164 replies to this topic

[Alexander Steel]

I Totally agree with RG on this it seems, however... I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of any unit that wanted to and had cash in their reserves that they could put a tag on a planet to increase the rewards of people who dropped on that planet and got victories.

The only fear I have with this is that it could easily lead to factions that are losing stay losing as the winning factions would have more and more funds to lure people to hammering the defeated.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 29 January 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[RG Notch]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

How to have fun no. Where to go to find it... A lot of games have areas to faff about and then the actual story areas. Thats all we need to have.

Comm from General Socialpants sends orders to you that your contract clause is being activated and you are being sent to Twycross to engage an unknown force. You will receive reinforcements from The Marik Militia in 3 weeks. God Speed.

I'm not seeing the issue, that's all fine as long as it's not player driven. I said I'm fine with the game giving directions, I'm against OTHER PLAYERS giving them.

Alexander Steel, on 29 January 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

I Totally agree with RG on this it seems, however... I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of any unit that wanted to and had cash in their reserves that they could put a tag on a planet to increase the rewards of people who dropped on that planet and got victories.

The only fear I have with this is that it could easily lead to factions that are losing stay losing as the winning factions would have more and more funds to lure people to hammering the defeated.

That's fine too as incentives are one thing, it's sticks that shouldn't be in player's hands.

[Joseph Mallan]

RG Notch, on 29 January 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'm not seeing the issue, that's all fine as long as it's not player driven. I said I'm fine with the game giving directions, I'm against OTHER PLAYERS giving them.

Are you in a group? Are you the leader of that Unit?

[Alexander Steel]

One thing that causes me to chuckle is that people are claiming that factions need to be able to tell mercs what they do and vastly restrict their actions. What they are missing is that House Units are even more under the thumb of being told what to do and having to follow orders.

If you are the commander of a house or clan unit you don't get to pick what planet you fight on. If your house leader tells you to go to X front and park yourself there, that's where you go. They can change that deployment order at a second's notice and as a house/clan unit you have no say. Clans can be even worse. Can't wait to fight on X planet? Sure you get into orbit... oops your Kahn bid you away, no fighting for you.

At least mercs would have terms that held the house the worked for in check.

The house units seem to be under the delusion that they are the Leaders of their House/Clan. They wouldn't be. They would be the Leader of Clusters, Companies, Galaxies, RCT, and the like. You aren't the Kahn of Clan Wolf or the First Prince of the Federated Suns.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 29 January 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alexander Steel, on 29 January 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

One thing that causes me to chuckle is that people are claiming that factions need to be able to tell mercs what they do and vastly restrict their actions. What they are missing is that House Units are even more under the thumb of being told what to do and having to follow orders.

If you are the commander of a house or clan unit you don't get to pick what planet you fight on. If your house leader tells you to go to X front and park yourself there, that's where you go. They can change that deployment order at a second's notice and as a house/clan unit you have no say. Clans can be even worse. Can't wait to fight on X planet? Sure you get into orbit... oops your Kahn bid you away, no fighting for you.

At least mercs would have terms that held the house the worked for in check.

And those Units still need to be created and manned. I am waiting patiently to be a 10th Lyran Guard.

I had a contract with the Marines. I was going to be Comms or Admin. I ended up an 0311 Infantry Marine Cause of one bad test score.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 January 2015 - 11:01 AM.

[RG Notch]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Are you in a group? Are you the leader of that Unit?

No to both. If my guild still played I'd probably not be CO but I would imagine I'd make a good XO. If I were in a group than I would have submitted to that command structure and abide by it, try to change it, or leave said unit if I they made agreements I didn't like. That's why I say people who choose to be party to agreements should be bound by them, but no one who isn't part of the agreement should have these agreements enforced on the ex parte. Players who want to play at politics and diplomacy should abide and be bound by them, no one who isn't part of these agreements should be bound. I feel like a broken record repeating this mantra but there it is.

[Tasker]

Better idea, why not reward player who fight for faction with loyalty, honor, integrity, instead of space gypsy who wander around each faction to scoop up mech bay reward and more money?

Change system so that units no longer allowed to break contract early. Tie bonuses to unit's service. If player decide they really want to switch sides, leave or disband unit and lose bonuses accrued by unit. Good solution.

Death to Mercenaries.

[Joseph Mallan]

RG Notch, on 29 January 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

No to both. If my guild still played I'd probably not be CO but I would imagine I'd make a good XO. If I were in a group than I would have submitted to that command structure and abide by it, try to change it, or leave said unit if I they made agreements I didn't like. That's why I say people who choose to be party to agreements should be bound by them, but no one who isn't part of the agreement should have these agreements enforced on the ex parte. Players who want to play at politics and diplomacy should abide and be bound by them, no one who isn't part of these agreements should be bound. I feel like a broken record repeating this mantra but there it is.

SO you wanna be a pirate! Got it. Cause if you are in a House You either follow the house or leave as you said. But there should be a consequence for 0 loyalty. A give and take. Just like with our Mechs. Assaults have lots of armor and firepower but as a consequence slow plodding speed.

Tasker, on 29 January 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Better idea, why not reward player who fight for faction with loyalty, honor, integrity, instead of space gypsy who wander around each faction to scoop up mech bay reward and more money?

Change system so that units no longer allowed Unlikely to break contract early. Tie bonuses to unit's service. If player decide they really want to switch sides, leave or disband unit and lose bonuses accrued by unit. Good solution.

Death to Mercenaries.

Thats more my feeling now.

[Alexander Steel]

I was thinking that LP should be like a currency and the higher end stuff should be pretty cool. Things like the ability to get "Knighted" or the like by your realm, own a planet with some sort of bonuses and the like. However the down side would be if you switched factions you would lose most of that stuff and have to rebuy them if you ever came back and of course spent LPs would never be refunded.

However.. and this is the big however. Having a fluid force is a needed feature of CW. If factions start to get pounded hard, the only real way the Dev's have to help save them is by making it more and more appealing for non-perm units to flow to that side to help out.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alexander Steel, on 29 January 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

I was thinking that LP should be like a currency and the higher end stuff should be pretty cool. Things like the ability to get "Knighted" or the like by your realm, own a planet with some sort of bonuses and the like. However the down side would be if you switched factions you would lose most of that stuff and have to rebuy them if you ever came back and of course spent LPs would never be refunded.

However.. and this is the big however. Having a fluid force is a needed feature of CW. If factions start to get pounded hard, the only real way the Dev's have to help save them is by making it more and more appealing for non-perm units to flow to that side to help out.

And now which currency does the play want more LP or C-Bills?

[RG Notch]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

SO you wanna be a pirate! Got it. Cause if you are in a House You either follow the house or leave as you said. But there should be a consequence for 0 loyalty. A give and take. Just like with our Mechs. Assaults have lots of armor and firepower but as a consequence slow plodding speed.

Thats more my feeling now.

No I am fine submitting to the game's rules for who I can attack or not. I am not here to obey other players, unless as some one suggested these players offered me an incentive. The game already has rules for Loyalty points. If the game rules change that's one thing, if players can make these choices for me, that isn't.
Let's be clear, are you saying that other players should be running these factions and have options to order other players around and choose attack lanes? Or are you simply saying that the game driven rules should be more immersive? If it's the former, that's untenable for me, if the latter, thats' fine as long as they aren't too restrictive.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ok. its good to know where someone is coming from. Definitely more immersive. Lets face it I'm an Old grunt. I was in a military hierarchy. At the very bottom of said hierarchy. My perspective on how things "should" work is likely going to be different from MANY others.

[HARDKOR]

Screw mercs and loyalists, lets get some pirate rules in here.

Taking orders from anyone who doesn't have me at the end of a gun barrel is not acceptable. Contracts are mere kindling, agreements, just tools to manipulate a mark, and leadership, a burden to be foisted upon the oldest geezer on the ship(currently, Lord Curmudgeon gets take the blame.)

We fight because we can, not because we are here to lick the boots of some noble tool. All your factions are worthy of derision and each is the enemy of freedom, in it's own special way.

Until we are given control of our home world(The Rack), or even a space station or jump ship to operate from, we will wear the colors foisted upon us by this faction system and go out of our way to pillage it for pleasure and profit.

We've been biding our time, waiting for CW to become worthy, and if we are not given a chance to be what we are, then we will most surely run amok.

[Gyrok]

Dracol, on 29 January 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

So, what parts of lore are you willing to ignore and which parts are you not willing to ignore?

Twycross... what are your thoughts on that? Should the Clans have lost the MWO fight on that world just recently and a ceasefire between IS and Clan initiated? Because continuing to fight after Tycross goes counter to any lore that ever existed for CJF.

Tukkayid is the planet you are thinking of...Twycross was the site of the refusal war last stand of CWiE by Natasha Kerensky 8 years in the future.

As for the route of the invasion, I do think that we should be kind of "writing our own invasion". I think playing predetermined outcomes would not be fun for many because no one would play IS until Tukkayid.

However, I do think that a substantial diplomacy system in the game and/or contract system would do many things for the player base. For starters, it would add depth, give mercenaries a purpose, allow for diplomacy in a world where most games have no diplomacy, and provide clear cut advantages for mercenaries, as well as advantages for loyalist units.

How is that such a bad thing? If you want to play clans so badly...become a loyalist unit. Simple problem, simple solution.

Depth, immersion, varied gameplay, and sensible rules are all hallmarks of a good game.

I have never seen a game that had no depth or immersion, stagnant gameplay, and no rules turn out well...ever.

[Gyrok]

RG Notch, on 29 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

No I am fine submitting to the game's rules for who I can attack or not. I am not here to obey other players, unless as some one suggested these players offered me an incentive. The game already has rules for Loyalty points. If the game rules change that's one thing, if players can make these choices for me, that isn't.
Let's be clear, are you saying that other players should be running these factions and have options to order other players around and choose attack lanes? Or are you simply saying that the game driven rules should be more immersive? If it's the former, that's untenable for me, if the latter, thats' fine as long as they aren't too restrictive.

So, if the game's rules say you can take a contract from PGI for a pittance against one faction...or...you can take a contract from a unit with a victory % condition that could potentially pay out 3x as much money...you would object to that because a player put out the contract asking for help?

Color me confused. You can take a generic contract, or you can take a unit contract.

Issue lies where?

Try reading what I am saying instead of spouting your uninformed nonsense about players ruining fun.

[Vlad Ward]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

LOL Your logic is backwards. No House would pay a Merc Command 500K per soldier PER MISSION unless that command is the Black Widow Company.

A Merc, a Elite Merc, Non Officer made 1200-2000 Cbills a Month! All the rest went to the Company Coffer to pay for R&R and basic maintenance.

And people's insistence on following lore c-bill values is exactly why no Merc unit in the world is going to give a damn about whatever "incentives" House units want to offer them.

[Dracol]

Gyrok, on 29 January 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

As for the route of the invasion, I do think that we should be kind of "writing our own invasion". I think playing predetermined outcomes would not be fun for many because no one would play IS until Tukkayid.

"writing our own invasion".... So long as we don't write in Clans hiring mercs?

Ignoring the major Plot point in the Lore is ok, since it allows you to continue to fight the battles you want, but ignoring the lore (Clan v Clan CW) that allows more variety of game modes for the general populace is not ok. That sum up your position?

Edited by Dracol, 29 January 2015 - 02:22 PM.

[CutterWolf]

Dracol, on 29 January 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

"writing our own invasion".... So long as we don't write in Clans hiring mercs?

Ignoring the major Plot point in the Lore is ok, since it allows you to continue to fight the battles you want, but ignoring the lore (Clan v Clan CW) that allows more variety of game modes for the general populace is not ok. That sum up your position?

If you going to try to troll take it somewhere else. If you have a point lets see it? What you keep missing here is that "You" are a Merc not a Clan so your "Merc" slapping on CGB avatar and then hitting another Clan does not constitute "Clan vs Clan" combat. That would be Merc vs Clan combat. We have no issue with Merc vs Clan combat what we do have issue with is Merc's being forced to put on Clan or House Tags that are not theirs. You should always be in whatever house/company/clan faction your loyal too. Other wise why even have a star map at all? Does it matter right now for any Merc unit how the star map is setup? No it does not because for you their are no boarders at all. However for the rest of us their are and they dictate who we can and can not attack. You however are not bound by this game rule like us, do you think that's fare to us?

You see you can't have your cake and eat it too. There is a reason why rules need to be put into place to "balance things out". Right now it is far from that point. This is not CW this is why players have stopped playing in it because it means nothing, there is no goal, there is no reason to play it. How is CW any different than what we had prior to it? What? you can drop with 4 different mechs on the same map. Ok no problem lets just get PGI to put all the maps in the rotation and allow you to drop 4 time on each one, done. Now lets tell everyone here to disband from all IS House and Clans and we will go ahead and rename MWO to Merc Warrior online and we can all just play Merc's and not have to deal with any of this........

[Gyrok]

Dracol, on 29 January 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

"writing our own invasion".... So long as we don't write in Clans hiring mercs?

Ignoring the major Plot point in the Lore is ok, since it allows you to continue to fight the battles you want, but ignoring the lore (Clan v Clan CW) that allows more variety of game modes for the general populace is not ok. That sum up your position?

Actually...we are following Lore regarding Clans versus Clans. As there was no Clans versus Clans until the refusal war 8 years from now in 3058. We would be ignoring the invasion paths minutia, and Clans now have the same goal they did then...so it would really only be finite details being ignored...say Wolf takes a certain world instead of CGB or CGB takes a world that CSJ originally took, etc. That is fine, and who knows...perhaps something like Tukkayid plays out...?

I guess you are missing my point...

We are basically only glossing over minor lore specifics and minutia. Your view point basically says throw the whole thing in a bin and set it on fire.

Which I completely, whole heartedly disagree with, and depending upon the announcement of what system will come into play for mercs, it may dramatically impact how much more of my time and money I invest in this game. Do not get me wrong, I would still drop here and there...but CW becomes a joke if there are zero rules for mercs.

What CW without those rules would be is bascially this: "Trololololololololololololololololololololololololol MERCS! Trololololololololololololololololololol"

Edited by Gyrok, 29 January 2015 - 03:16 PM.

[jaxjace]

Peter2000, on 28 January 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Who are the leaders within a faction, though? Whoever wins the "I AM ROLEPLAY" ****-waving contest? Thanks, don't want them dictating when/how I can play. Pass.

This is a sim, an rpg, whatever. get with it.