388 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Quote

match-maker at least *tries* to take skill into account.

The matchmaker just wants a winning team and a losing team for it's ELO processing. It's only attempt to take skill into account is to deliberately saddle one team with enough bad players to insure they fail.

That is, it's not only bad, it's being deliberately bad to artificially hand wins to one group while slapping down the other.

Not that I don't think large numbers of PUGs in a 12-man CW queue isn't anything but the usual recipe for disasters, but to fill in the cracks,I'm all for it. Just make it a maximum of 4 PUGs per drop, so there's at least some organized groups playing in any given CW game. And get that 4v4 mode working, too!

[Ax2Grind]

Most MM do not put bad players on a team to bring down a teams value...they usually are programmed to match players based off the values it has been given to create two mostly balanced teams. I am sure PGI's MM does the same thing. It will often fail due to the fact that some values will not necessarily express a players "skill", and due to the fact that this type of sorting can easily create lopsided teams, even if the value that one team averages out to is somewhat close to the value of the other team. It doesn't take that much to create imbalance and a roll with 12 mechs that can alpha as high as they do.

[wanderer]

This one does. ELO averaging, which in MWO's MM starts with trying to get that average with as close an ELO match as possible for the first team (the "winner" team), then it gets less picky as it goes along. This means the mismatches get increasingly horrendous on team #2 (the "loser" team), meaning as you get better, the more "carry" members of your team show up to be shot to pieces, deal under-100 damage in their assaults, and leave you wondering how it managed to get 0-3 within two minutes of game start.

[Ax2Grind]

I don't see why they would want to form a full team first then form the second team...maybe but that doesn't make any sense for a MM. It would seem much more expedient to match a player to each side and as it does so check that value against the combined ELO score of the teams. That's an expedient way to get ELO averaging while still matching players.

Basically for every good or bad player on each team there is an equivalent on the other team. That can still result in a constant string of bad/lop sided matches. And if the match isn't very close because the queue didn't contain a good player match it can get really wonky.

All of this seems to match up to my play experience.

Edited by Ax2Grind, 13 February 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Killaxis]

Duszanovsky, on 26 January 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

My first post here.

I was pretty enthusiastic about CW launching, it really appeared to be a long time missing element of MWO experience. I've invested a lot of time and c-bills for making an optimal clan drop deck, that suits my playstyle and that contributes to winning battles.

It was fun at the beginning, matches seemed to vary, there were some different scenarios of how the battle could go.

Thing is, CW has become nightmarish. It is now dominated by IS 12-man stompers, focused on overusing PPC TDR-9 builds. It's simply ridiculous. Every game the scenario for 12 mans against randoms makes it unplayable. On the "cold" map any random team attacking is just sniped from a distance and killed by organized push, up to the point of spawn killing. Really? Is this the way you want to almost every match to be played out in 12-man against random scenario? This was to be intended CW experience for casual CW players? You're on a best way to even more shrink the player base for CW.

How can someone not notice that TDR-9 is completely OP when used in 12 man scenario? It's just a long range damage spamming mode that almost cannot be countered by casuals. Especially on the map which allows you to see the spawn point from a veryyyyyyy far distance, and create a firing line that chokes enemy reinforcements to death.

Either PGI does something with it (splitting queues for teams and pugs/rebalances decks) or I'll just simply resign from ANY CW activity. It will slowly but surely make CW a mode for 12 man try-hards with meta-builds.

Maybe this is what it was supposed to be. But then....why enabling solo players drop into matches?

This is just utter crap. Sorry.

I know you probably put alot of thaought into that post.....but honestly right after you described the Thunder WUB and PPC WUB all I heard was "Whaaaaa! Whaaa! Whaaaa!"

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

I hate everything and especially you.

just had the worst cw experience ever. I'm not even going to report the guy who quit in the first 30 seconds before dying even once. because that was probably the highpoint of the match.

[Batch1972]

Would just like to add my 2 cents worth.

I play solo. I'm not interested in joining a corp. I don't play this game for hours at a time - I don't have the time. I started playing MWO with a group of friends more than a year ago. I'm the only one left. They love MWO will will not come back - it's over for them. I was excited by the concept of CW but as time has gone on I have become increasingly frustrated with it to the point that I no longer play. I've played both IS & clan factions.
So, taking that into account the issues I have are:
1. poorly balanced mechs - to my mind the hellbringer is a game changer. As the clans you can bring 3 ecm heavy mechs. There needs to be some restrictions on what can be in the deck - for a start no trial mechs

2. wait times - it may be great for prime time US but in Aus I can wait 25-30 mins for a match on a weekend, even longer if at all on weekdays

3. getting a match - I joined clan wolf last week. 7pm aus time went to queue for cw. Not a single person on (and it wasn't a ceasefire).

3. matchmaker or lack there of. When I join a queue and see that there are 6 lone wolves waiting I just know that if I play it's going to be painful

4. lack of variety - maps aren't the best. Game modes aren't the best. I'm actually rather concerned that all the resources seem to be going into cw at the expense of other aspects of the game.

5. VOIP - I'm not sure an ingame VOIP will be any use.

The experience for me is horrible and for a lot of people it'll be what tips them to move to another game. I think either they alter cw to make is more single person friendly or they exclude single players.

[Ax2Grind]

You don't have to join a "Corp" to drop with a group of like minded players. Choosing to drop single player in a Team game is your choice and you have to know your setting yourself up to fail. You can jump on any faction TS and join in with a large number of folks. If you haven't tried to do so, then you don't know what your missing out. When/if smaller engagements become possible it should be great for those looking for something different, but for now take the opportunity to get to know the folks in your faction and drop with them. It helps tremendously and it doesn't require anything more than using TS and being willing to ask to group up.

[Jon Gotham]

oldradagast, on 13 February 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Um, newsflash - if CW is boring "in our opinion," that's all that matters for us. What you think really doesn't matter when it comes to how the rest of us spend our game time; if you like it, fine - but a good chunk of the MWO population is bored stiff of it. Or, haven't you noticed? Yeesh...

And, yes, the matchmaker, for all its flaws, provides some degree of balance by definition. Also, there are no solo players in the Public team queue. Those 2 facts alone make those games better balanced and more worth playing than the free-for-all drek that is the current CW.

The trouble is though, you keep ramming that opinion down any throat with an open mouth attached to it-whilst constantly using the word "fact."
I primarily play solo mostly these days, and I find the solo queue to be toxic to any kind of fun. Virtually no one even attempts to work as a team-I have to go to CW for that. Shockingly, whilst soling in CW I meet many people that actually want to work together in a TEAM game.The elo matching actively punishes you the better you get. I have many games where I can watch 5+ of my team die in sub 2 mins from first contact with the enemy, leaving me to double or triple their damage but still get stomped. I'd say at least 95% of any solo games I play are utter stompfests-mm is doing a good job you say? It's gotten so bad for past 2 weeks I've been struggling to even log on because of the dross that is the solo queue. Guess what? even the group queue is turning to dross now. Horrendous stompfests nearly every match, and you have the nerve to make comments about CW?
I've had more close battles in Cw than my entire past YEAR in solo and group modes. I'd rather wait 20 mins to get ONE GOOD MATCH, than do 2-3 dross matches in that time. If that "good chunk" finds close knit, team work oriented games boring then MWO as a title is screwed. All we will ever have is team solomatch.

Ax2Grind, on 14 February 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

You don't have to join a "Corp" to drop with a group of like minded players. Choosing to drop single player in a Team game is your choice and you have to know your setting yourself up to fail. You can jump on any faction TS and join in with a large number of folks. If you haven't tried to do so, then you don't know what your missing out. When/if smaller engagements become possible it should be great for those looking for something different, but for now take the opportunity to get to know the folks in your faction and drop with them. It helps tremendously and it doesn't require anything more than using TS and being willing to ask to group up.

But as I said, that's the issue. They are not willing to do that, but will spend obscene amounts of time and energy browbeating PGI to change what PGI intended to what they want MWO to be. Seemingly WoT:Mech edition sans clan warfare.

[ThisOneDiesALot]

Ax2Grind, on 14 February 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

You don't have to join a "Corp" to drop with a group of like minded players. Choosing to drop single player in a Team game is your choice and you have to know your setting yourself up to fail. You can jump on any faction TS and join in with a large number of folks. If you haven't tried to do so, then you don't know what your missing out. When/if smaller engagements become possible it should be great for those looking for something different, but for now take the opportunity to get to know the folks in your faction and drop with them. It helps tremendously and it doesn't require anything more than using TS and being willing to ask to group up.

one week ago, liao space. someone mentions houseliaovoice.com TS. didn't know about that. joined there with our few unit members that where on and A LOT of pugs in our drop. took command, explained them what to do, where to go, what mechs to bring. what an assault mech is for (NO, ITS NOT FOR LURM BOATING!!!). what happend? win, win, win, win, close win, win... and so on. teamwork and listening to experienced guys is OP. even with pugs. the only difference to when we drop as a big group with a lot of my unit members: its harder to fight. the pilots weren't that skilled. its a group mode. because in CW you REALLY have to act as a team, not like in solo que matches. the maps are made for pushes, group ups, holding lines. NOT for running around or half the team stay in the back not entering while the front guys being slaughtered. and when you ask pugs why the hell they don't move in with you, you get answers like "not everyone is a brawler here". i've played 12man CW, i've played 6man+pugs CW with TS, i've played full pugs CW without TS: if you're not organized and don't take advice from experienced players, you won't have a nice time in CW.

[Ax2Grind]

Saxie, on 13 February 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

There would be no reason for those groups to sync drop. I have had the pleasure of playing with a few groups, one very competitive in CW, the only way you would reliably get the planet is if you launched as a 12 man group. No one is going to bother attempting to sync drop. If they do their name will be on one planet maybe two....

You have to keep in mind Saxie, Triordinant has never played CW (according to his own posts) so he has no idea how the mechanics work and no idea how the game play is. His numerous posts on the subject are literally based off of rumor, conjecture, and forum posts....and apparently only the forum posts critical of CW.

[Flaming oblivion]

CW was destine to fail the minute they angled it towards 17% of the playerbase.

Until that changes , CW's fate wont

I know I'm one of the many who dropped in cw 1-2 times a month until the stat change , Now not at all.

Was unplayable before but bearable because it didn't effect stats.


Now as a pug not only do I face a 12 man with no ELO I get penalized in most cases on my stats for a match I have a 99.9% chance of losing before it begins.

Yes if the stars line up perfectly and their are 45 super novas all as the MM happens to be finding your match you may have a chance of winning as a pug.

If by some miracle you overcome comms advantage and just happen to get the team with higher elo you just may beat a 12 man.....

But these things all lining up are rare.

Watch twitch NGNG , Streamers openly admit their farming pugs. Its just free win mode.

And needs changing

Edited by Flaming oblivion, 14 February 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Flaming oblivion, on 14 February 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

CW was destine to fail the minute they angled it towards 17% of the playerbase.

Until that changes , CW's fate wont

17% my ass

Even in solo drops you see 60-75% people in units, by definition, they aren't solo droppers stop repeating that tripe.

[Batch1972]

The problem seems to be the CW matchmaker - because it seek to match groups first and then use single players to fill the gaps, you often find yourself in a situation where you have one team with a group/multiple groups vs 12 lone wolves. I can tell you how frustrating it is to queue to 15mins and then get transferred and dumped into a new matchmaker as the only player to then wait for 10-15 more minutes.

I don't understand why that is acceptable on cw but not in the other game mode - remember they have split sp from group there.

As I mentioned earlier, either exclude single players or make it more single player friendly (perhaps not the right word but I hope you get my drift). CW atm serves neither base very well.

Edited by Batch1972, 14 February 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[Flaming oblivion]

Your talking about people in units , Rather then people consistently dropping as groups.

People IN units probably is higher then 17%

People actually consistently group dropping probably actually lower then 17%
But lets be kind and say 17% since that's the number PGI gave out, Feel free to present hard proof its higher though. PGI presented 17% number.

Seems foolish to release a flagship release the player base has begged for, for years. Then tell the majority of your player base well its not really for you but you can play it but if you do be ready to be cannon fodder

I hope they realise before its to late.

[Kjudoon]

I do believe that PGI has to present hard proof, not just one party on either side of the false 17% argument.

Till then, this is a religious argument based on what side of the 17% faith you believe in.

Edited by Kjudoon, 14 February 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[ThisOneDiesALot]

Batch1972, on 14 February 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

As I mentioned earlier, either exclude single players or make it more single player friendly (perhaps not the right word but I hope you get my drift). CW atm serves neither base very well.

the problem is that this game mode is in itself not for single player. you have a clear objective: attack the base. or, on the other side: defend the base. they made the maps that you CAN'T PLAY LIKE IN SINGLEPLAYER. the most obvious are the GATES. they are deadly chokepoints. they are NOT meant to take cover anywhere. you have to act as a group and push in. but pugs NEVER DO THAT. because they are not used to take care of the group and they are not used to be part of one. they completly don't understand how to play those maps. pgi would have to change the base layout to a much more skirmish playstyle. but chockepoints are exactly the opposite of singe player friendly. and it makes sense that a base is being defended by chokepoints.

this situation is compareable to the mordor map. both team's objective is to take the ring. whoever takes the ring, wins. that means: push in fast, don't group up, hold inside unit reinforcements arrive. but for that you need to COUNT on your teammates. but in pug matches you see a lot of them standing in the chokepoint, blocking everyone else. assaults not pushing on the enemy and taking the dmg. and then the team that actually managed to push into the ring wins the game. of course there are exceptions, but they aren't that often.

the game mode is not broken at all. it favours group play. but pugs don't want to act as a group. this is what you always see in CW 12 pug groups. they absolutely CANNOT play it like a single player pug match. they need to realize this.

Edited by ThisOneDiesALot, 14 February 2015 - 02:04 PM.

[Ax2Grind]

Flaming oblivion, on 14 February 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

Your talking about people in units , Rather then people consistently dropping as groups.

People IN units probably is higher then 17%

People actually consistently group dropping probably actually lower then 17%
But lets be kind and say 17% since that's the number PGI gave out, Feel free to present hard proof its higher though. PGI presented 17% number.

Seems foolish to release a flagship release the player base has begged for, for years. Then tell the majority of your player base well its not really for you but you can play it but if you do be ready to be cannon fodder

I hope they realise before its to late.

17% is not the number PGI gave out for players in groups for CW. It is an old number regarding a percentage of overall playstyle between pugging and group play at a time when dropping in groups was extremely limted. It was also never made clear how much of each percentage of the population did both, but instead mearly highlited the overall percentage of the type of drops being done in MWO at the time.

[Flaming oblivion]

^ CW is doomed the game has to change for pugs (since we are the majority)

Pgi learn this lesson once in solo.

PuGs were leaving faster then they could replace us.

They found out it just doesn't work in a PvP game pitting pugs against organised groups .

It breaks balance.

One team has a immediate huge advantage.

Either fix it or stop putting so much effort into a game mode most wont use,

[Chocowolf Sradac]

Onmyoudo, on 26 January 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

This is nonsense - you cannot lay this at the feet of the IS, or a single variant of a chassis.



THIS is the problem. I can tell you now it is exactly the same when the situations are reversed and clan 12 mans are stomping the hell out of every IS PUG defense on the border. The problem is voice chat and team work versus no voice chat and no team work.

Some people will argue that the PUGs should just not play CW because it's for teams only. That's a foolish argument that leads to CW and MWO having no population, and no games for anyone else.

Others will argue that the mode should be made to cater to solo players which is completely unfeasible because teams will always work better together than 12 randoms, and teams have every right to play as teams in a team-based mode with a core fanbase of teams.

Would splitting the queues provide better matches? Potentially. It might also potentially kill the queue and leave any team not able to field a full 12 in a very difficult position. Should teams be matched against teams and PUGs against PUGs? Technically that might be very difficult and majorly increase queue times.

Will in-game VOIP and faction matching make a difference? We'll see.

If you try CW from the clan side you can see for yourself how not fun running into the thunderbolts are. I am glad they got a much needed nerf

is it the sole reason for CW being a poor expirience? hardly there are still a number of issues with it especially with the ghost dropping which I've seen phase after phase being the difference of whether a planet is captured or not. Despite it apparently not being an issue in the town hall meeting as a player playing the beta I would say it's highly discouraging despite winning every match your in to see all your work negated and taken away by the stupid ghost drop mechanic just because the other side can field more players Keeping CW nothing more then a numbers game only really benefiting the bigger units that have the active players and 12 mans