155 replies to this topic

[Ratpoison]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 January 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

Another thing I notice about that video, its an 8v8 right? I notice how there is ALOT more movement and people spreading about the map. Almost seems like its proved the point to me, 8v8 would only be good for this game. It would promote people to spread out more, prevent the deathball, kinda increase TTK by default and just make the game a more enjoyable experience.

And that RoF...dear god......

I've missed 8v8 since the day they took it out. Less deathball, more lance based tactics. How Mechwarrior should be.

[jlawsl]

Did the 6 ac2 KCC in a two matches-both 3 kills, mid 800 damage. It still heats up pretty quickly firing all 6 and the damage speads more. It allows for more long/mid range snap shots that hit, where as other ballistics other then gauss would miss. It allows for more assist, but the damage to heat is reasonable. I didn't get a feeling of any more or any less power then a 4 ac5 KCC. It is actually a usable build now.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 28 January 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

So macro games... barely pulling between 200 and 400 and 1 kill.

Non macro, feel this is totally overpowered at some points.

Totally overpowered relative to 36 tons of ammo devouring ballistics? That's a hell of a lot of weaponry.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 28 January 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

Totally overpowered relative to 36 tons of ammo devouring ballistics? That's a hell of a lot of weaponry.

Which also have a very low upfront alpha, and require continuous facetime.

[Koniving]

Wintersdark, on 28 January 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

Totally overpowered relative to 36 tons of ammo devouring ballistics? That's a hell of a lot of weaponry.

Totally overpowered like most other things in MWO. Kills too quickly. Too much PP FLD. Like everything else.
But with the macro spreading the fire and reducing the firing rate (and making it feel greater by firing them all separately), it feels like great fun without screams of rage, even on the receiving end.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 28 January 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Which also have a very low upfront alpha, and require continuous facetime.

Yeah, that's where I was going with that. 6xAC2 _should_ do a lot of damage, as it will spread a lot, generate monstrous heat, and leave you totally vulnerable while firing.

I'm sure its brutal against horrifically bad/new players who stare at you and die, but is it worse than say a 6 lbx ac5 direwolf (which is basically just a joke build its so bad)?

[Lord Perversor]

i'm weeping tears of joy my Quad ac/2 jager is back on kick ass time !!

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 28 January 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Yeah, that's where I was going with that. 6xAC2 _should_ do a lot of damage, as it will spread a lot, generate monstrous heat, and leave you totally vulnerable while firing.

I'm sure its brutal against horrifically bad/new players who stare at you and die, but is it worse than say a 6 lbx ac5 direwolf (which is basically just a joke build its so bad)?

Hey, I actually once used a 5 LB 5-X + 4 ERML Dire Whale build, and I could farm big damage + kill values real fast. But that was prior to all the various nerfs, so maybe it wouldn't be as great in modern-day.

Koniving, on 28 January 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Totally overpowered like most other things in MWO. Kills too quickly. Too much PP FLD. Like everything else.
But with the macro spreading the fire and reducing the firing rate (and making it feel greater by firing them all separately), it feels like great fun without screams of rage, even on the receiving end.

The AC/2 is PPFLD on paper, but in practice the fast RoF means that small fidgeting in aim and/or target evasion/twisting will cause damage spreading. It requires a combination of steady maintained aim and/or a receptive target who likes to eat dakka.

Edited by FupDup, 28 January 2015 - 06:21 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 28 January 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Totally overpowered like most other things in MWO. Kills too quickly. Too much PP FLD. Like everything else.
But with the macro spreading the fire and reducing the firing rate (and making it feel greater by firing them all separately), it feels like great fun without screams of rage, even on the receiving end.

too much ppfld? Its 12 pts, and even that will often not hit all the same target component due to funky convergence with the two wide set arms.


The question is is it overpowered relative to everything else. I don't disagree with you re: overall ttk etc, but that's not the discussion at hand. What IS relevant is: is a 6, or 4 ac2 build overpowered relative to say 4ac5's? Large lasers? Dual gauss+2erll, etc.

[White Bear 84]

Divine Retribution, on 28 January 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

I would also have liked Koniving's post.... but I saw the word macro.

Such a dirty word...

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Is this effective immediately? Without a hot fix/patch?

[Gamuray]

... Soooo... just tested chaining two ac2's on my Jager... Definately still feeling ghost heat. Firing 1 gets me barely a bit of movement on my heat bar (max 1% increase) ... but after a few seconds evenly chained, they give me 5-7% heat (per round). It isn't exponentially increasing like before, but ghost heat definitely is still affecting them.. It's just a flat heat increase is all.

Never mind! Just found an earlier post about it only being testing grounds!

Edited by Gamuray, 28 January 2015 - 06:57 PM.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 28 January 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

The AC/2 is PPFLD on paper, but in practice the fast RoF means that small fidgeting in aim and/or target evasion/twisting will cause damage spreading. It requires a combination of steady maintained aim and/or a receptive target who likes to eat dakka.

I'm aware.
When you get an enemy that gives you that face time, you'll be killing people faster than quad AC/5s would.

I'm referring to MWO as a whole, with too much PPFLD.

And where you hit, if you can hit consistently, will get some serious hits. Whether you can hold that is another story entirely.

What I was referring to, is the feel and damage dealt by the macro version (which everyone is so afraid of) isn't that great, and honestly it feels right... where the simultaneous fire of 6 AC/2s is 1) too hot, and 2) feels too strong in comparison to the macro. But that is the problem with every weapon in MWO.

[skill gap]

If heat sinks weren't adding heat capacity most weapons never would have needed ghost heat in the first place. It would also prevent the absurd alphas, that make this game play more like Counterstrike than a Mechwarrior game.

edit: Cycle times are also too short.

Edited by gumpy2k7, 28 January 2015 - 06:37 PM.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 28 January 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

I'm aware.
When you get an enemy that gives you that face time, you'll be killing people faster than quad AC/5s would.

The quad AC/5 requires a bit less tonnage (8x4 vs 6x6) and less ammo (also less tonnage), fewer heatsinks, and less facetime. Lower risk, lower reward....and some would argue that even then the quad AC/5 is "overall" more effective even if it loses out in that one circumstance.

Koniving, on 28 January 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

I'm referring to MWO as a whole, with too much PPFLD.

And where you hit, if you can hit consistently, will get some serious hits. Whether you can hold that is another story entirely.

What I was referring to, is the feel and damage dealt by the macro version (which everyone is so afraid of) isn't that great, and honestly it feels right... where the simultaneous fire of 6 AC/2s is 1) too hot, and 2) feels too strong in comparison to the macro. But that is the problem with every weapon in MWO.

But does it feel "too strong" compared to the best loadouts/weapons in MWO? Balance is a process based mostly on relative comparisons...

Edited by FupDup, 28 January 2015 - 06:40 PM.

[Shade4x]

oh god if we could get rid of heat scale...... I'm all for this

[LordKnightFandragon]

Koniving, on 28 January 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

That burst fire is beautiful, isn't it? Like a 3 round burst. And that firing rate? Super slow compared to the regular firing rate.

Anyway first try... found AC/2s completely worthless. Gonna try without the macro this time. (No ghost heat though and no overheat.) A Centurion just laughed at me and destroyed my King Crab.

Round 2... this time in the testing ground. Increased the rate of the macro to 100 miliseconds between each attempt to pull the trigger (from 300 miliseconds), and hit massive ghost heat.

Yeah, basically doing what every game does....buffs the little **** until the big **** is more a detriment to drive.....

Big **** is big because its supposed to be well armored, well armed and fearsome to fight.

But, every game always buffs up the little **** to be just as well, if not better armed then the big ****, and armored such that the big stuff's armor doesnt matter so much, and given the big **** is bigger and easier to hit, and the little **** is faster and packs the same firepower....the little **** just wins.....case and point really with a Direwolf....its big, its fearsome, but its mostly a joke...it dies so damn fast without having done much.

They nerfed its mobility, its agility and its angles of fire...but everything else is buffed such that the Direwolf is not viewed as a big scary gun boat, but rather a big easy target......

And that really is my biggest issue with quirks and the way games go about balancing it out.



And as for the AC's, the explosions and shake should scale accordingly, those AC2s are like 40mm cannons, yet they explode like 120mm....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 28 January 2015 - 06:48 PM.

[Punk Oblivion]

Oh happy day! *runs to get AC2's out of storage*

Going to run the obligatory Hex AC2 on my KGC for a couple matches just to relive the 6AC2 jager days of old. Then probably going to settle on 2AC5/3AC2

Also I hope the ghost heats stays gone! My future Enforcer-5P needs this in its life!

[LordKnightFandragon]

tortuousGoddess, on 28 January 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

I've missed 8v8 since the day they took it out. Less deathball, more lance based tactics. How Mechwarrior should be.

So who was it advocating for it so strongly that Russ wont give it back? It might also cut down on the Q times, as there would be more in the Q to create smaller matches. How would 8v8 work in CW?

Wait...was it the 12 man premades all wanting 12v12?

[TopRay]

Nothing has changed, overheat in 2 seconds flat.
Still as bad as it was, have they even removed it yet?

Edited by TopRay, 28 January 2015 - 07:00 PM.