198 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Alistair Winter, on 21 January 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

100 replies so far.

YES votes: 23
NO votes: 6
I'm only counting people who included a clear Yes or No answer in their post. I'm not reading 100 posts to do a simple yes / no count.

24

YES!

But it does depend on what it changes to....because typically, just like movie sequels, the next method game devs use ends up being worse....but ....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 21 January 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[Scyther]

A further thing to consider is that asking "Do you want to change the heat mechanics?" in a game where heat is a major limiting factor is sort of like saying "do you want cake on that pie?"

That is, a lot of people (imo) will say 'Yes' without particularly thinking about it, or even if it is good for them. Something so fundamental needs a bit more than a Yes/No answer.

[Lily from animove]

MadBadger, on 21 January 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

A further thing to consider is that asking "Do you want to change the heat mechanics?" in a game where heat is a major limiting factor is sort of like saying "do you want cake on that pie?"

That is, a lot of people (imo) will say 'Yes' without particularly thinking about it, or even if it is good for them. Something so fundamental needs a bit more than a Yes/No answer.

while true, it will still give feedbakc if people think the current system is what they like to have or not.

and lets be honest most poeple spam all the alphas all days, and only one time wait for cool down to spam more alpha. actualy true heat management is not really existent.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lily from animove, on 21 January 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

while true, it will still give feedbakc if people think the current system is what they like to have or not.

and lets be honest most poeple spam all the alphas all days, and only one time wait for cool down to spam more alpha. actualy true heat management is not really existent.

Totally this.

Wizkids CMG MW: AOD, that game had Heat management. Typically tripping your heat effects meant the loss of your mech and the game.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 21 January 2015 - 03:32 PM.

[Hobo Dan]

Yes

Just clarifying so my posts count!

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

YES

Heat system need a serious revamp. There should be heat neutral builds and very dire consequences for running hot. Going to a true heat scale more like the TT instead of this borked patchwork would actually stop most high alpha anyways. You fire off that much you actually go BOOM pretty much anyways. Alpha's were bad business. But the heat sink scale and dissipation rates would need a serious revamp ingame.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 21 January 2015 - 04:03 PM.

[terrycloth]

So... actual true heat management == even more ghost heat? Or just such a low cap that it's impossible to fire more than one weapon at a time?

Since apparently 'managing your heat so that you don't fire until it won't make you overheat' doesn't count.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I'm in favor of a more streamlined and sensible system. I've seen lower thresholds suggested and it sounds like a good plan. Penalties for running hot also sound good. Balancing energy vs gauss and acs would be the critical point. Obviously it would require a ton of testing and reworking to balance.

[wanderer]

Quote

Why did Paul have to go and invent a bunch of asinine bullcrap instead of just going with something like what's in BattleTech TT already?

This. Overheating is one the biggest ways to balance things in TT, and Paul passed over it like it didn't exist.

The game would be a different place if overheating prior to 100% actually mattered.

[Ultimax]

No.

[Gyrok]

Yes.

Let me be specific though. Not the entire system per se, as I realize what that would literally entail, and have no faith in persuading PGI to undertake that particular task.

However, I think changing some of the Ghost Heat mechanics would go a long way toward solving the issues that some weapons currently have.

For example...the last time that medium lasers of any kind were OP, was back in the CB hbk 4p days, and even then, I would argue not so much OP weapons as much as a lot of the stars aligned for that specific combination at that time.

[Alex Morgaine]

nehebkau, on 21 January 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

+1 thread hijack....
Let people spend their money for stupid things -- it pays for us to play -- and pays for the developers to rework the heat system.

If they add stock mode, half the heat whiners may even go away. Or they can at least pgi can see where it's broken for base mechs and make something work something better something then the current system, something maybe?

[Koniks]

FupDup, on 21 January 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

So penalties have to be a lot "softer" than TT, because our heat system isn't as lenient due to not "frontloading" the dissipation like a turn-based environment does. If the threshold is low enough, you'd reach the top so quickly that we might not even need penalties in the first place (insta shutdown would be a penalty in and of itself...). We have to be careful not to trigger a Gauss meta here...

A solution to that is simply including a time component. Hitting X heat doesn't cause a penalty. But if your heat doesn't get below the threshold after Y seconds, then a damage, movement, or other penalty starts getting applied.

Similar to how going into the lava on Terra Therma doesn't cause leg damage immediately. It's triggered over time.

Edited by Mizeur, 21 January 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Gyrok]

You all also have to consider that in TT, you could literally burn 60 heat in 1 turn if you could dissipate 31+ points of heat. Yes, you would be hot, but your 60 damage from cerppcs may have killed your threat allowing you an extra turn to dissipate and fire fewer weapons next round.

So, while what we have now is not perfect, it does somewhat closely attempt to approximate the actual function in TT.

Now, lower heat scale with high dissipation does do one thing very well, it limits your alpha potential. You just have to build it to do so in such a manner that it does so within reason, otherwise a 15 minute match may not be enough time. Remember, in TT some fights were literally hours.

Granted the situations are vastly different, but a 20 min match might not at all be uncommon. CW matches being 30 minutes might typically see less than 4 mechs utilized even by the losing side.

So ask yourself if the pace of MWO is too fast for you. If it is, you may like the idea, if it is not, you may not like the realistic outcome of the approach.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gyrok, on 21 January 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

You all also have to consider that in TT, you could literally burn 60 heat in 1 turn if you could dissipate 31+ points of heat. Yes, you would be hot, but your 60 damage from cerppcs may have killed your threat allowing you an extra turn to dissipate and fire fewer weapons next round.

So, while what we have now is not perfect, it does somewhat closely attempt to approximate the actual function in TT.

Now, lower heat scale with high dissipation does do one thing very well, it limits your alpha potential. You just have to build it to do so in such a manner that it does so within reason, otherwise a 15 minute match may not be enough time. Remember, in TT some fights were literally hours.

Granted the situations are vastly different, but a 20 min match might not at all be uncommon. CW matches being 30 minutes might typically see less than 4 mechs utilized even by the losing side.

So ask yourself if the pace of MWO is too fast for you. If it is, you may like the idea, if it is not, you may not like the realistic outcome of the approach.

and quite frankly, to me, it sounds like that system is borked......there should be no system that really allows you to fire mass PPFLD mostly free of charge. And allows you to do it over and over again.

A 15 minute match, played with teamwork and gang banging would be plenty of time to kill off a number of the enemy mechs. Maybe it would get to the point where not all 12 mechs on the enemy side would die. I mean, in a real war an entire company isnt destroyed in every engagement. If that were the case, dear god, there would be literally noone left on the entire planet....everyone woulda been killed off already.

Besides, the victory conditions are cap, or kill all the enemies, and the side with the more kills wins the game. Also, if there was a chance to actually get in cap and NOT get melted, you might see more capping overall. The mechanics do not need to be such that everyone dies in 15 minutes. Besides, most games dont last but maybe 6-9minutes. Most people's single battle videos are 5-9 minutes long, usually somewhere between 6-7mins. So, is 15 minutes long enough? absolutely. even CW, all 48 mechs die in less then 25 minutes usually.

So, would a lower heat system that basically forces us to fire less fire less often be good? Absolutely. Make it more about who places their shots better and less about who can spam the most fire at the opponent the soonest.....

[Gyrok]

You have to understand the heat penalties. Anything over 15 heat to end a match had adverse effects. Over 20 was bad news, and over 25 might kill you.

Additionally, you must also consider that by using all 4 weapons like that, you would not have been n likely to fire again the next round, if you did, doubt you hit anything.

Most mechs like the warhawk prime could dissipate more like 40-50 heat in a round depending on load out as well. So your more prudent players would fire 3 dissipate 40 and end on 5. Hence in the books it talks about even the mighty warhawk would not fire all 4 erppcs in a round.

[Insidious Johnson]

TT solved heat mechanics nicely. I'm not a TT nut and have never rolled dice or even watched people play it. But I have looked at it. You start getting heat penalties early. Like @ 5 heat, 12% less agile mech due to myomer fibers being effected by heat. They are less responsive when hot. So a mech in overheat would be like driving a crippled drunken elephant that had been given Rohypnol. The more I look at it, the more I like all TT stats and their methodologies for solving problems we see manifested here. The only reason we went off the TT reservation was to give double armor since space poor mongoloid droolers were dying too easily/quickly since they hadn't put in all the counters from the heat mechanics that should make driving an overheated or even warm mech suck. That one turn on the TT off ramp lead directly to a cascade of problems which in turn lead to Paul having to "balance" or simply touching anything... giving us the new mythology of the King Merde touch. Seriously where we are now is get used to it or wait 10 more years for someone else to do it right. The latter is looking more and more inevitable. Fixing it would take us back to pre-beta but with just more mechs and maps. I'm not opposed to either solution.

[Serpieri]

Yes, the so called Band Aid fix has to go.

[Diablobo]

Yes....PGI has completely borked BT heat mechanics. They tripled the firing rate, but left the heat sinks at the single or double (1.4? Haha!) rate. Triple heat battletech sucks. I've said it since closed beta and I'm saying it today.

If you can't design a heat neutral mech, you are doing it wrong. It was that way in TT, and obviously compromises have to be made in a realtime simulator, but there is absolutely NO REASON a quad med laser mech with DHS should ever overheat.....NEVER.

[Clint Steel]

Internal damage due to overheating is pretty high as it is, on top of that its random where the heat goes. I've cockpited myself twice with all other internals being untouched.

Edited by Clint Steel, 21 January 2015 - 05:53 PM.