1126 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Heffay, on 21 January 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

I want arm mounted weapons to have convergence (instant is fine, because limited firepower) but torso/head weapons to have a fixed (user defined, manually configurable) range.

How about in order to have perfect convergence on arms, you must have upper AND lower arm actuators.

(AC/40 builds I'm looking at you....)

[Gallowglas]

It would have to be handled VERY delicately before I'd support a "fix" to convergence. If handled incorrectly, you could end up with a system that's arbitrary, random, cumbersome, unintuitive, or which clutter the UI all of which are elements the game doesn't need.

[Heffay]

Hotthedd, on 21 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

How about in order to have perfect convergence on arms, you must have upper AND lower arm actuators.

(AC/40 builds I'm looking at you....)

Doesn't make sense for Jagermechs though. I'm choosing game play over realism also.

[cSand]

We should have 1 reticle for each weapon group, and you need to play the game with 6 mouses, 1 for each reticle

IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO BALANCE

Edited by cSand, 21 January 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Heffay, on 21 January 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

Doesn't make sense for Jagermechs though. I'm choosing game play over realism also.

You could still aim one shot at a time, just not on an alpha strike.

[cSand]

Alpha is a valid part of Mechwarrior and always has been

[Hotthedd]

cSand, on 21 January 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Alpha is a valid part of Mechwarrior and always has been

Even an alpha in TT was just firing all your weapons over 10 seconds, AND they probably would not all hit the same spot.

Perfect insta-convergence PPFLD alphas are a bad game mechanic for MechWarrior, regardless of whether or not it was used in MW1, 2, 3, or 4. Just because it was used before, does not make it good.

[pyrocomp]

1453 R, on 20 January 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Define 'Alpha'.

Nobody seems to be able to do that.

If I'm in a Warhawk-Prime and I fire my two left-arm C-ERPPCs at that Locust, taking the time to lead my shots and put them where they need to go, should I be rewarded with hitting that Locust? With both PPCs? I believe I should, because landing C-ERPPC shots at 1000m against a Locust-sized, Locust-speed target is not really in any way 'Easy Mode'. Convergence proposal guys believe I should not, because I had the sheer, unadulterated gall to fire more than one weapon at a time, and most convergence proposals I've seen are effectively attempting to force chainfire.

Most convergence proposals I've seen would have the pair of medium lasers in my old Victors' left arms hitting completely different locations of an enemy 'Mech, within optimal medium laser range - if they even both hit the target at all. Most convergence proposals I've seen would have the quartet of lasers in most Timber Wolves' arms hitting three separate locations on an enemy 'Mech, while the fourth laser typically misses altogether. This is, of course, if the convergence proposal in question does not assume that gimbaled weapon mounts are a thing and figure that torso-mounted weaponry should be hard-bolted to the chassis and thus impossible to aim. Those guys want to bring back arm weapon mounts as important, but still seem to feel the need to attach separate cones of fire to different weapons in the same location, in order to artificially mitigate the player's ability to put fire on target. Unless, of course, they fire in chainfire mode, at which point they may regain some-but-not-all of the accuracy they lost.

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that tracking anywhere between four and ten completely different reticle aimpoints, on average, would turn the targeting system HUD into an undecipherable mess. Leaving aside for the moment that it's as plain as my frustration with life at the moment that certain weapons on certain 'Mechs are specifically designed to be fired in groups. Leaving aside for the moment that eliminating the ability to accurately fire grouped weapons does nothing to balance missile storms, leaving missile-based machines to rise to unquestioned dominance in direct contradiction of the stated goal of any convergence change (i.e. "KILL THE F*&^ING META DEAD!!!)

Leaving aside all of that. Does any of this even sound fun? Does it sound like something a new player would enjoy learning to use, in the case of such tomf&^#ery as "hard-set convergence decided in the MechLab"? Does it sound like it'd be easy to explain to new folks why their targeting crosshair is a loose suggestion of where they might hit if they're lucky, rather than an indication of where their weapons fire is going?

Would you really rather have any of this can't-hit-what-you-aim-at crap in place of Ghost Heat? Because I'm telling you right now - I'd rather keep the arbitrary, annoying, completely opaque alpha limiting system we already have than try to rip it out and substitute an arbitrary, annoying, completely opaque alpha limiting system.

Ok, let me put it that way. I'm not against you hitting the moving Locust at 1000 m distance with your ERPPCs. I'm against you hitting same pixel on that Locust at that distance. E.g. some spread. I cannot compare the present day shooters, haven't run thaem for many years, but comparing to the LB-X the spread should be lower. You, with perfect lead and shot placement still have high chance to have both ERPPCs hit, but the chances that they will hit same leg of abovementioned Locust are very low (but not zero). So it's not the 'pair of medium lasers in my old Victors' left arms hitting completely different locations of an enemy 'Mech, within optimal medium laser range', but mind the distance. Easy mode not in hitting with both ERPPCs, but with hitting the same pixel with both. So, I think, thi is not a 'can't-hit-what-you-aim-at crap', do you agree?

And yes, some other way to make pinpoint damage above 20-30 really hard would've been good, but not at the current level of `Mech damage and heat model, or even weapons mechanics. WIth more complex models even the GH probably could become redudant.

[ollo]

Tahribator, on 21 January 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

I also do not want to get rid of convergence. Especially a "cone-of-fire solution" is a reason to quit this game for me. I am however, open to other solutions like "non-instant" convergence or simply fixed convergence for torso hardpoints that can be set manually.

Well, it was convergence over time in beta. That's also where the respective pilot skills came from - i don't know why this was changed, perhaps because it gives lights effectively 4x armor as weapons won't converge on them.

[cSand]

ollo, on 21 January 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

Well, it was convergence over time in beta. That's also where the respective pilot skills came from - i don't know why this was changed, perhaps because it gives lights effectively 4x armor as weapons won't converge on them.

It changed cause it was messing with the server big time

[Lockon StratosII]

I am starting to sound like a broken record here but: Homeless Bills TCL idea is the best solution for this, if you don't like the cone of fire offset in it, you can simply trade it for parallel shooting weapons when penalized so there is no "randomness" of any kind (shameless self promotion: look at thread I made last year about that)

[Yokaiko]

Lockon StratosII, on 21 January 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

I am starting to sound like a broken record here but: Homeless Bills TCL idea is the best solution for this, if you don't like the cone of fire offset in it, you can simply trade it for parallel shooting weapons when penalized so there is no "randomness" of any kind (shameless self promotion: look at thread I made last year about that)

We were making threads about it on CB

[Lockon StratosII]

@Yokaiko ah yes, it seems like it was yesterday when someone decided to strap 2 gauss rifles on K2 and open this can of worms

[Psydotek]

Get rid of convergence? No.

Get rid of instant convergence? YES!

Convergence should take time, even afew seconds. Hold your reticle over the target, wait for convergence to occur, then fire. Or fire early knowing that not all shots will be on target.

Heck, maybe even give some weapons better convergence speeds (small lasers converge faster than PPCs or AC/20s) and/or give certain 'mechs convergence speed quirks.

[Lightfoot]

No, Convergence is a feature to promote players to learn ....the Skill of Mech Piloting!

An experienced Mech Pilot knows that only identical weapons can converge into the same location if they are moving laterally due to the weapons all having different travel times. That's why the Mech has Torso-Twist. So you can move laterally and keep your opponent targeted at the same time!

And you know what? It works even at short range for Assault Class mechs. I use it and my mechs are completely torn apart before they give out, every section at least orange or red.

Identical weapons are blocked from firing too many at the same time without a large heat penalty from GHOST HEAT. ooo... scary! Talk to PGI if you want more Ghost Heat for the weapon you fear.

So don't ask for a nerf or removal of one of the greatest features of MechWarrior, Mech Piloting Skill.

If you hate Convergence the power is already in your hands to remove it almost entirely..... Move laterally to your opponent!

[Gorgo7]

Convergence per say doesn't bother me at all.
If, however, they were to make a change I would vote to abolish convergence UNLESS one has a lock.
Currently convergence is wherever your crosshairs rest.
At 1000m or 50m where the crosshairs rest, they converge.
It is less of a big deal then some would have you believe. Indeed, different velocities go along way towards breaking convergence.

[operatorZ]

Lightfoot, on 21 January 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

No, Convergence is a feature to promote players to learn ....the Skill of Mech Piloting!

An experienced Mech Pilot knows that only identical weapons can converge into the same location if they are moving laterally due to the weapons all having different travel times. That's why the Mech has Torso-Twist. So you can move laterally and keep your opponent targeted at the same time!

And you know what? It works even at short range for Assault Class mechs. I use it and my mechs are completely torn apart before they give out, every section at least orange or red.

Identical weapons are blocked from firing too many at the same time without a large heat penalty from GHOST HEAT. ooo... scary! Talk to PGI if you want more Ghost Heat for the weapon you fear.

So don't ask for a nerf or removal of one of the greatest features of MechWarrior, Mech Piloting Skill.

If you hate Convergence the power is already in your hands to remove it almost entirely..... Move laterally to your opponent!

it shall be noted that this does not apply to "boats" or "boating" as some call it...the problem in the first place.

I fail to see how convergence is "feature" that teaches skill...the opposite is true IMHO
should it be removed entirely or even halfly? NO.
Could it be tweaked to add *some* realism, better weapon balance, more variety of load outs and add a higher skill ceiling? YES

[Ultimax]

I don't have a problem with convergence.

[Malleus011]

I'd like to see convergence gone and a variety of alternate solutions tried on Public Test.

[zagibu]

I haven't heard of and can't think of any solutions, that, combined in any way, would improve the current situation without leading to new problems.

Cone of fire: if the spread is based on heat, it doesn't help with alpha strikes, if the spread is based on movement, it leads to more camping, because someone who stands still has better aim than someone who moves, and doesn't actually fix the problem, because the worst offenders aren't moving much anyway. Spread based on weapons fired in X amount of time would only limit certain builds and leave others unaffected. Full random spread reduces the skill factor.

Fixed/manual convergence: messes only with some builds while leaving other builds unchanged

Automatic slow convergence: doesn't help as much as people think (you can still achieve almost 100% convergence by aiming at map terrain where you know enemy will come from) while increasing network traffic a lot, because it would have to be validated or could easily be exploited by cheaters

Recoil: only nerfs certain weapon systems and has no effect on alpha strikes anyways

Hard limit on amount of X type of weapons that can be fired at the same time: another intransparent ruleset like ghost heat that is hard to balance and will let a few builds through the slips

The only way to improve the situation is in my signature: we simply need other things to shoot at. PPFLD isn't good against many weak targets. If you build a PPFLD mech, you will rock against other mechs, but suck against AI units.

Edited by zagibu, 21 January 2015 - 05:14 PM.