84 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

Ecrof, on 22 January 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

Harley Quinn is more of a clown than the joker, i never said the joker was a clown.
http://www.oxforddic...n_english/clown

I meant his antics aren't very clownish, and thus when she helps him with his plans shes isn't clowning around.

[FupDup]

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Fun is relative: therefore one cannot say with any authority what is or is not fun. You could say that you do not find specific mechanics or roles fun, but you cannot make an absolute statement as such.

I'm sure that there are some people that didn't mind when we had metas like LagRavens, 4 PPC Stalkers, or Poptarts, but there are also a whole lot of people that hated them.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

There has never been a time when no DRG or AWS was ever used (once they were included in the game of course). Suboptimal mechs are constantly seen and lambasted and often easily killed; however, they can still be dangerous due to being underestimated. Nor was the multi-PPC STK ever the only mech fielded, and it was not overpowered and arguably worse than some other potential options. Lag affects all mechs and was hardly limited to the RVN-3L. Fact is no mech in game is 100% superior.

In the past, there were multiple times when certain mechs were the superior go-to choice. The LagRaven 3L was orders of magnitude superior to any light mech because of its combination of ECM + Streaks + speed, the 4 PPC Stalker was king along with PPC + Gauss poptart builds, and so on.

In present day PGI has mostly stamped out metas, but not fully. In this case, the TBR/SCR combo (maybe throw in DWF) is still "mostly" better than the other choices, outside of a few niche cases like the TDR-9S.


Saying that a bad mech can be dangerous because of being underestimated is absolutely hilarious. Competent enemies are going to shoot to kill no matter what you're in, and differences in mech effectiveness will become a lot more clear. You can't base mech effectiveness on how it performs when nobody shoots at it, because that's quite frankly just stupid.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

While the SMN is cheaper to repair, that is not the only thing it does better than the TBR, as you yourself admit: by definition "most of the time better" means there are times it is not.

Can you name any actual specifics?

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yes, a modified LCT could take a stock UM - aside from you that is not in doubt. However, a mod'd UM will take that mod'd LCT. The UM can boat MGs & SPLs too! And do it with 10 (16 actually) more tons of weapons, armour & equipment.

In a meeting engagement or mobile defence, sure speed can matter. In a static defence? Not so much. Further mobility is not just sheer speed. Jets, accel/decel, twist & turn rates and torso twist all matter.

The Locust has more "effective" armor due to being faster, which makes it harder to hit and thus fewer shots will impact it.

Meanwhile, the 50.5 kph Urbanmech will be incapable of evading anything, making it basically into a bullet magnet. It won't be able to spread damage effectively between its hitboxes, and thus most of its armor will be bypassed entirely. This is similar to why even Atlases go down rather quickly to focus fire.

For firepower, if you plan to use a large-bore AC, you will be outgunned by a laser/SRM boating light. Energy and missiles give better damage per tonnage ratios than any ballistic. 16 tons of ACs does less damage than 16 tons of lasers/missiles.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Teamwork is not blindly following the blob. There are few maps that permit 12 FR mechs to simultaneously engage 12 EN mechs. But the fact is that should really never happen, and when it does it has nothing to do with teamwork. But even say your 11 teammates are overrun, that leaves the possibility that the spunky little defender will save the day! Base defences are significantly enhanced by the presence of a defender: sure a light lance swarm will probably kill the UM, just as an assault lance swarm would overwhelm a lone KGC; however, that lone defender can delay (or even prevent) the cap buying time for reinforcements to arrive.

If you're in assault mode, there are no reinforcements coming. In CW, you should be using a superior mech instead.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Teamwork is also working to include everyone on the team. Deliberately running off is pretty much the antithesis of teamwork. Covering off each others' weakness and fulfilling less desirable roles to free up others to play better to their strengths is teamwork.

If a team has to intentionally devote resources to guarding a single Urbanmech, that distracts them from important things like trying to find a new position to shoot from. It gives the red team precious time to set up their guns in a better position to blast you from.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

It is fair to say that you are deliberately obfuscating the issue: the UM is not slow for a Light, it is slow for ALL mechs. The speeds of other light mechs are irrelevant. It is clear that you think it needs to be fast, but actual mechs in game demonstrate otherwise.

There is no mech currently in the game anywhere near the same as a 30 ton mech that only goes 50.5 kph. The only analog are players who sometimes choose derp builds like AC/20 Ravens, but those are easy pickings unless they're fighting opponents who are bad.

[Ecrof]

Brody319, on 22 January 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

I meant his antics aren't very clownish, and thus when she helps him with his plans shes isn't clowning around.

All she does is clown around.

[RAM]

FupDup, on 22 January 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

I'm sure that there are some people that didn't mind when we had metas like LagRavens, 4 PPC Stalkers, or Poptarts, but there are also a whole lot of people that hated them.



In the past, there were multiple times when certain mechs were the superior go-to choice. The LagRaven 3L was orders of magnitude superior to any light mech because of its combination of ECM + Streaks + speed, the 4 PPC Stalker was king along with PPC + Gauss poptart builds, and so on.

In present day PGI has mostly stamped out metas, but not fully. In this case, the TBR/SCR combo (maybe throw in DWF) is still "mostly" better than the other choices, outside of a few niche cases like the TDR-9S.


Saying that a bad mech can be dangerous because of being underestimated is absolutely hilarious. Competent enemies are going to shoot to kill no matter what you're in, and differences in mech effectiveness will become a lot more clear. You can't base mech effectiveness on how it performs when nobody shoots at it, because that's quite frankly just stupid.



Can you name any actual specifics?



The Locust has more "effective" armor due to being faster, which makes it harder to hit and thus fewer shots will impact it.

Meanwhile, the 50.5 kph Urbanmech will be incapable of evading anything, making it basically into a bullet magnet. It won't be able to spread damage effectively between its hitboxes, and thus most of its armor will be bypassed entirely. This is similar to why even Atlases go down rather quickly to focus fire.

For firepower, if you plan to use a large-bore AC, you will be outgunned by a laser/SRM boating light. Energy and missiles give better damage per tonnage ratios than any ballistic. 16 tons of ACs does less damage than 16 tons of lasers/missiles.



If you're in assault mode, there are no reinforcements coming. In CW, you should be using a superior mech instead.



If a team has to intentionally devote resources to guarding a single Urbanmech, that distracts them from important things like trying to find a new position to shoot from. It gives the red team precious time to set up their guns in a better position to blast you from.



There is no mech currently in the game anywhere near the same as a 30 ton mech that only goes 50.5 kph. The only analog are players who sometimes choose derp builds like AC/20 Ravens, but those are easy pickings unless they're fighting opponents who are bad.

Too many redundant Urbanmech threads. Last reply here.

You cannot please everyone all the time. Best example are the morons bitching for Skirmish and then after being told how that will play out chasing the last EN mech, whine about how the EN team is delaying them. Every 'meta' thus far has been able to be countered. That piss poor players were too lazy (too stupid/too whatever) to do so was the issue.

False dichotomy: there is always a superior/optimal choice. All of your three examples however while good were not the only choice. Plus the lag affected every mech, not just the RVN.

Yes, but unfortunately your concession means it is not necessary.

By and large anything a LCT can boat, so to can an UM.

You wanting to interpret the comment as bad mechs can do well when not being targeted, is not surprising given how well you take after your name sake. Interesting that it is a porn site

Even a stock UM is perfectly capable of making its own way to its base without escort... this fascination of yours with escorting an Urbanmech across the map to the EN base really needs to be reigned in; however, could make for an interesting private match.

The reinforcements are the teammates returning to the base in Assault...

Super slow assaults, support lights and the twin AC20 CDA are prove otherwise.

Catch you in the main thread, cheers!


85 DAV


RAM
ELH

[FupDup]

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

You cannot please everyone all the time. Best example are the morons bitching for Skirmish and then after being told how that will play out chasing the last EN mech, whine about how the EN team is delaying them. Every 'meta' thus far has been able to be countered. That piss poor players were too lazy (too stupid/too whatever) to do so was the issue.

False dichotomy: there is always a superior/optimal choice. All of your three examples however while good were not the only choice. Plus the lag affected every mech, not just the RVN.

The RVN's combination of Streaks and ECM allowed it to dominate all other light mechs at that time. I know this, because I was one of those Ravens. Only other Ravens or ECM Commandos could compete against it in the light class, and larger mechs also had difficulties against it.

And no, not every past "meta" has had a counter to it. For example, the infamous Poptarting meta of the past was the de-facto most effective way to play the game, with even the highest levels of competition featuring full 12 mans of jumpsnipers trading their PPC/Gauss salvos.

In present day mechs do generally have counters, but in the past not really. Today's balance is a lot better than the past was.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

Yes, but unfortunately your concession means it is not necessary.

By and large anything a LCT can boat, so to can an UM.

You wanting to interpret the comment as bad mechs can do well when not being targeted, is not surprising given how well you take after your name sake.

If the Urbie tries to use a big gun he'll have less damage output than a mech boating small/medium guns, and if he tries to boat small/medium guns he'll have a lot of unused tonnage and still not have much more firepower than most other lights.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

Interesting that it is a porn site

I didn't even know that lol. I just randomly thought up the first sound that came into my head several years ago during the CnC: Red Alert 3 beta. My previous name in CnC3: Tiberium Wars was "C1ickC1ack" but that was even more stupid so I had to change it to something, and FupDup was what came to my mind first. The name stuck.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

Even a stock UM is perfectly capable of making its own way to its base without escort... this fascination of yours with escorting an Urbanmech across the map to the EN base really needs to be reigned in; however, could make for an interesting private match.

The reinforcements are the teammates returning to the base in Assault...

If the team doesn't have a few people to escort the Urbie, he gets left behind when they advance or retreat, and thus the enemy can focus their fire that much easier.

Keep in mind that the majority of the fight isn't going to take place at the home base unless you can get the whole team to agree to just camp the base all day. And even if you do, the base isn't always a very good position. Alpine is the best example of this, which allows the attackers to set up camp on Candy Mountain and rain down long-range fire from above at them.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

Super slow assaults, support lights and the twin AC20 CDA are prove otherwise.

Super slow assaults are viable because of having extreme firepower and good durability, particularly the Dire Wolf. Support lights can sometimes work because they have roughly equal or slightly better durability as an Urbie while having similar/better firepower and a lot more speed (even if just going 106.9 kph or so).

The AC/40 Cicada is a joke build that requires the stars to align and the enemy to goof up in order to profit. It's not a serious mech for serious play.

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

85 DAV