164 replies to this topic

[Drunk Canuck]

DarthRevis, on 28 January 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Again, Please READ MY WHOLE POST.

You are arguing with yourself at this point. Please show me where I said that.....Because that quote above you said we may both do as we please because there are no rules against it. only players asking other player to help with what they feel is the most important.

You need to re read and comprehend what i said before you post bud. We already went over this and I am finished repeating myself.


Also, big shocker, I DON'T CONTROL MY FACTION!

I can hardly control the members we have....and why would I even want to do that? I'm no Khan, Or where did i say i wanted to? and so what we criticized you? Cant handle a little criticism? Need to stay off the internet then. Criticism and insulting are two different things.....we may disagree and be critical all we want as long as it is not rude or insulting what the big deal? we are all adults here from what i can tell.

I was not implying that you specifically, were in control of the faction, however as a combined entity, it seems like the Smoke Alliance and a few other loyalists, had a problem with what we did and it was presented in a way that we felt was overly critical of what was our decision as well as completely unnecessary, and it was obvious from the first few posts onward that some of the units wanted to reign in and control what we were doing.

Here is a quote from that thread that had me up in arms, because it's obvious that the loyalists want it so mercenaries don't spoil their precious alliances.

Reverend Poison, on 16 January 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Agreed.
However, factions should have control over who works for them. So who hired them? Not me.
Am I correct in assuming that PGI posts contracts with a certain amount of cbills attached to each of these contracts and merc units are free to pick and choose? Sooooo Clans and Houses have no control over which Merc units come and go within their factions?
There needs to be an economy. Instead of PGI handing out cash, the hiring unit/faction should have to pay the merc units out of their coffers. This would create competition amongst the merc units as they would have to bid on a contract instead of just "Here ya go." Only the best merc units that can deliver would survive in such a free market and the rest would go broke and be forced to join a faction.

And my whole issue to this day has been that no other player should be in control of what I choose to do or what any unit chooses to do, because units themselves, especially mercenaries, are a collective entity much like an alliance. If I bid on a CSJ contract, you bet your cat's tail I am going to fight in whatever attack lanes are available to me, regardless of what alliances your faction has created outside of the game.

Of course, this is still beta so obviously many features are missing, in due time I hope we can find solutions that will allow mercenaries to have some freedom of fighting within a faction, however don't expect any mercenaries to join a faction that refuses to use one of it's only attack lanes.

[Gyrok]

Drunk Canuck, on 28 January 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

No, and I have already given enough reasons in recent weeks as to why allowing loyalists control over mercenaries is a bad idea. But if you would like me to keep outlining them, I will continue to do so.

1. Mercenaries would have no combat freedom unless they can fight for the faction anywhere in the Inner Sphere.
2. Alliances would be forced upon those who wish to take a contract with a faction, which means that current issues like the CSJ/CGB alliance would make the game less fun and there would be even more issues of lack in fights for mercenaries.
3. It would continue to balloon the problem of faction imbalance, as the factions that offer the most money are going to get preferred and those with the money would be the most successful factions in CW.

1.) Sure you would, take some contract from another Unit. Unit Leaders would indicate only what their unit wants. There may be several units from FRR put out contracts for example. One unit perhaps says to hit CGB, maybe another says hit wolf and steiner. Once the contract is picked up, it is gone. So no 2 merc units can take that same contract.

2.) You are being paid by an employer to fight where they want. If you do not like the terms, do not take the bloody contract. No one is forcing you to do anything.

3.) The game would still offer contracts (I would recommend generic contracts be baseline pay plus any faction bonuses for population, and against a single opposing faction of opposite tech only, unit contracts can be more heavily incentivized), and the units putting contracts out would also receive the same faction bonuses plus whatever other incentives.

Edited by Gyrok, 28 January 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[jay35]

I feel like Mercs shouldn't deal in faction LP. They aren't part of a true faction. They should just gain general LP, cumulative, and the more LP a merc unit gains, the better contracts it can access and the better rewards and discounts it receives from the nation to which it is allied at any given time (which can still be distinct and separate from the rewards and discounts provided to faction loyalists so loyalty has incentive as well). This would seem to resolve many of the current issues and allow the flexibility to balance Mercs separately from faction loyalists to ensure both remain appealing and competitive roles to take.

------------


"2.) You are being paid by an employer to fight where they want. If you do not like the terms, do not take the bloody contract. No one is forcing you to do anything."

No, the contract would spell out where the fight is, which is part of the terms and how we know whether we want to agree to it or not.

Edited by jay35, 28 January 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[CutterWolf]

Drunk Canuck, on 28 January 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

I was not implying that you specifically, were in control of the faction, however as a combined entity, it seems like the Smoke Alliance and a few other loyalists, had a problem with what we did and it was presented in a way that we felt was overly critical of what was our decision as well as completely unnecessary, and it was obvious from the first few posts onward that some of the units wanted to reign in and control what we were doing.

Here is a quote from that thread that had me up in arms, because it's obvious that the loyalists want it so mercenaries don't spoil their precious alliances.



And my whole issue to this day has been that no other player should be in control of what I choose to do or what any unit chooses to do, because units themselves, especially mercenaries, are a collective entity much like an alliance. If I bid on a CSJ contract, you bet your cat's tail I am going to fight in whatever attack lanes are available to me, regardless of what alliances your faction has created outside of the game.

Of course, this is still beta so obviously many features are missing, in due time I hope we can find solutions that will allow mercenaries to have some freedom of fighting within a faction, however don't expect any mercenaries to join a faction that refuses to use one of it's only attack lanes.

This is where your missing the boat. Reading this response leads me to beleave that you have never been in any league that had community warfare/planetary setup. Which is fine if that's true but you have to realize that in every Battletech/mechwarrior game ever made Merc's were not just free to do whatever they wanted to do. The reason was "logistics" Merc's lack the capital to repair, rearm, pay for jumpship transport or Dropships. The employer pick up these costs or supplied part of them. Plus, Mercenary's needed to live up to their employers expectations, after all your working for them not you. If you were to do this, "I am going to fight in whatever attack lanes are available to me, regardless of what alliances your faction has created" this would be breaking that agreement, when your employed by a unit you are representing them and breaking any alliances they have would be as if that employer was doing it themselves. That type of behavior would earn you a bad rating at The independent Mercenary Review and Bonding Commission. It rates Merc units based on the quality of their personnel, their equipment and experience. Higher ratings attract higher rates of pay and more favorable terms in contract negotiations. The lower your rating the faster you would fine yourself sitting on the sidelines with nothing to do. That is just a small part of how CW is suppose to work. Its not suppose to be just a free for all anything goes so who cares what I do type of thing.

[RG Notch]

CutterWolf, on 28 January 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Its not suppose to be just a free for all anything goes so who cares what I do type of thing.

It's apparently supposed to be what a small subset of self selected people care to do.

[CutterWolf]

RG Notch, on 28 January 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

It's apparently supposed to be what a small subset of self selected people care to do.

Right now that would be entirely true as CW sits today.

[Drunk Canuck]

CutterWolf, on 28 January 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

This is where your missing the boat. Reading this response leads me to beleave that you have never been in any league that had community warfare/planetary setup. Which is fine if that's true but you have to realize that in every Battletech/mechwarrior game ever made Merc's were not just free to do whatever they wanted to do.

Prior to MWO? No, I am not that old nor was I as devoted to BT as many others in this game are when I was younger. Heck, I was 10 years old when MW3 came out.

I would be fine with mercenaries having a true role if it wasn't for the obvious control problems that some of the loyalists, especially among the Clans, desire to have over hired guns. I think the only way for a mercenary system to work is to have contract bids that are automated by the system, which means that they have to be created through development time and that would be a lot of work, especially as CW starts to expand in complexity. Basically, the contracts would have to vary, so that even if I took a CSJ contract, it is one that assigns me to fight on a specific planet, even if it is a Clan occupied planet. It seems the loyalists among the Clans want to avoid Clan vs Clan fighting but in reality that needs to be a thing because it is part of the lore and it would certainly make CW less of an IS pug stomping zerg rush.

[Gyrok]

Drunk Canuck, on 28 January 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

Prior to MWO? No, I am not that old nor was I as devoted to BT as many others in this game are when I was younger. Heck, I was 10 years old when MW3 came out.

I would be fine with mercenaries having a true role if it wasn't for the obvious control problems that some of the loyalists, especially among the Clans, desire to have over hired guns. I think the only way for a mercenary system to work is to have contract bids that are automated by the system, which means that they have to be created through development time and that would be a lot of work, especially as CW starts to expand in complexity. Basically, the contracts would have to vary, so that even if I took a CSJ contract, it is one that assigns me to fight on a specific planet, even if it is a Clan occupied planet. It seems the loyalists among the Clans want to avoid Clan vs Clan fighting but in reality that needs to be a thing because it is part of the lore and it would certainly make CW less of an IS pug stomping zerg rush.

Because it is clearly noted in ALL of the lore that the only bickering during the invasion was entirely diplomatic.

Make no mistake, no clan stopped to worry about other clans, they were too concerned with outperforming the rest and reaching Terra first.

Once they reached Terra, the trials of possession, et cetera would have begun. The clans do not solve issues among themselves for issues by fighting over planets unless it is specifically a Trial of Possession for said planet. Instead, it would be a simple circle of equals to solve disputes.

The reality of the situation is that the lack of understanding of the way of the clans leads mercs to think that "they know best". The fact remains, you clearly do not.

As for Clans versus Clans combat, Clans have been participating in such combat since clans launched 7 months ago. We have held internal trials, as well as fought against other Clans training and preparing for the invasion. Mercs may not have had this opportunity, or taken advantage of opportunities to do so...especially those who participated in leagues that banned clan omnimechs for various reasons. The reality is, we want to fight the Inner Sphere. If you wish to fight in Clan omnimechs against Clan omnimechs, then skirmish, go to a private lobby, whatever you like to get your fix.

However, remember that *YOU* are foisting what you perceive as fun upon a group of *OTHER* players who do not perceive your same vision of fun as entertaining. If you think Clan loyalists are attempting to be controlling, it is because boundaries have consistently been crossed at our expense.

Thus, the contract system needs to have units with the capability to place contracts that are far more rewarding than a generic contract to fight for X faction.

For example:

Generic Contract (A):

The Lyran Commonwealth seeks a Mercenary Corps with MRBC rating of C or greater to attack and defend against Clan Jade Falcon.

Duration of contract: 7 days

Signing bonus: 0 cbills

Rated pay: 600,000 cbills + 75,000 cbills (MRBC corresponding base pay grade for faction plus population bonus)

Report to Lyran Command for details and coordination. Breaching this contract will result in a penalty equivalent to double the early termination penalties.

Example Unit Contract (A):

The First Federated Suns Armored Corps seek a Mercenary Corps with MRBC rating of B or greater to attack the Free Worlds League.

Duration of Contract: 14 days

Signing bonus: 25 million cbills transferred to unit coffers (donated by Unit placing contract)

Rated pay: 600,000 cbills + 75,000 cbills + 250,000 cbills for win percentage exceeding 80% (same formula plus bonus qualifier)

Report to The First Federated Suns Armored Corps headquarters for details and coordination. Breaching this contract will result in penalties three times the early termination penalty and forfeiture of signing bonus held in escrow until contract completion.

Now, which contract looks more appealing to you? Generic Contract against a faction, or Unit Contract against a faction?

EDIT:

A MRBC rating could be established that took into account contracts completed successfully + contracts completed unsuccessfully + contracts breached + win percentage + tags dropped on target worlds to generate a letter grade rating. All Mercenary Corps could start with a C rating, and their performance would directly reflect their rating. Units could leave comments on a MRBC profile about effectiveness, and so forth, though could not directly effect the score on MRBC.

Edited by Gyrok, 28 January 2015 - 07:32 PM.

[RG Notch]

Only certain people should be allowed to ruin other people's fun and plans, gotcha.

[Harathan]

Not sure the eye roll is justified, given that you just ignored the suggestions Gyros just posted and decided to make a flippant remark instead.

[Drunk Canuck]

It's all well and good to suggest all that Gyrok, but adding in a mercenary system is going to take a lot of work. Yes, it needs to happen, but then you pretty much ignore the loyalists in terms of giving them some sort of system as well, since merc contracts would encompass every faction and active planet. And how would they factor into all of this? They would need bonuses and rewards from their houses for supporting the faction but contracts for mercs would need to yield substantially more loyalty and rewards depending on the conditions if the contract.

[Dracol]

Gyrok, on 28 January 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

-snip-
As for Clans versus Clans combat, Clans have been participating in such combat since clans launched 7 months ago. We have held internal trials, as well as fought against other Clans training and preparing for the invasion. Mercs may not have had this opportunity, or taken advantage of opportunities to do so...especially those who participated in leagues that banned clan omnimechs for various reasons. The reality is, we want to fight the Inner Sphere. If you wish to fight in Clan omnimechs against Clan omnimechs, then skirmish, go to a private lobby, whatever you like to get your fix.
-snip-

There is one point some people keep failing to realize. Community Warfare introduced 3 new types of games: IS v IS / Clan v Clan / Clan v IS.

It is correct, Clan v Clan private matches were available. But, the ability to drop against the MWO population in general in a battle that pays c-bills and exp with tech restrictions is only available in Community Warfare. That experience can never be replaced with private matches.

To hold lore up as the end all be all reason to not have Clan v Clan Community Warfare conflict limits an already limited game mode. Mind you, one also has to ignore the fact Clans did work with at least 1 Merc unit, the Wolf's Dragoons.

The lore also had the advantage that the race to Terra among the Clans could be told with the story's about the political bickering all Clans participated in. MWO only has combat to represent that Clan v Clan struggle to the masses of MWO, lore purists and non-purists alike.

[RG Notch]

Harathan, on 28 January 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

Not sure the eye roll is justified, given that you just ignored the suggestions Gyros just posted and decided to make a flippant remark instead.

I guess you missed the part he bolded.

[Gyrok]

Dracol, on 28 January 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

There is one point some people keep failing to realize. Community Warfare introduced 3 new types of games: IS v IS / Clan v Clan / Clan v IS.

It is correct, Clan v Clan private matches were available. But, the ability to drop against the MWO population in general in a battle that pays c-bills and exp with tech restrictions is only available in Community Warfare. That experience can never be replaced with private matches.

To hold lore up as the end all be all reason to not have Clan v Clan Community Warfare conflict limits an already limited game mode. Mind you, one also has to ignore the fact Clans did work with at least 1 Merc unit, the Wolf's Dragoons.

The lore also had the advantage that the race to Terra among the Clans could be told with the story's about the political bickering all Clans participated in. MWO only has combat to represent that Clan v Clan struggle to the masses of MWO, lore purists and non-purists alike.

Negative, Clans did not "work" with Wolf's Dragoons.

As of 3050, the last communications with WD were 17 years earlier in 3033. Hence, when the lost ComStar vessel was captured, Leo Showers had an easy time getting clans to invade because they did not know what was going on in the Inner Sphere anymore.

You really need to read some of this stuff.

Quote

[color=#959595]It's all well and good to suggest all that Gyrok, but adding in a mercenary system is going to take a lot of work. Yes, it needs to happen, but then you pretty much ignore the loyalists in terms of giving them some sort of system as well, since merc contracts would encompass every faction and active planet. And how would they factor into all of this? They would need bonuses and rewards from their houses for supporting the faction but contracts for mercs would need to yield substantially more loyalty and rewards depending on the conditions if the contract. [/color]

Loyalists can issue contracts, Mercs can take contracts.

Loyalists get higher rewards from their faction for being permanent contracts. Basically more LP, and perhaps faction specific rewards for each faction...specific chassis variants, or what have you.

Mercs could get some kind of generic LP and use those for the factions that they have rank with, but there would have to be some sort of limit to what they could achieve in terms of the loyalty rewards for a given faction (i.e. a reason to stay a loyalist).

These are all some of the ideas I have...any other suggestions?

[Alexander Steel]

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Mind you, one also has to ignore the fact Clans did work with at least 1 Merc unit, the Wolf's Dragoons.

Wolf's Dragoons fought the clans tooth and nail once the clans arrived in the IS. A Better example would be The Kell Hounds and Clan Wolf in Exile teaming up against the Jade Falcons. Of course by that time one could argue if CWiE had the right to be called a real Clan or were effectively part of the Inner Sphere.

The only other place I might think to look in lore would be once the Ghost Bears become an IS power and become the Ghost Bear Dominion, did they ever hire mercs? I'm thinking no, just because both the Clan part in the Ghost Bears and the FRR part didn't like mercs... so probably not.

Quote

Because it is clearly noted in ALL of the lore that the only bickering during the invasion was entirely diplomatic.

This is also true of IS vs IS conflict. If you go by the lore, then Clans don't fight Clans and IS don't fight IS until 3057 the Year that Liao and Marik go after the Federated Suns and Jade Falcon and Wolf tear each other up. Heck from the "Lore" Hanse Davion paid to have the Kell Hounds and Wolf's Dragoon save the Draconis Combine Capital.

Add on: CW is going to be awfully boring if all we have is IS vs Clan. Probably not so good for the Clans either because of a numbers issue. Even more so if Clans can't use Mercs because of the lore.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 28 January 2015 - 11:05 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vlad Ward, on 28 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

That has come up a few times in various threads and even a quick glance at the numbers involved can easily demonstrate that there is no viable way for House units to be able to afford the kind of prices that Merc units should be charging.

People tend to look at MW2: Mercs and see 1.5 million c-bill contracts for a planet defense and think that's a reasonable price to pay for mercs in MWO. The reality is that even a single 12-man running a low average of 500k a match is bringing in 6 million unit c-bills a game, which can easily hit 60-100 million c-bills in a single night's planet defense. Compared to that, 1.5 million c-bills is peanuts.

LOL Your logic is backwards. No House would pay a Merc Command 500K per soldier PER MISSION unless that command is the Black Widow Company.

A Merc, a Elite Merc, Non Officer made 1200-2000 Cbills a Month! All the rest went to the Company Coffer to pay for R&R and basic maintenance.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 January 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Gyrok, on 28 January 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

Because it is clearly noted in ALL of the lore

This isn't lore, and will never be lore. I'm sorry this offends you and many other clan roleplayers. As it stands, MWO has developed its own lore over the past 3 years, and it's what's shaping the game, alliances, mercs, and everything else.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 29 January 2015 - 03:50 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

A Merc, a Elite Merc, Non Officer made 1200-2000 Cbills a Month! All the rest went to the Company Coffer to pay for R&R and basic maintenance.

Yup in the B-Tech lore and game somebody couldn't be an officer in a really good unit and highly skilled at his job, work his entire life and if he never spent a single c-bill still wouldn't have enough money to buy his own mech.

Also in the lore most Merc units go bankrupt, if your mech blows up it isn't magically there again when you get back to your hanger, and dying while piloting is a real thing. But hey, we have to have everything be like the "Lore".

The other problem with making contracts player controlled is that factions that do well will be able to outbid factions that are getting their butt's kicked just because wins give you more money. Factions with the strongest and most number of house units will have WAY more cash to spend than factions that are losing. Which basically will beg for Bandwagoning.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alexander Steel, on 29 January 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

Yup in the B-Tech lore and game somebody couldn't be an officer in a really good unit and highly skilled at his job, work his entire life and if he never spent a single c-bill still wouldn't have enough money to buy his own mech.

Also in the lore most Merc units go bankrupt, if your mech blows up it isn't magically there again when you get back to your hanger, and dying while piloting is a real thing. But hey, we have to have everything be like the "Lore".

The other problem with making contracts player controlled is that factions that do well will be able to outbid factions that are getting their butt's kicked just because wins give you more money. Factions with the strongest and most number of house units will have WAY more cash to spend than factions that are losing. Which basically will beg for Bandwagoning.

Actually I was using teh TT Merc Command creation rules. A starting Green Merc Warrior was paid a base salary of 700C-bills a month. Not canon fiction, Game Mechanic.

As to the being out bid... You know Mercs switch Loyalties right? Be it because the original cause is lost, or teh command is just greedy. Merc Loyalty CAN BE BOUGHT.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 January 2015 - 04:47 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

Actually I was using teh TT Merc Command creation rules. A starting Green Merc Warrior was paid a base salary of 700C-bills a month. Not canon fiction, Game Mechanic.

I know where you got that from, it's from the MechWarrior Table Top rules. It's been reprinted in several different source books. My points still stand.

Quote

As to the being out bid... You know Mercs switch Loyalties right? Be it because the original cause is lost, or teh command is just greedy. Merc Loyalty CAN BE BOUGHT.

Right but the job of the Devs isn't to try to make a real life MechWarrior sim, but a fun game. In which case issues like bandwagoning and once a faction gets knocked down they never have a chance to recover are valid *game* design points to avoid.