I'm sorry, but no.

I don't need to keep track visually of 3+ different retcules on my screen plus keep track of what us going on in front of me. Trying to wiggle the mouse to get them all as lined up as possible.

Having weapons in all torsos, one in the head, and one in the arm with an actuator and one arm without an actuator, the reticules would look like a loosly wound slinky bouncing all over the place.

Do not want!

[Karl Streiger]

Ralgas, on 20 January 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

how do any of these systems do anything to a nova prime?

You loose the Ghost Heat
- and because Laser are "Beam" weapons you can adjust on the fly - so snap fire with a PPC - shot can misfire - snap fire with Laser and you still have time to adjust

that was the only reason for the Large Laser being superior in Closed Beta over the PPC - for most users.
but when you get used to pinpoint - the Atlas with 2 ER PPCs and 1 Gauss was a killer

Edited by Karl Streiger, 20 January 2015 - 04:49 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mawai, on 20 January 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

There may be nothing random about removing it ... but if you want to aim effectively at that point you require a separate reticle for each and every weapon on the mech ... otherwise folks will aim the reticle at the target and then wonder why both rounds missed when they passed by on either side of the target and then blame the game for bad hit registration

The game originally had timed convergence (or at least it was planned to have it) ... but I think it ran into major issues in regard to server side authoritative implementation and the effect of lag ... how do you keep the cursor on the target for a required length of time to converge your weapons when it is the server that decides if you are converged? I don't know how an implementation of this feature now would play out with HSR in terms of either reliability or cpu costs.

That's even a whole other issue all together. With the server playing a huge part in validating shots (which it should do), it will create a whole other layer of lag affects on top of what we have now for hit reg.

[Lily from animove]

Ralgas, on 20 January 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

how do any of these systems do anything to a nova prime?

Nova prime is a nice example of how the system fails, because the arms would still ahve the PP.

and in reverse with the oversized hitbooxes the Nova has, convergence would hardly prevent single secion high damage hits vs a few chassis. because some chassis have loactions so huge that even convergence is not solving this issue. All that system creates would be some mechs DOA yb their geometry. currently even mchs with better hitboxes cna even get damage into a single section if yiu take palyerskill of the pilot aiming into account. After such a change, these hitboxed mechs are king of the battlefield, and many are dead.

[Ralgas]

Karl Streiger, on 20 January 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

You loose the Ghost Heat
- and because Laser are "Beam" weapons you can adjust on the fly - so snap fire with a PPC - shot can misfire - snap fire with Laser and you still have time to adjust

apart from cof idea there's nothing altering what it does now though, that's my point

[Joseph Mallan]

Egomane, on 20 January 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with convergence in general.

What I do have a problem with the pinpoint convergence without delay. Before HSR, we had a convergence that needed time to adjust itself the distance under the crosshair. If you stared at a rock before you and then wanted to shot someone 800 meters away, it took a moment to recalibrate the waeopns, to converge again. If you didn't take that time, it was possible to miss your target completly, despite the mech being straight under your crosshair.

I still hope, that we will get something like that again someday.

I do have a problem with convergence. Specially when I am firing 2 AC20s and they both hit a dime 200m away. Its not natural.

[The Wakelord]

Alistair Winter, on 20 January 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

Is this what the community wants, or is it simply a Vocal Minority™?

I think more the latter than the former - probably is also true for Urbie lovers and Thunderbolt haters. A massive portion of the community is casual, with only the strongly opinionated (me) or the hardcore actually frequent the forum.

As for convergence, it is part of the game. I would prefer slightly less, so rather than all weapons hitting the same pinprick, they have a 1~5% deviation depending on range / tracking /whatever. I think there should be an amount, because
1) it is a 1,000 years in the future, and they can probably stick tiny motors on a gun given they have made billions of tiny motors for pseduo-muscles on our walking tanks.
2) it makes a game with a **** tutorial slightly easier to learn
3) it improves the gameplay for me knowing where I will shoot (kinda). Heck, I'd even like to see my guns (like a hunchback or shadowhawk) so I can accurately gauge my shots. Every time my nova unloads 6ML into a friendly person standing next to me (but out of my field of view) I feel terrible.

One key argument against limited no convergence: "omg lagshield" arguments will reach new heights when literally no-one can dual AC20/gauss a light.

[Joseph Mallan]

I'd say 1-3% for Lasers(ya know Laser accurate and all) and 5-15% for ballistic.

Triple this (ballistics only) if firing multiples.

[Apocryph0n]

Now that I am thinking about it:

If you do it the "Remove Ghost heat, remove torso weapon convergence and only make arm weapons converge" thing:

The Nova would be rad. I mean, totally rad!