146 replies to this topic

[Lucy Cameron]

It's never JUST been about circle strafing to be honest. In most any battle, the larger mechs with beam or projectile weapons (and good amounts of armor) would head in and do the circle dance somewhere in the middle, but the missile boats stay as far out as possible and plink all targets of opportunity. The Catapults and Mad Cats of the world would move up to shoot, then throw it in reverse to get out of range of return fire. Making this more fun were the light and medium mechs that would often skirt the main battle and try to take down one of the LRM boats, unless someone was missing copious amounts of armor, in which case it was dash in for the quick kill and then exit stage left at full speed. I miss those days.

[Terror Teddy]

Im actually more interested in huge cityfights. Light mechs with targeting and scout gear sittin gon the rooftops and gives targeting info towards the bumbling assaults 20 stories below you.

The earlier mech games have been rather 2-dimensional (flat, 1 level plane of combat), we should be able to change that today.

[Grand Duke Joshua]

PewPew, on 28 June 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

What do you guys think of the idea in the link above? To increase close range damage of certain weapons in order to make close-combat much more dangerous. If you could drop a mech much faster, there wouldn't be drawn out circle strafe matches.

You lost me at "drop a mech much faster", The COD is delicate dance, a ballet of destruction. I enjoy the long drawn out engagements. Aside from the whole cannon it is the primary reason I play the Mechwarrior games.

Modern FPS have nearly eliminated the COD by making the kills faster. A couple of bursts from nearly every weapon in MW3 or BF3 and the kill is achieved.

I like to think of Mech fights like Naval battles, lots of positioning, some initial volleys, the mid range slugout, then the nasty close range if one cannot escape alive.

If anything Id love to make the weapons weaker and add more armor.

Make the COD last minutes, have to balance heat and piloting at the same time when it matters most.

-Josh out

[Ardan Blade]

Personally, I think the game would be improved by making weapons less accurate. That way, it forces players to get in close and slow down to truly be sure of their shots. It would also prevent people from sniping one location to death. There's nothing more irritating than being blown out of your mech the moment someone can see you because they've got a weapons compliment that will take out your center torso in a quick volley.

[Nakuru]

Ardan Blade, on 11 September 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Personally, I think the game would be improved by making weapons less accurate. That way, it forces players to get in close and slow down to truly be sure of their shots. It would also prevent people from sniping one location to death. There's nothing more irritating than being blown out of your mech the moment someone can see you because they've got a weapons compliment that will take out your center torso in a quick volley.

Might as well just be playing World of Tanks, then. I want to hit where I aim, not shoot and pray. Why would the weapons be less accurate, anyway? It's 1000+ years into the future with advanced technologies aiding them in combat. Lasers essentially fire in a perfect line, and if it's not....I'd be concerned about the stability of the universe. Gauss Rifles are mass drivers, which by their very nature, have to be accurate. If not....again, there's a major and potentially catastrophic problem. LRMs are self-propelled long range guided missiles, and SRMs are unguided short range self-propelled missiles. They already don't have a 100% guarantee to hit where you want them to. And to FORCE players to get in close because a long range weapon has terrible accuracy at a range defeats the purpose of that weapon having the longer range. Mechanisms like the neurohelmet and gyro are used to counter potential instability problems with the battlemechs, making the giant war machines essentially into extensions of their bodies. They hit where they shoot, not shoot and maybe hit in the general location that the aiming reticule was covering at the time. My ability to hit where I want should be determined by my aim, my skill in using the weapons, and my targets ability to avoid my shots. Do I get irritated when I get cored within seconds or head-shotted by a Gaussapult? Yes. Does that mean Gauss Rifles shouldn't hit where he aims? No. Just like the lasers on a Jenner should hit the torso of the Atlas that it aims at, not swing down to hit the leg 15 feet lower than where he aimed.

[Squishh]

Circle strafing? I would prefer the term "dogfighting" Light mechs are not running in circles just to run in circles. We are trying to stay in your blind spots by using higher speeds.

Light mechs cant go toe to toe with heavys. So our best weapon is to keep the back of your mech in our cross hairs.

Besides with teamwork circle strafing is countered with ease. Have you ever collided with another scout mech, and then got destroyed by their teammates while you were getting back up. Do you think that was an accident?

One of my main roles as a scout mech is to lure other scout mech near my hard hitting teammates, knock them down, boom round over for them. Dirty but works great against those players that tunnel vision.

I have also encountered pilots in an Atlas thay play very smart. They position their mech so they cant be circled. They cover their blind spot by standing next to hills or buildings so all they have to do is torso twist.

If you are in a slow moving mech, and in a wide open area, then you just put the advantage into the light mechs corner.

If I see a lone Atlas in an wide open area of the map, I think to my self free damage, or even better a free kill.

Edited by Squishh, 11 September 2012 - 09:12 PM.

[JebusGeist]

Nakuru, on 11 September 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Might as well just be playing World of Tanks, then. I want to hit where I aim, not shoot and pray. Why would the weapons be less accurate, anyway? It's 1000+ years into the future with advanced technologies aiding them in combat. Lasers essentially fire in a perfect line, and if it's not....I'd be concerned about the stability of the universe. Gauss Rifles are mass drivers, which by their very nature, have to be accurate. If not....again, there's a major and potentially catastrophic problem. LRMs are self-propelled long range guided missiles, and SRMs are unguided short range self-propelled missiles. They already don't have a 100% guarantee to hit where you want them to. And to FORCE players to get in close because a long range weapon has terrible accuracy at a range defeats the purpose of that weapon having the longer range. Mechanisms like the neurohelmet and gyro are used to counter potential instability problems with the battlemechs, making the giant war machines essentially into extensions of their bodies. They hit where they shoot, not shoot and maybe hit in the general location that the aiming reticule was covering at the time. My ability to hit where I want should be determined by my aim, my skill in using the weapons, and my targets ability to avoid my shots. Do I get irritated when I get cored within seconds or head-shotted by a Gaussapult? Yes. Does that mean Gauss Rifles shouldn't hit where he aims? No. Just like the lasers on a Jenner should hit the torso of the Atlas that it aims at, not swing down to hit the leg 15 feet lower than where he aimed.

Well actually, this is thousands of years into the future in the battletech universe. A universe where what you'd think 'should' be the case isn't the case purely because doing it the way they've done it made it easier to design the tabletop game its all based on. There is accuracy modifiers in tabletop BT, which is why people will constantly bring it up forever and a day. Don't try and respond by talking about the lore tho, just tell them this:
This is and always was going to be an online skill based first person shooter with a teamwork based strategy element, not a turn based strategy or real time strategy game, get used to it.

[MasterofBlasters]

Taking a light mech and running circles around an assault is always fun.

[Odanan]

Irreverence, on 28 June 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

I see no issue with circle strafing. If you don't like it, don't do it.

I think the problem is: he doesn't like to be caught in a circle of death (my guess is he is an Atlas pilot).

Well, there are only two solutions:

1- pilot a faster mech;
2- don't go around alone. When seeing you with backup, the light mech has nothing to do but run away.

[Lykaon]

This idea would likely lead to the demise of several mech designs and loadouts.

And here is why...

If you give players a means of quickly dispatching the enemy they will optimize designs to take advantage of this feature.Once these optimized designs are entrenched few players will use more traditional mechs in favor of the pointblank fighter.

The end result will likely end up oposite the desired intent.We will see the majority of mech designs optimized to circle strafe not designs to perform outside of that role.

If knife fight range is the most effecent means of delivering damage on target players will design mechs to take advantage of this not avoid it


The circle of death manuver isn't the be all end all of mech dueling.To be honest this manuver looses effectivness in team play.One would also think that even without increasing short range damage a support mech is up a creek when faced with a brawler.Let's think about a Catapult C1 vs a Hunchback 4G.The Catapult has 16 of it's 20 ton weapon payload dedicated to weapons and ammo that it can not use at point blank range The hunchback has all of it's weapon payload available to use at point blank range.

My opinion is there isn't a problem that needs fixing.

[Duncan Fisher]

PewPew, on 28 June 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Cross-posting from http://mwomercs.com/...ange-on-damage/. Probably not an original idea, but I feel like this needs more attention.

Something I noticed in the gameplay videos is that there is still a lot of circle strafing or a linear clashing of forces. The two teams just run towards each other and then duke it out. It seems the gameplay still doesn't lend itself to more complex strategies.

Of course, it is impossible to be certain based on what we know, but discussion can only benefit us here. In addition, this has been the case for all past Mechwarrior games including the most recent MW:LL mod.

What do you guys think of the idea in the link above? To increase close range damage of certain weapons in order to make close-combat much more dangerous. If you could drop a mech much faster, there wouldn't be drawn out circle strafe matches. This would encourage smarter, stealthy maneuvering by close range mechs and make fire support mechs have to be on their toes. This would also lead to scouts being far more important to the team than just collecting locational/damage data.

Like others have said, I really don't see the problem with circle strafing, or what you might have against it, especially the idea that they are "drawn out." If you don't like circle of death, the solution is to work with your team. As for one on one mech combat, how else would you fight it out? The nature of the battle can also be quite terrain dependent, and in an open area, your choices are basically stand still, straight line it, or circle.

If you're going up against a mech with roughly equal firepower, circle strafing is the best way to fight it out; the pilot with superior gunnery skills who can stay on target will emerge victorious.


The proposition of eliminating circle strafe battles in Mechwarrior would be akin to suggesting that games like Halo or Call of Duty get rid of head to head gun battles. Ultimately, superior tactics can win you the day, but in your situationally balanced engagement, the pilot with better aim and reflexes will get the kill.

[Scopilot]

Although I hate getting killed by some runt in a Jenner, It sure is fun when I do it myself! I think having these pesky annoyances forces an 'increase' in complexity as it requires more advanced communications, and support for the slower weapon platforms. ie; infantry to support your tanks.

[buttmonkey]

the maps are simply too small for any kind of real tactical play. take river city for example that map is tiny, theres only 2 ways you can run really. as for the circle strafing, if they introduce side stepping then that might help, as now all you can do is run forward, the last thing you should do is run away and expose your back.

Edited by buttmonkey, 13 September 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[Zinc001]

Rules of engagement for basic mech combat.

All mechs are great for killing the weight class lower than them because they have similar speed with greater armor/firepower but have problems against larger mech(s) of similar speed but obviously more armor/firepower.

Lights are great at annoying heavy/assaults but do no real dmg. In a duel between an atlas and a commando, the commando has a resonable chance of winning due to maneuverability. It may take the commando 4 min to whittle away an atlas's armor but this was a mistake in teamwork for the Atlas. It is NOT the role of an Atlas to kill light mech(s). Although light mech are annoying, assault mech(s) with disciplined pilots, if found in a bad situation, can and do kill light mech(s). It just isn't and shouldn't be easy.

assault =< light =< medium =< heavy =< assault (repeat)

It should not be fixed that Assualt mech(s) always get an easy kill on lights because that would imply a maneuverability boost which makes them greater than all. Let's not fix something that is balanced and makes sense.

As a side-note, encouraging mech ramming is not an acceptable method of handling light mech(s). It is an exploitable way of killing enemy mech(s) without engaging in real combat. As a firm believer in mechwarrior/battletech lore, and in Clan honor, I am disheartened to see it used as the solution to dealing with light mech(s).

I like assault mech and find light mech just as annoying as anyone else, but they can be killed and it is my own fault if I get caught surrounded by light mechs in an Atlas or other. Think tactics. Put your back to a wall; disable their ability to circle. Make better teamwork choices.

Edited by Zinc001, 22 September 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

I love to watch a teammate tackle a Jenner. The I blow leg off of it and we leave it there for a minute, ineffective, slow, confused and amusing.

2 quotes come to mind. "No one ever won a war by dying for his country. You win a war by making the other poor dumb bastage die for HIS country" (Patton, not quite exact) and "My definition of fair is: 'All our guys come home safe. $*#& the others.'" (unknown)

Circle strafing works, skilled pilots can deal with a mech running around them.. If the circle strafer is skilled then it is more difficult. Most "circles" are not realy that clean. Lots of dashing straight ahead, chasing the other and then some more turning, revers direction, twist torso, circle some more, run straight again, etc... It is all about position, terrain and getting damage on target.

A crowded area (like a city) offers many obstructions to circle straffing, there it is more about dodging between buildings for position and keeping an eye on the target, but it is all part of the same skill set, ie. hit the enemy while making it harder for him to hit you.

[Sky Legacy]

This would in no way eliminate circle straffing and why is circle straffing something to be eliminated as if its a bug anyway? Circle strafing has always been the core of mechwarrior combat and is where true skill is displayed.

[warzer01]

.... You know there is a VERY easy way to deal with circle strafing.

"Warzero defensive, jenner bravo, need assist."
"Meatball, tally bravo, offensive."

...and if you don't understand that, you deserve to lose.

[verybad]

Stray Ion, on 28 June 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

NO do not take out the "CIRCLE OF DEATH". It takes skill to perform and make every hit land.

I wouldnt' say it takes skill to perform, it's simply the obvious thign to do when you want to hit the other mech's back, and they don't want you to do that.

COD. The larger, slower mech merely needs to get their back against something and the COD is over.However what the hell would people do if COD weren't around? Just stand there waiting for hits?

[Eli Dacreach]

Don't like circle strafing? You should get a Nova (Black Hawk). 50 tons, packs 12 clan ER-medium lasers (basically large lasers), and only has a 10 degree torso twist.....

[Gun Bear]

When two 'mechs of medium, heavy, or assault size meet in an open area circle strafing becomes inevitable. In most light 'mechs it becomes more like a dogfight where pilots jockey for position and try to get a deadly kill shot to the back; the Commando is an exception because they have the firepower to kill from the front, they also seem to lack the maneuverability of the 'chicken legged' 'mechs so a lot of Commando jockeys try to get in from the sides and front.

There are a lot of tactics I see used and I only drop a few times a night; its not just circle strafing out there and if that's all you see than maybe mix it up with other players.