480 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

Ive said my peace and will now go start my new Alt......Ill let you guys know the name when I get it setup

[Darth Mech]

Yeah, that's been done before and is totally against the laws of war.

http://en.wikipedia....Operation_Greif

Execute them. Better yet, just ignore them. Energy Beings die pretty quickly when they don't get the attention they so desperately crave.

This tactic

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ghost_Army

is legit

You have presented just another example of the "to Hell with everyone else and damn fair play" attitude of Call of Doody EverSores

This is a game. Play nice or go home, I say.

Edited by Darth Mech, 21 January 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[Egomane]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Sure it is, until I and 11 of my buddies start doing it to you...

Feel free, as long as you are not doing it throw matches in your factions favor, have as many accounts as you like and fight for any faction you want, on any boarder you want.

You will not see me making any angry posts about it. For now you'd have a hard time doing it to me anymway, as I am currently not participating in CW matches. I'll wait until we have a system that is a little bit more sophisticated in game mechanics and maps.

[Dimento Graven]

Darth Mech, on 21 January 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Yeah, that's never been done before and is totally against the laws of war.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ghost_Army

(rolls eyes)

Not quite the same thing, and again, those people that actually existed in that unit did still have consequences if they were caught.

Unlike what we have now.

Egomane, on 21 January 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

You will not see me making any angry posts about it. For now you'd have a hard time doing it to me anymway, as I am currently not participating in CW matches. I'll wait until we have a system that is a little bit more sophisticated in game mechanics and maps.

So your opinion matters a lot less than anyone else who is actually currently actively participating in CW...

[Egomane]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

So your opinion matters a lot less than anyone else who is actually currently actively participating in CW...

Because I am a third party with a neutral viewpoint?

No, I get it! You need to vent your anger and you need to do so publicly. If that were not the case you would at least respect the opinion of those who do participate and still tell you that you are overreacting.

[Jman5]

I don't get what the problem is. You tell the Steiner leadership it's not a sanctioned attack and you don't support them in the queue. If the entire Steiner faction can't hold off one group that's splitting their time between two factions, I have zero sympathy.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that anyone can do what they want in CW. Faction organizations are nothing more than a confederation of different units trying to efficiently direct their manpower. If some people don't want to be a part of your confederation, there is nothing to do about it.

[Dimento Graven]

Egomane, on 21 January 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Because I am a third party with a neutral viewpoint?

No, I get it! You need to vent your anger and you need to do so publicly. If that were not the case you would at least respect the opinion of those who do participate and still tell you that you are overreacting.

Just because you happen to have an opinion doesn't make it a valid one, or worth listening to, especially more so when you yourself admit to not having an interest or any participation in the subject being discussed.

I've been considering the opinions of everyone on this forum, but unless you're actually participating in CW, your opinions are not even moot compared to everyone else who is actively participating in CW.

Why should I consider your opinions with the same weight as those of someone who is participating, daily?

[Lukoi Banacek]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

I'm not sure I'm in favor of letting players run factions and create enforceable alliances. I have no issue with players deciding to attack allies of their faction - again, alliances are at best gentlemen agreements between the loyalist members of factions.

My real issue is pretending that doing so is anything but being a petty inconvenience. I get the desire to do that - feel like you're doing something different or special or whatever. Being special and counter-culture or whatever hipster rebel term you want to use. That's great. The reality is though that the big groups and general consensus drive factions and faction tactics overall. If you're dropping in group queue and you're a 2man dropping with a 10man, the 10man gets to call the tactics. Even if you don't agree it's pretty stupid to be a 2man running off and doing your own thing.

Then again the 10man probably wasn't counting on the 2man of renegade pug-esque guys to do anything useful for winning the match anyway.

CW is no different. The big units and player made councils are going to decide the direction of their relative factions. That is what it is. If you work with them you can be part of the success of the faction. You work against the overall faction direction then you're a minor inconvenience and everyone, your faction or others, is going to remember you as a largely useless bunch of twits but whatever. What you're not going to do is significantly derail what the big groups are doing. It's just a matter of wanting to be useful vs wanting to feel like a cool hipster rebel outcast rambo pug, or whatever your motivation is.

So why all of the angst about.

No one has managed to come to grips with my earlier point on this....I get that the use of an alternate account is somehow a stick in the craw for some, but folks can still contact them via PM etc to try and sway them to observe the player driven ceasefire.

When EU players ran counter to the NA majority (alleged majority) in CSJ, it wasnt the EU griefing the rest of CSJ.

When a merc group arrived into CSJ with the publically declared intent to destabilize things along the CGB border, no one in CSJ could force them not to attack CGB. We could attempt to convince them to stop and we could elect to not support them with our numbers. Even with one team's declared intent to destabilize things, that is not griefing.

But here it is somehow griefing? The attack lane is open. You assume because they are likely alt accounts that they have some nefarious goal to "grief" you but you have no idea their intentions or reasoning. Maybe they just want fights with Steiner? Maybe they dont know about your ceasefire....as PGI has noted in the past, forumites make up a small percentage of the overall playerbase.

Regardless....if they attack planets without exploiting, cheating etc.....it isnt griefing. It is either ignorance of your player driven ceasefire or simply not caring about it.

I didnt appreciate CSJ players telling mercs they "couldnt" fight who they wanted due to the ceasefire, regardless of the fact that I didnt support those merc actions. How I want to play (ceasefire with CGB) is different to that merc unit (attacking CGB), but I dont feel entitled to tell them how to play.

Majority or not you dont own your faction, so dont be surprised when you have outliers.

[Dimento Graven]

Jman5, on 21 January 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

I don't get what the problem is. You tell the Steiner leadership it's not a sanctioned attack and you don't support them in the queue. If the entire Steiner faction can't hold off one group that's splitting their time between two factions, I have zero sympathy.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that anyone can do what they want in CW. Faction organizations are nothing more than a confederation of different units trying to efficiently direct their manpower. If some people don't want to be a part of your confederation, there is nothing to do about it.

The fact that Steiner tried ignoring them until they'd go away, and that didn't happen until Steiner had basically lost the planet to turret runs, and then when confronting these throw away accounts, they did nothing but played a delaying game keeping a full unit of Stiener regulars tied up, away from the clan front, to trying and regain the planet.

And no, we shouldn't have to live with idiotic buffoons who, unable to win on their ACTUAL front decide to create throw away accounts in an attempt to disrupt their actual enemy in effort to gain an undeserved upper hand.

Again, you'll be fine with it, until it starts happening to you...

[Darth Mech]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Not quite the same thing, and again, those people that actually existed in that unit did still have consequences if they were caught.

Unlike what we have now.

Sorry, I got my references mixed up and edited my original post to reflect what I actually meant to convey. You beat me to the punch: I agree with you. I still think that ignoring these miscreants is the best response, even if it costs a planet or two. They'll starve soon enough and get tired of their charade when they don't get the attention they want.

Which brings me to another point, I think that shenanigans like this are best met with strategies developed within FedCom as opposed to giving them more attention in a public forum. You're just feeding the Energy Beings this way. That makes them stronger.

Edited by Darth Mech, 21 January 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jman5, on 21 January 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

I don't get what the problem is. You tell the Steiner leadership it's not a sanctioned attack and you don't support them in the queue. If the entire Steiner faction can't hold off one group that's splitting their time between two factions, I have zero sympathy.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that anyone can do what they want in CW. Faction organizations are nothing more than a confederation of different units trying to efficiently direct their manpower. If some people don't want to be a part of your confederation, there is nothing to do about it.

I think this is the problem. There is nothing that can be done about it. In Canon something can be done about it. And generally does get done about it. Sooner or later. But as there is no actual Command/board to grieve to It's being brought here to discuss.

Dimento may be a touch to passionate, but I understand his angst. BUT there ARE cases of Dukes hauling off and starting a war without the sovereign's authorization in the fiction. Just in those stories the Boss does eventually get to put the boot down. WIll it get to happen here and if so by Whom?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 January 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Lukoi Banacek, on 21 January 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

So why all of the angst about.

No one has managed to come to grips with my earlier point on this....I get that the use of an alternate account is somehow a stick in the craw for some, but folks can still contact them via PM etc to try and sway them to observe the player driven ceasefire.

When EU players ran counter to the NA majority (alleged majority) in CSJ, it wasnt the EU griefing the rest of CSJ.

When a merc group arrived into CSJ with the publically declared intent to destabilize things along the CGB border, no one in CSJ could force them not to attack CGB. We could attempt to convince them to stop and we could elect to not support them with our numbers. Even with one team's declared intent to destabilize things, that is not griefing.

But here it is somehow griefing? The attack lane is open. You assume because they are likely alt accounts that they have some nefarious goal to "grief" you but you have no idea their intentions or reasoning. Maybe they just want fights with Steiner? Maybe they dont know about your ceasefire....as PGI has noted in the past, forumites make up a small percentage of the overall playerbase.

Regardless....if they attack planets without exploiting, cheating etc.....it isnt griefing. It is either ignorance of your player driven ceasefire or simply not caring about it.

I didnt appreciate CSJ players telling mercs they "couldnt" fight who they wanted due to the ceasefire, regardless of the fact that I didnt support those merc actions. How I want to play (ceasefire with CGB) is different to that merc unit (attacking CGB), but I dont feel entitled to tell them how to play.

Majority or not you dont own your faction, so dont be surprised when you have outliers.

No angst, I absolutely get you can't stop them. Be it players doing false flag work or just mercs wanting to feel cool and special, people can attack on any border they want. I don't favor letting players make actual enforced treaties.

My only comment was people trying to justify it though as either A) being a traitor and trying to make trouble for your faction or B ) someone trying to be a cool hipster rebel snowflake.

Also the would-be group B and even group A folks should be honest that they're not going to create a significant disruption. No alliances are going to get broken. Group A would actually be more useful fighting directly for their faction and group B rightly deserves some mocking laughter but no real time and energy expended.

I don't consider it cheating though nor do I think there needs to be some hard-coded limit to prevent it. Things like that tend to just beg to be abused.

[Revis Volek]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

The fact that Steiner tried ignoring them until they'd go away, and that didn't happen until Steiner had basically lost the planet to turret runs, and then when confronting these throw away accounts, they did nothing but played a delaying game keeping a full unit of Stiener regulars tied up, away from the clan front, to trying and regain the planet.

And no, we shouldn't have to live with idiotic buffoons who, unable to win on their ACTUAL front decide to create throw away accounts in an attempt to disrupt their actual enemy in effort to gain an undeserved upper hand.

Again, you'll be fine with it, until it starts happening to you...

Who says it isn't happening all over the map already?

You are grasping at straws to try to make your case sound legit. There is no reason ANYONE has to play the PGI's game and THEIR accounts the way you tell them to.

Its a game bro....relax. Also how do you know it was turret wins? Or is that more hyperbole to make your case seem legit? I have had like 7 Turret drops in the 30 plus days of CW. They dont happen that often....

[Willard Phule]

Almond Brown, on 21 January 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

Sure many would go for that, but it would require Travels times to make things "real". Dropship to Jumpship at Nadir Point 5-7 days. Jumpship max jump 30 LY, Dropships from Nadir to Orbit, 5-7 days.

So let's tell PGI to go for it.

Then you tell your Team to load into their Dropships and head to the Jumpships today and then after a roughly 10-15 day travel period, be ready as they will be attacking enemy Planet XYZ. Return to base travel time, also 10-15 days...

No less than the travel time for Liao units to backstop Kurita units on the line with the Clans. Let's add travel time for Marik, Liao and some of the Steiner and Davion units as well.

[Jman5]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

The fact that Steiner tried ignoring them until they'd go away, and that didn't happen until Steiner had basically lost the planet to turret runs, and then when confronting these throw away accounts, they did nothing but played a delaying game keeping a full unit of Stiener regulars tied up, away from the clan front, to trying and regain the planet.

And no, we shouldn't have to live with idiotic buffoons who, unable to win on their ACTUAL front decide to create throw away accounts in an attempt to disrupt their actual enemy in effort to gain an undeserved upper hand.

Again, you'll be fine with it, until it starts happening to you...

I was in FRR before this and Merc units from Steiner did exactly this. FRR and Steiner had a ceasefire, but two big merc units that also fight for Ghost Bear started ghosting planets on our border. So we pulled off the GB front to fight them. Was it an inconvenience? Sure, but that's just how Community Warfare is set up.

If Steiner can't even be bothered to fight off one group then they deserve to lose the planet. Especially when they have two major merc units fighting for them this week. I mean what do you care if you gain a couple of free planets from Steiner?

This is silly, I don't know why I even bothered posting in this thread.

Edited by Jman5, 21 January 2015 - 11:09 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

DarthRevis, on 21 January 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Who says it isn't happening all over the map already?

You are grasping at straws to try to make your case sound legit. There is no reason ANYONE has to play the PGI's game and THEIR accounts the way you tell them to.

Its a game bro....relax. Also how do you know it was turret wins? Or is that more hyperbole to make your case seem legit? I have had like 7 Turret drops in the 30 plus days of CW. They dont happen that often....

Yeah, yeah "it's a game", oh but out the other side of your mouth "it's war stuff like that happens", and "you can't tell me what to do", blah blah blah...

You can relax, until it starts happening to you, then we'll see.

Jman5, on 21 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

I was in FRR before this and Merc units from Steiner did exactly this. FRR and Steiner had a ceasefire, but two big merc units that also fight for Ghost Bear started ghosting planets on our border. So we pulled off the GB front to fight them. Was it an inconvenience? Sure, but that's just how Community Warfare is set up.

And how do you know they were Ghost Bear alts?

Quote

If Steiner can't even be bothered to fight off one group then they deserve to lose the planet. Especially when they have two major merc units fighting for them this week. I mean what do you care if you gain a couple of free planets from Steiner?

This is silly, I don't know why I even bothered posting in this thread.

It's not that they couldn't be bothered, they initially started out with the "Let's ignore them, they'll get bored and go away" policy that so many foolish and or arrogantly ignorant people in this thread had suggested, only, they didn't get bored. They kept doing turret runs until the planet was upwards of 80% before Steiner finally came in to fight them off, only by this time it was near the cease fire and the idiots just played to delay the Steiner unit as much as possible, keeping them away from the clan border.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 January 2015 - 11:14 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

I think this is the problem. There is nothing that can be done about it. In Canon something can be done about it. And generally does get done about it. Sooner or later. But as there is no actual Command/board to grieve to It's being brought here to discuss.

Dimento may be a touch to passionate, but I understand his angst. BUT there ARE cases of Dukes hauling off and starting a war without the sovereign's authorization in the fiction. Just in those stories the Boss does eventually get to put the boot down. WIll it get to happen here and if so by Whom?

Except in this case the "boss" ie Hanse Davion ((played by a computer in this game so maybe his ticker doesn't suck)) made it possible for the attack to happen my selecting a Steiner planet as being one that gives attackers loyalty and cbill rewards for victory on.

[Vlad Ward]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

The difference for the merc is reputation - there's a lot of opportunities for great merc groups and their members. A merc group that is effectively shafting the long term goals of the faction it's working for is not making friends with everyone who actually plays for that faction with the intent of 'winning' for that faction. This means less support from other groups and less respect for that group overall. Even from other factions; who wants a group that just makes drama and sandbags their team to play for them? Not to mention the increased odds of someone from your own faction actively taking steps to leave you in a bad place on the field. 'Whoops, was I standing behind you and pinning you in that LRM fire? How clumsy of me'. A merc unit who's shafting the faction they're working for has every reason to expect the actual loyalists to that faction to seek some sort of retribution.

So in the long term it behooves merc units to actually do their best to help the faction they are fighting for and that factions long term goals. It looks like there are 'faction loyalist' perks on the way and mechanics related to faction loyalists offering perks to merc units (was in the original goals and was reiterated in one of the town halls). Essentially ways for units to spend unit coffers to pay merc units for example. A merc unit with a bad reputation is going to see less of that.

If all a merc unit wants is more drops and more action why not play in the group queue? Not trying to be dismissive, being very honest here. CW both in scope and concept is about more than just grinding missions, cbills and LP. It's wars between factions. If you're actively working against the long term success of your faction because you're a traitor that's one thing. Doing it because you're bored....

that's the pug losing in the long run. He may think he's going to 'catch those LRM boats alone' and once in a blue moon he might even do it. In the long run though he's damaging the success of his team and everyone who sees him is going to think 'oh, it's that guy. He's worthless, let's use him as a meat shield'. That's not how a merc unit is successful in the long run.

Besides, they're not 'opening fronts'. For example the recent events with people from Steiner and Davion attacking across their borders isn't going to open a Steiner/Davion conflict. It's just inconvenienced a few people. In context of whoever from Davion was dropping against Steiner, if someone wanted to ghost drop and try to get their name on a planet they could have done so on an active front, this was just stupid. It's going to waste time for some 12mans later today or tomorrow to fix things between both factions or they may just ignore it. The Davion mercs in question could have made 10x as much dropping against actual live drops with Marik or Liao. This was just someone either wanting to be an irritation or wanting attention or even just terribly confused. At best they accomplished a minor irritation, more to the point they accomplished wasting other peoples time.

Which is the biggest issue I guess. It's why people treat it like griefing - it's not that there's some danger of a conflict or broken alliance. That's not going to happen due to someone doing something like that. It's just someone actively trying to waste other peoples time, either because they are bored or want attention or want to feel they did something interesting or for whatever reason they may have to want to do so. There's no benefit in it for them other than, well, being a minor irritation.

Actual legit merc units going wherever they get paid? Sure, I can see that. It's not what's being discussed here though. Also, wouldn't you make more money defending another Clan faction than ghost dropping?

This thread exploded after I went to sleep, so I'll try to keep my responses limited to the points you brought up here with the understanding that I haven't read the following 7 pages.

First off, regarding unit reputation, this sounds nice in theory but in practice I think we're both aware that peperception means more than actual actions on the internet. Because I happen to take a vocal laissez-faire attitude on the forums, there are a fair number of people who are going to assume that me and my unit run around ghost dropping ceasefire worlds whether we actually do or not.

Likewise, we're simply not a new group of players, so a fair portion of the community (or at least the portion of the community we care about) has already formed opinions about us. There are people who like us and people who don't like us. There are also people who don't care about us at all. We know who they are. Those opinions won't change one way or another regardless of our actions on the CW map.

I can't speak to the davion fronts because I'm not playing them right now, but I can tell you that with the new call to arms improvements in game we have personally seen fronts open because of small groups and even single 12 man's in csj. For example, we thought it'd be interesting to test their efficacy by attacking a CGB world from csj around an hour before ceare fire (minimal danger of planet flipping). Not only did we manage to play 3 matches against actual players with zero ghost drops, but the queue managed to hit 30-ish on both sides before the reset - composed entirely of pugs and random small unit groups.

We've all heard the "Just play normal drops" line before, but frankly Invasion is just more fun as a game mode. In an average game, I can walk away with 700k in ~20 minutes of eating IS pugs either solo or with a lance or so from my unit. It's good money, and it's fun. There's no reason to play in the normal queue and grind the same **** we've been grinding for years. It's boring.

People talk like attacking these peaceful factions amounts to ghost dropping. To be honest, I have never ghost dropped more than when I was playing davion and following their ceasefire rules.

The end goal for faction units is to make peace where they can so they can overwhelm the enemies they still have with superior numbers. Their ideal situation is one where they outnumber the enemy on contested worlds, as this is when they're most likely to hold or take planets.

Conversely, the ideal situation for mercs is one where the enemy actually outnumbers them on contested worlds, as this leads to faster/instant queues, more matches, and more money over time. Nothing is more annoying than sitting 20 minutes in a defense queue because your faction has 60+ defenders to handle 30 attackers.

I can empathize with where factions are coming from, and I understand why they might find this sort of thing annoying, but the attitude mercs get for playing the way the game tacitly encourages them to play is wholly unnecessary. Faction units can't police their mercs, but they can police their members who take to being **** heads on the forums. When they choose not to, or engage in the **** slinging themselves, I can only assume that they're the kind of people that I have no real interest in trying to work with.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 21 January 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Yeah, yeah "it's a game", oh but out the other side of your mouth "it's war stuff like that happens", and "you can't tell me what to do", blah blah blah...

You can relax, until it starts happening to you, then we'll see.

It did happen to CSJ....when QQ came and did exactly what your rogue unit is doing. What's the difference? CSJ players cannot "control" QQ anymore than your players can control the rogue element. It is identical.

Remnant attacked CGB last night according to pbiggz. So what? CSJ doesn't control them. It's literally the exact same thing minus the account issue and there's NOTHING that can be done to either party. So how is it any more or any less problematic?

It's not.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alexander Steel, on 21 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Except in this case the "boss" ie Hanse Davion ((played by a computer in this game so maybe his ticker doesn't suck)) made it possible for the attack to happen my selecting a Steiner planet as being one that gives attackers loyalty and cbill rewards for victory on.

Except The computer is not playing Hanse Davion or else the Davion forces would not be able to attack the FedSuns closest Ally.