1126 replies to this topic

[Quxudica]

MrMadguy, on 11 April 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

Lol. Parts of 'Mech, destroyable separately, making hundreds of armor useless (cuz you can be killed via headshoot) - that's what turns MW into sim, not superovercomlicated game mechanics. It would be turned into arcade only via replacing armor with HP. You should clearly understand the difference between "challenge" and "bad game design". Overcomplicated and counterintuitive game mechanics are not "challenging" or "realistic" - they are just simple BAD GAME DESIGN. Wanna play WWII flight sim - go play WWII flight sim.

MWO does use HP as armor, it just gives each part its own health bar. Non HP true armor is something like War Thunder, where if you don't use the right ammunition at the right angle in the right spot your shell can just bounce off the enemy tank doing literally no damage.

MWO makes lip service to being a sim, but it's just a slightly more complicated Hawken and nothing more as much as some people like to pretend otherwise.

Edited by Quxudica, 11 April 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Quxudica, on 11 April 2015 - 01:06 AM, said:

MWO does use HP as armor, it just gives each part its own health bar. Non HP true armor is something like War Thunder, where if you don't use the right ammunition at the right angle in the right spot your shell can just bounce off the enemy tank doing literally no damage.

MWO makes lip service to being a sim, but it's just a slightly more complicated Hawken and nothing more as much as some people like to pretend otherwise.

I meant just one HP bar for whole 'Mech. More armor => more HP => more survivability. As simple as that. Like it works with Lights now, who managing to spread all damage to their entire armor due to terrible hitreg.

Edited by MrMadguy, 11 April 2015 - 01:10 AM.

[Quxudica]

MrMadguy, on 11 April 2015 - 01:09 AM, said:

I meant just one HP bar for whole 'Mech. More armor => more HP => more survivability. As simple as that. Like it works with Lights now, who managing to spread all damage to their entire armor due to terrible hitreg.

Like I said, lip service. MWO isn't a sim, it's barely a sim-lite. I don't need MWO to be some ARMA III level hardcore simulation, but I really want some more depth than it has right now.

[MrMadguy]

The biggest problem of this game is not pinpoint dmg - the biggest problem is terrible MM. Why? The amazing magic of MMR-based game is that...it doesn't actually need to be perfectly balanced! If you're using super effective meta build and performing well due to this, then you simply should not be matched against player like me, who is playing for fun and prefers diverse in his build - you have to be put against the same meta players, as you are. You're using 100500 pinpoint dmg 'Mech? Be ready to get the same in return. That's why MWO's MM sucks so hard. DireWhales, TimberGods, Stormstompers are OP? Then why I'm facing them, when I'm playing my overgimped Awesome??? Put them against each other - problem solved!

[Quxudica]

MrMadguy, on 11 April 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

The biggest problem of this game is not pinpoint dmg - the biggest problem is terrible MM. Why? The amazing magic of MMR-based game is that...it doesn't actually need to be perfectly balanced! If you're using super effective meta build and performing well due to this, then you simply should not be matched against player like me, who is playing for fun and prefers diverse in his build - you have to be put against the same meta players, as you are. You're using 100500 pinpoint dmg 'Mech? Be ready to get the same in return. That's why MWO's MM sucks so hard. DireWhales, TimberGods, Stormstompers are OP? Then why I'm facing them, when I'm playing my overgimped Awesome??? Put them against each other - problem solved!

Match Making is an issue yes, but so are accuracy and the heat system. Even if we had perfect match making, we'd still have the same game play problems resulting in the same combat treading water in the shallow end of the pool. The lack of depth in MWO is systemic, and the mech building zeitgeist clearly illustrates this. Every mech is built like a front line assault, with damage dealing it's primary focus. This is caused by a lack of options when it comes to non-weapon based equipment, and a lack of need for any role not dedicated to dealing damage. It's exacerbated by the limited scope of support equipment available and the fact that most of that equipment can be carried by any mech in the game just as an after thought if so desired.

The game is entirely centered around dealing damage as fast as possible, because nothing exists in the game to counter that design ethos. If you reduce the ability to deliver massive bursts of damage quickly, thus increasing mech durability indirectly (without doubling armor again) you open up the possibility of trading out some weapons or ammo for support gear - since you no longer need that massive alpha to remain competitive. If you add more gear associated with support that perform valuable functions, you give players a reason to not bring that extra laser or to not boat another cannon, you increase choice and diversify gameplay. If you at a layer of depth to the heat system, changing it from a binary one into a graduated one, you add something the pilot has to think about beyond waiting an extra second or two to alpha strike again.

Complexity done right is not a bad thing, depth and nuance create interesting game play. Something having layers, and requiring thought be invested, does not make it convoluted.

As an example: Path of Exile has a convoluted loot system, the result of being overly complex. I won't explain it all but suffice it to say that loot drops are subject to multiple levels of RNG before being usable in your build.

conversely, a simple layer of complexity in MWO would be changing the heat system to refelect heat penalties. It's not hard to understand that running above 70% heat for an extended period of time will start to reduce your mechs performance - making you slower, less maneuverable and risk ammo explosions. It's an easy to understand and intuitive addition, but increases the nuance in combat by adding something to think about beyond "will this shot shut me down for a couple seconds".

Edited by Quxudica, 11 April 2015 - 01:47 AM.

[PFC Carsten]

Would be an easy solution to allow pinpoint only for absolutely standing still mechs and introduce just a little bit of random jitter (really just a tiny bit) for walking speed and a bit more for moving full speed?

[MrMadguy]

Quxudica, on 11 April 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

Match Making is an issue yes, but so are accuracy and the heat system. Even if we had perfect match making, we'd still have the same game play problems resulting in the same combat treading water in the shallow end of the pool. The lack of depth in MWO is systemic, and the mech building zeitgeist clearly illustrates this. Every mech is built like a front line assault, with damage dealing it's primary focus. This is caused by a lack of options when it comes to non-weapon based equipment, and a lack of need for any role not dedicated to dealing damage. It's exacerbated by the limited scope of support equipment available and the fact that most of that equipment can be carried by any mech in the game just as an after thought if so desired.

The game is entirely centered around dealing damage as fast as possible, because nothing exists in the game to counter that design ethos. If you reduce the ability to deliver massive bursts of damage quickly, thus increasing mech durability indirectly (without doubling armor again) you open up the possibility of trading out some weapons or ammo for support gear - since you no longer need that massive alpha to remain competitive. If you add more gear associated with support that perform valuable functions, you give players a reason to not bring that extra laser or to not boat another cannon, you increase choice and diversify gameplay. If you at a layer of depth to the heat system, changing it from a binary one into a graduated one, you add something the pilot has to think about beyond waiting an extra second or two to alpha strike again.

Complexity done right is not a bad thing, depth and nuance create interesting game play. Something having layers, and requiring thought be invested, does not make it convoluted.

As an example: Path of Exile has a convoluted loot system, the result of being overly complex. I won't explain it all but suffice it to say that loot drops are subject to multiple levels of RNG before being usable in your build.

conversely, a simple layer of complexity in MWO would be changing the heat system to refelect heat penalties. It's not hard to understand that running above 70% heat for an extended period of time will start to reduce your mechs performance - making you slower, less maneuverable and risk ammo explosions. It's an easy to understand and intuitive addition, but increases the nuance in combat by adding something to think about beyond "will this shot shut me down for a couple seconds".

Then implementing Shield Generators to absorb Alpha dmg - is the best idea, I guess. But be ready for Lights' cries, cuz they will no longer be able to kill Heavy/Assault 1vs1. (As I said in other thread - for me gameplay >> lore, so I don't care, why they can't be implemented due to some lore reasons)

Edited by MrMadguy, 11 April 2015 - 05:39 AM.

[Sarlic]

Main problem this game have too many problems to begin with.

Poor design choices in the past made us stand where we at now. The heatscale, the introduction of ELO, convergence and the whole system of pin point damage. There's alot of to be named.

I don't see a easy solution on the short team unfortunatly.

Edited by Sarlic, 11 April 2015 - 06:15 AM.

[DefinitelyNotMwHighlander]

Khobai, on 10 April 2015 - 10:06 PM, said:

cone of fire randomness has no place in the game whatsoever

I already presented several non-random solutions to pinpoint damage.

plus you know we could try fixing the highly flawed heat system...

To be honest, any solution to replace the current super pin-point convergence AND restructure of the heat system/heat penalties is required.

The heat system especially!

[Hotthedd]

xImmortalx, on 10 April 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

That's not necessarily a bad thing though. In an FPS, a skilled player has a much higher influence on the outcome of a game than in MWO. So making certain aspects of the individual game more challenging makes sense. One of the most frustrating things about MWO is how utterly dependent an individual pilot is on his teammates to accomplish anything and how minor team mistakes can negate flawless execution on the part of the pilot. With that in mind, do you think it's a good idea to raise the bar for gunnery skill?

Yes!

That is EXACTLY what I would like to see. If more thought and planning had to go into landing a perfect alpha, or even to hit a small section with multiple weapons, then those that do it WOULD be entitled to a sense of pride when they do it. I do not think hitting the same section with 2 gauss rifles simultaneously should be impossible, just pretty difficult. 8 pulse lasers simultaneously in a single section? Only ACTUALLY skilled pilots would even ATTEMPT it. Like you said, insta-gibbing is entirely too easy in this game, and fixing this issue would actually SAVE time over the buff/nerf rollercoaster and convoluted Band-Aid solutions we keep getting.

New players should have access to a fully functional tutorial, or even a PvE campaign to start the game (and possibly make enough c-bills for their own starter mech)

All we have in the game right now is single death matches, and the grind for C-bills, XP, GXP. There is nothing else. There is no progression beyond that. Even CW right now is nothing but a different deathmatch game. Who cares if a planet flips? What effect does that have on the game? Nothing.

Therefore, all we have is a shooter. At LEAST make it more challenging, increasing average TTK, but truly good pilots would end up being names you look for on the battlefield. Right now, any fool can alpha strike anyone with a minimum of effort. To ME, that is neither MechWarrior nor a "good" game.

[Dino Might]

Dimento Graven, on 10 April 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

At least with "jumping" and with "heat" there's something more behind why the RNG is activated, something more than just "REASONS!!! math, science, reality"...

Fixed it for you. Heat was part of my recommendation for one of the inputs to CoF, if you remember. It's actually one of the primary factors, when you consider what kind of angular deviation a gimbal-mounted weapon could have. It's the reason our precision laser arrays in real life are usually liquid cooled and kept at constant temperature, to prevent thermal expansions from causing resultant random deviations in the actual point of aim.

So, are you finally coming around on RnG actually being a reasonable input into the game? The JJ CoF effect is a bit extreme for what I was considering, but it's not a bad modeling attempt.

[Mystere]

Dino Might, on 11 April 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

Fixed it for you. Heat was part of my recommendation for one of the inputs to CoF, if you remember. It's actually one of the primary factors, when you consider what kind of angular deviation a gimbal-mounted weapon could have. It's the reason our precision laser arrays in real life are usually liquid cooled and kept at constant temperature, to prevent thermal expansions from causing resultant random deviations in the actual point of aim.

So, are you finally coming around on RnG actually being a reasonable input into the game? The JJ CoF effect is a bit extreme for what I was considering, but it's not a bad modeling attempt.

It looks more like his objection to RNG is selective, depending on whether or not it benefits him.

[Telmasa]

Mystere, on 10 April 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

I think I have an idea on why people have a problem with CoF.

When they see CoF, they immediately think "random" and visualize this, an equal distribution:



when in fact the probability distribution model being proposed by people for CoF (and which mimic real life concepts like CEP and R95) look more like this:



Damn those 3050 engineers! Why can't they produce mechanical devices with absolute 100% precision.

Do Not Want

You can't implement a distribution curve ingame without some kind of randomness being involved - and I specifically do not want random.

I would far rather each weapon have a specific point they will always hit every time they are fired. As someone else has described before in this thread, as long as it's not all the same point, having perfect accuracy & precision isn't a problem.

Mystere, on 10 April 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

I'm really not. I'm here for the convergence discussion.

But, I am also joining in on the CoF discussion anyway, mainly by providing science-based reasons on how such a thing can be justified. And with regard to CoF itself, my interest actually lies in engagements at 1000m and beyond, as it is more or less a non-issue at "typical" engagement ranges of 500m or less. I'm just a sucker for "non-typical" cases.

Unfortunately, the discussion is also being derailed by people whose only rationale for disagreeing is a near-religious belief that "RNG is the Devil and is therefore Evil", and at the same time attributing malice where there is none, and/or declaring that the people suggesting such things are bad players.

I think you really don't understand the evils of RNG. It really is the devil.

Mystere, on 10 April 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

But reticule shake is also implemented by "rolling dice". So I guess it's off to the tabletop you go.

Wait, aren't you saying that this pretty much means we already have RNG implemented in the form of cockpit & reticule shake when we move or jump?

[Mystere]

Telmasa, on 11 April 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

Do Not Want

You can't implement a distribution curve ingame without some kind of randomness being involved - and I specifically do not want random.

I would far rather each weapon have a specific point they will always hit every time they are fired. As someone else has described before in this thread, as long as it's not all the same point, having perfect accuracy & precision isn't a problem.

The distribution curve you ask for implies we will have less of those rare "Oh ****!" moments, which is one of things that makes gaming fun. I am all for something like R95 to allow the possibility of such things.

Telmasa, on 11 April 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

I think you really don't understand the evils of RNG. It really is the devil.

Wait, aren't you saying that this pretty much means we already have RNG implemented in the form of cockpit & reticule shake when we move or jump?

As you have just realized, the Devil already lives amongst us. So why not work with him instead?
<maniacal >

Here's more proof the RNG Devil is already with us: UAC jamming.

Edited by Mystere, 11 April 2015 - 01:45 PM.

[Armorine]

MrMadguy, on 11 April 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

The biggest problem of this game is not pinpoint dmg - the biggest problem is terrible MM. Why? The amazing magic of MMR-based game is that...it doesn't actually need to be perfectly balanced! If you're using super effective meta build and performing well due to this, then you simply should not be matched against player like me, who is playing for fun and prefers diverse in his build - you have to be put against the same meta players, as you are. You're using 100500 pinpoint dmg 'Mech? Be ready to get the same in return. That's why MWO's MM sucks so hard. DireWhales, TimberGods, Stormstompers are OP? Then why I'm facing them, when I'm playing my overgimped Awesome??? Put them against each other - problem solved!

Or you could learn to fight them. I use a battle master 3s with 6 medium pulse lasers and 2 lim 20s almost a stock build. Do not fear dire wolves. Use cover and speed and dires are crunchy

[SweetJackal]

Just going to reaffirm my own position on this. No to Cone Of Fire. Yes to Fixed Convergence.

CoF is a random factor, isn't reliable and in essence lowers the skill ceiling. Games that do include CoF mechanics should be designed from the ground up with CoF in mind, slapping it in anything generally produces poor results.

Putting in Fixed Convergence of some form or another is the way to go in my own opinion. Unlike CoF it allows the same weapon mounted in the same spot on the same mech in the same location aiming at the same point in space to have their fire hit the same point in space time and time again, even if that point in space isn't the same point in space their crosshair is occupied. That level of reliability increases the skill ceiling by making the game expect players to adjust their shots, adds depth to mech building and still keeps the game a "your shots will go where you aim" sort of game by increasing the expectations that the game has of the player for proper aiming.

[Khobai]

Quote

You set up a firing line and it turns into civil war style battle lines until one side breaks. This isn't a thinking man's shooter.

It was much more of a thinking mans shooter when it was 8v8.

12v12 just made the game about deathballing. its about applying maximum pressure to a minimum area. focus fire rules supreme and no other tactic or strategy matters.

[Gorgo7]

Nah 12 v 12 is superior in all ways to 8 v 8.
That statement above would then make 4v4 better than 8v8...also nonsense.
Nostalga. That is it.

[MauttyKoray]

No no no, the problem isn't having convergence, its having permanent, instant convergence. The bandages for these problems have been weapons that spread themselves, missiles, clan ACs which did not help and only caused the meta to be laser vomit, IS ACs, and a small number of viable missile vomit.

Second problem is the heat cap is WAY TOO HIGH. This promotes the high damage/heat alpha builds and ruins the viability of the non-meta mechs. Mechs that are viable are ones who can take a lot of small weapons or a bunch of heavy weapons. Armor/Internals is doubled to compensate for the alpha gameplay problem, and most ammo is also doubled (LRMs 1.5x and SRMS are normal) to compensate for the increased armor. So mechs with a combination of low tonnage and hardpoints are screwed...this is most easily seen with the Vindicator who has only been viable with Dual PPC/Laser vomit and the ballistic build being practically useless.

In conjunction with that, heatsinks are screwed up and doubles don't cool correctly. With a fixed heat cap it could be reverted to provide quick cooling for mechs without being able to alpha because of the lowered heat cap, thus making the whole game better.

[Artgathan]

1453 R, on 10 April 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL A THING

Because some people can't grasp that anyone can beat a poker champion at a single hand, but over enough rounds it becomes apparent who is actually better at poker. Or, that if you make something harder for everyone the people who were good at the old system will still be better at the new system than the people who were bad at the old system.