1126 replies to this topic

[Narcoleptes]

Aresye, on 20 January 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

If convergence was taken out the meta would just shift to massive SRM and streak spam.

We would probably see more lurm boats as well. Its tough to trade with homing death balls of missiles if you have to chainfire your weapons to focus down their CT. Even a perfect shot would get wrecked by some yahoo in a LRM 50 Stalker.

[Narcoleptes]

Alistair Winter, on 20 January 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

I thought it was quite clear in the OP. The argument a lot of players are making is that removing convergence would create more diversity and stop the game from being dominated by laser vomit builds / assault mech AC20/ppc/gauss builds that are able to take out most mechs' components in one or two alpha strikes. It would also increase TTK and buff high DPS builds, creating more diverse gameplay.

That's the argument, anyway. Whether that's actually the case is what we're discussing.

DPS builds certainly have their place. The Dakka-Wolf is the prime example of DPS. Lowering AC2 ghost heat would help DPS builds as well.

People want to remove PPC/AC 20/Gauss and Laser Vomit builds? Which leaves DPS (which works now but would also get nerfed by removing convergence), LRM Boats, and SRM/Streak boats. So big missile-fest anyone?

[operatorZ]

wow...guess we got on the crazy train....

To all the people who are taking this waaaaaay to far......

every time a post is made to possibly improve game play by making minor adjustments people go bat sh*t crazy with exaggeration....

yes removing all convergence is bad IMHO...

Yes not being able to hit what you aim at is bad...

I just think that some real dynamics added to the shooting aspect would improve the game for many reasons....
Not big changes...just make a 1000m shot 50/50 if on the move...
Just make a 800m shot on a standing mech 50/50 for that exact component
and scale back from there...

how about mech shake means something to targeting?...hello AC/2

these aren't game breaking changes nor are they AWWWWWNNNNEEEEERRRFFFF everything...

get a grip its just a discussion.

[1453 R]

Mcgral18, on 20 January 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

You can still hit exactly what you want with most suggestions; it just removes easy mode.

That is, hitting EVERYTHING exactly where you want simultaneously.


Of course, most players don't want to lose their easy mode. Understandable.

Fup, McGral, I am not in the mood for the usual forum sniping at the moment. You're a chill guy most of the time and I respect that, but I'ma ask you to keep the personal slander out of this, if that's all right by you?

My apologies, Fup. I really am in a **** place in life at the moment.

pyrocomp, on 20 January 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

Actually, most people are not against 'hitting what you aim at', but against 'hitting same pixel across the map with each and every weapon on board'. In other words, as I undertstand these threads, all people want - damage spread for alphas. Not large to never hit Atlas from 200 m, but surely miss some shots on Locust at 1000 m distance.

Define 'Alpha'.

Nobody seems to be able to do that.

If I'm in a Warhawk-Prime and I fire my two left-arm C-ERPPCs at that Locust, taking the time to lead my shots and put them where they need to go, should I be rewarded with hitting that Locust? With both PPCs? I believe I should, because landing C-ERPPC shots at 1000m against a Locust-sized, Locust-speed target is not really in any way 'Easy Mode'. Convergence proposal guys believe I should not, because I had the sheer, unadulterated gall to fire more than one weapon at a time, and most convergence proposals I've seen are effectively attempting to force chainfire.

Most convergence proposals I've seen would have the pair of medium lasers in my old Victors' left arms hitting completely different locations of an enemy 'Mech, within optimal medium laser range - if they even both hit the target at all. Most convergence proposals I've seen would have the quartet of lasers in most Timber Wolves' arms hitting three separate locations on an enemy 'Mech, while the fourth laser typically misses altogether. This is, of course, if the convergence proposal in question does not assume that gimbaled weapon mounts are a thing and figure that torso-mounted weaponry should be hard-bolted to the chassis and thus impossible to aim. Those guys want to bring back arm weapon mounts as important, but still seem to feel the need to attach separate cones of fire to different weapons in the same location, in order to artificially mitigate the player's ability to put fire on target. Unless, of course, they fire in chainfire mode, at which point they may regain some-but-not-all of the accuracy they lost.

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that tracking anywhere between four and ten completely different reticle aimpoints, on average, would turn the targeting system HUD into an undecipherable mess. Leaving aside for the moment that it's as plain as my frustration with life at the moment that certain weapons on certain 'Mechs are specifically designed to be fired in groups. Leaving aside for the moment that eliminating the ability to accurately fire grouped weapons does nothing to balance missile storms, leaving missile-based machines to rise to unquestioned dominance in direct contradiction of the stated goal of any convergence change (i.e. "KILL THE F*&^ING META DEAD!!!)

Leaving aside all of that. Does any of this even sound fun? Does it sound like something a new player would enjoy learning to use, in the case of such tomf&^#ery as "hard-set convergence decided in the MechLab"? Does it sound like it'd be easy to explain to new folks why their targeting crosshair is a loose suggestion of where they might hit if they're lucky, rather than an indication of where their weapons fire is going?

Would you really rather have any of this can't-hit-what-you-aim-at crap in place of Ghost Heat? Because I'm telling you right now - I'd rather keep the arbitrary, annoying, completely opaque alpha limiting system we already have than try to rip it out and substitute an arbitrary, annoying, completely opaque alpha limiting system.

Edited by 1453 R, 20 January 2015 - 04:20 PM.

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 20 January 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Fup, I am not in the mood for the usual forum sniping at the moment. You're a chill guy most of the time and I respect that, but I'ma ask you to keep the personal slander out of this, if that's all right by you?

Hey, you're replying to McGral, not me!

[Mcgral18]

cSand, on 20 January 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

And you will, cause your ******* opponent will stand there face hugging you. And no sir you whether you believe it or not your weapons are not hitting the same pixel from a snapshot 500m out

Only on an unmoving, useless **** of a target

IE most players


basically, if PPFLD is a huge problem for someone, that person just plain sucks a$$ at MWO.

End of story.


I drive QKD's for christ sakes, anything can alpha me into oblivion. But they rarely do. Unless I'm standing there like a dipsh*t in the open

then complain about PPFLD MRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH

This is the same argument as the TTK argument. Same old people complaining cause they die too fast.
Nobody admitting extreme levels of dumbassery that lead to those deaths

Laser deathstars too.


It's been the basis of all balance issues involving MWO, minus those 15 damage SRMs and 7 damage LRMs...dat splash.


You do understand that?


They do hit the same pixel, by the way. Even if they twist, with laserspam it still hits the pixel you are aiming at. I'm well aware of how easy laserspam is. The WubShee being one of the grossest and easiest mechs to focus damage with, just under 60 damage in a half second. Good luck twisting that.

[1453 R]

My apologies, Fup. Edited to correct. Don't know where your name came from.

[Alistair Winter]

Narcoleptes, on 20 January 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

DPS builds certainly have their place. The Dakka-Wolf is the prime example of DPS. Lowering AC2 ghost heat would help DPS builds as well.
People want to remove PPC/AC 20/Gauss and Laser Vomit builds? Which leaves DPS (which works now but would also get nerfed by removing convergence), LRM Boats, and SRM/Streak boats. So big missile-fest anyone?

Wanting to nerf the gauss + ER PPC Dire Wolf is not the same as removing it from the game.

Please stop with the false dichotomies.

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 20 January 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

My apologies, Fup. Edited to correct. Don't know where your name came from.

It might be because McGral is one of my biggest fans, and is often seen posting similar things as I do (albeit with different tones sometimes). And he's one of my biggest sources of +1's.

He's second only to Deathlike, who's basically the unofficial president of my non-existent fanclub.

[cSand]

Everyone is given the same playing field to work on

whether they can succeed in it or not is entirely on the player's shoulders and not the fault of some game mechanic.

Regardless, we're not talking lasers here. They can be rolled off, even the wub (and frankly if you see a Banshee and decide to take it head on, you deserve all the WUB it can give you).

We're talking ballistics and PPC... PPFLD weapons yo. They are the boogieman here after all. And they sure as sh*t don't hit the same pixel. Lasers, sure they do. But they're lasers. They should hit exactly where they are pointed

[1453 R]

Alistair Winter, on 20 January 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

Wanting to nerf the gauss + ER PPC Dire Wolf is not the same as removing it from the game.

Please stop with the false dichotomies.

Nothing anyone can ever do to MWO will stop the Dire Whale from having over fifty tons of weaponry.

It is impossible to stop the Dire Whale from being able to alpha 'Mechs that weigh less than half of its armament tonnage alone out of existence in one salvo, if that's what a Dire Whale wants to do.

Why people feel that wandering in front of a Dire Whale all fat, dumb and happy should not be punishable by death is beyond me. The only time I have trouble with Whales in regular pug matches is when the enemy team has enough of their heads out of their butts to play close support to the Whale. And even then, that just means a significant portion of the enemy team is shackled to a hundred-ton boat anchor. if people would stop standing in front of the Death Star, it might stop killing them as often as it does.

[Gyrok]

terrycloth, on 20 January 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

It's a drawback because the game is balanced around being able to spread damage instead of just having a pool of hit points.

Most of the time, the current behavior is fine -- lasers tend to wobble and spread, ballistics are really heavy so it's hard to combine them, missiles already have a cone of fire.

It breaks down when you're able to combine a bunch of weapons into the equivalent of one big weapon, so that whatever part of the mech you hit is instantly destroyed. That's what people are trying to avoid.

I'd really prefer ripple-fire (rapid chain fire when you 'alpha') to losing convergence, though.

NEWSFLASH:
The player has all the tools to spread that damage all over his mech.

The reality of this is the following:

Every individual player in this game has all the capability to torso twist, turn, use cover, and jump jet. The same as any other player on the field.

The ONUS of the damage spread component, is no longer falling on the RNG gods, and instead, is falling squarely on pilot skill. Whether you like, love, or hate that...the reality is, in identical mechs, there are players who will out play others...this even while coping with identical circumstances.

Why? Because they learned how to mitigate incoming damage by dictating the manner in which it is spread over the mech.

That is where your TT/RNG gods come in. In TT, you cannot sit there and say, "I twist my exposed LT away from the other guys to prevent him hitting me..." It would do you no good, whatsoever. So under these circumstances, YOU as the player, actually have more control over what you can protect, and what you cannot, then TT would ever allow.

This means that you can literally become a tanky mech of destruction by simply learning how to spread damage.

Now, you might argue..."But, Gyrok, 30 points to the same location, etc..."

Sure...in TT if you were hit with a PPC, it still hit the same location, so did lasers and everything else. Armor has been doubled. Fire rates are likely a tad bit faster than they should be, but it is still doable.

The only issue I honestly see in all of this, is the fact that a random RNG on a strike can still headshot a full armored cockpit on a mech. RNG can be in the game as far as I am concerned...but not when it comes to determining whether I can be killed in 1 hit from 100%. RNG is just too frickin buggy for that **** to fly.

Alistair Winter, on 20 January 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

I thought it was quite clear in the OP. The argument a lot of players are making is that removing convergence would create more diversity and stop the game from being dominated by laser vomit builds / assault mech AC20/ppc/gauss builds that are able to take out most mechs' components in one or two alpha strikes. It would also increase TTK and buff high DPS builds, creating more diverse gameplay. That's the argument, anyway. Whether that's actually the case is what we're discussing.

How does nerfing long beam duration DoT, that has been nerfed into the ground already, stop PPFLD issues again...?

Now you are just sticking up for bad players...if you cannot torso twist during a 1+ second beam and spread some damage...please...

[Alistair Winter]

1453 R, on 20 January 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

Nothing anyone can ever do to MWO will stop the Dire Whale from having over fifty tons of weaponry.
It is impossible to stop the Dire Whale from being able to alpha 'Mechs that weigh less than half of its armament tonnage alone out of existence in one salvo, if that's what a Dire Whale wants to do.
Why people feel that wandering in front of a Dire Whale all fat, dumb and happy should not be punishable by death is beyond me. The only time I have trouble with Whales in regular pug matches is when the enemy team has enough of their heads out of their butts to play close support to the Whale. And even then, that just means a significant portion of the enemy team is shackled to a hundred-ton boat anchor. if people would stop standing in front of the Death Star, it might stop killing them as often as it does.

This thread isn't just about the Dire Whale. But removing the ability for assault mechs to converge 50 tons of weaponry on a single pixel would certainly alleviate the issue you're talking about.

Some people want convergence to stay, others want to remove it. I'm just here to get people's opinions, but it really makes it harder to get constructive discussion going when people keep misrepresenting each other's views.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 20 January 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

It might be because McGral is one of my biggest fans, and is often seen posting similar things as I do (albeit with different tones sometimes). And he's one of my biggest sources of +1's. He's second only to Deathlike, who's basically the unofficial president of my non-existent fanclub.

LOL...we see eye to eye more often than not...honestly...and McGral...

[blood4blood]

cSand, on 20 January 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Nobody admitting extreme levels of dumbassery that lead to those deaths

Hmmmmm....*raises hand* I will freely admit that most of my quick deaths are due to my own dumbassery, like choosing to scout in a light that has no extra sensors, no ecm, and walking around a corner into a DWF alpha strike, or worse, an entire assault lance. Guilty, I've earned the Light Mech Darwin Award achievement more than once. "Here, hold my beer and watch this..."

On convergence...
Good: Better simulation, more realistic, more immersion, more challenging to put all your damage where you want it.

Bad: Steep learning curve gets steeper, turns off tons of casual FPS players and old-school arcade gamers, more players frustrated with what many will see as bad or even unrealistic mechanics after being used to regular FPS games.

Debatable: TTK goes up as most players' PPFLD goes down (I know many feel this would be good, but I'm not sure they've thought it all the way through). Mid- and close- range brawling builds will be even more favored than they already are. LBX and SRM's without Artemis will probably rise in popularity since scattering damage will be more of the norm than the exception. Teams that rush with coordinated brawler builds will likely dominate PUG's to a sick degree (remember the old 8-man of CN9-A zombie bombtrucks doing a tunnel base rush tactic?). People will have to re-learn the mech lab because hardpoint choices will become a lot more important (fun for the hardcore mech builder, but even worse learning curve for the new player). Skilled and accurate players who can still land high pinpoint damage, especially at range, will be accused of aimbotting even more than they are already.

The need: There is no need for this change IMHO - I personally don't care if they do it or not, but I do worry how the change would affect the game's reputation and popularity in the larger scheme of things, especially with the Steam release being imminent. Would it become "that damn robot sim FPS that never shoots straight" or the "most awesomely realistic shooter sim ever?"

(Edit for punctuation. My gaming keyboard sucks for typing- it gets forum lag somehow.)

Edited by blood4blood, 20 January 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Gyrok, on 20 January 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

How does nerfing long beam duration DoT, that has been nerfed into the ground already, stop PPFLD issues again...?
Now you are just sticking up for bad players...if you cannot torso twist during a 1+ second beam and spread some damage...please...

I'm not sticking up for anyone, I'm explaining what the argument is.

By the way, torso twisting doesn't work against legs. Which is part of the reason why people often target legs when they're piloting laser vomit builds.

Torso twisting also doesn't work for builds that rely on continued fire rather than burst fire. This exacerbates the trend of pinpoint burst fire builds.

[ollo]

Alistair Winter, on 20 January 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

Do the majority of players want to get rid of convergence?

Nope.

OK i feel the need to elaborate: It sucks when you ain and the game decides to shoot at somewhere you are not aiming. It kills skill. But i'd be OK with the not-really-instant convergence on weapons, meaning you need time to adjust from 800m to 150m to get your convergion PP again.

[Narcoleptes]

1453 R, on 20 January 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Fup, McGral, I am not in the mood for the usual forum sniping at the moment. You're a chill guy most of the time and I respect that, but I'ma ask you to keep the personal slander out of this, if that's all right by you?

My apologies, Fup. I really am in a **** place in life at the moment.



Define 'Alpha'.

Nobody seems to be able to do that.

If I'm in a Warhawk-Prime and I fire my two left-arm C-ERPPCs at that Locust, taking the time to lead my shots and put them where they need to go, should I be rewarded with hitting that Locust? With both PPCs? I believe I should, because landing C-ERPPC shots at 1000m against a Locust-sized, Locust-speed target is not really in any way 'Easy Mode'. Convergence proposal guys believe I should not, because I had the sheer, unadulterated gall to fire more than one weapon at a time, and most convergence proposals I've seen are effectively attempting to force chainfire.

Most convergence proposals I've seen would have the pair of medium lasers in my old Victors' left arms hitting completely different locations of an enemy 'Mech, within optimal medium laser range - if they even both hit the target at all. Most convergence proposals I've seen would have the quartet of lasers in most Timber Wolves' arms hitting three separate locations on an enemy 'Mech, while the fourth laser typically misses altogether. This is, of course, if the convergence proposal in question does not assume that gimbaled weapon mounts are a thing and figure that torso-mounted weaponry should be hard-bolted to the chassis and thus impossible to aim. Those guys want to bring back arm weapon mounts as important, but still seem to feel the need to attach separate cones of fire to different weapons in the same location, in order to artificially mitigate the player's ability to put fire on target. Unless, of course, they fire in chainfire mode, at which point they may regain some-but-not-all of the accuracy they lost.

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that tracking anywhere between four and ten completely different reticle aimpoints, on average, would turn the targeting system HUD into an undecipherable mess. Leaving aside for the moment that it's as plain as my frustration with life at the moment that certain weapons on certain 'Mechs are specifically designed to be fired in groups. Leaving aside for the moment that eliminating the ability to accurately fire grouped weapons does nothing to balance missile storms, leaving missile-based machines to rise to unquestioned dominance in direct contradiction of the stated goal of any convergence change (i.e. "KILL THE F*&^ING META DEAD!!!)

Leaving aside all of that. Does any of this even sound fun? Does it sound like something a new player would enjoy learning to use, in the case of such tomf&^#ery as "hard-set convergence decided in the MechLab"? Does it sound like it'd be easy to explain to new folks why their targeting crosshair is a loose suggestion of where they might hit if they're lucky, rather than an indication of where their weapons fire is going?

Would you really rather have any of this can't-hit-what-you-aim-at crap in place of Ghost Heat? Because I'm telling you right now - I'd rather keep the arbitrary, annoying, completely opaque alpha limiting system we already have than try to rip it out and substitute an arbitrary, annoying, completely opaque alpha limiting system.

That was beautiful

[1ka Musume]

Alistair Winter, on 20 January 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

assault mech AC20/ppc/gauss

Theese weapons are made to dominate... Get used to it or go back to TT.

2OP. You are just wasting people time with stupid ideas.

[Mcgral18]

1ka Musume, on 20 January 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

Theese weapons are made to dominate... Get used to it or go back to TT.

2OP. You are just wasting people time with stupid ideas.

How constructive.