717 replies to this topic

[Raggedyman]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 February 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Support has asked us to report it when the last man standing in Skirmish runs off and shuts down and stops playing.

citation requested.

Seriously, there are a lot of 'X said Y' being thrown around here, but I'm yet to see a solid reference beyond the stock T&Cs or forum post with the broad rulings.

[Reitrix]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 February 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

If you the last man standing in Skirmish and you plan on trying to take out the enemy, LET YOUR TEAM KNOW! You won't get spotted out to the enemy, you won't get reported, you may even find teammates telling you the condition of the enemy Mechs.

Lol, Don't kid yourself.
PuGs will betray you to the enemy just to get the match over and done with. An example;
I was last 'Mech standing in my LRMapult, had plenty of ammo due to an ECM heavy opponent.
Enemy team had 2 Heavies, a legged Medium and 2 messed up Direwolves. I said to the team: Guys, I'm going to do hit and runs in the urban area, i might be able to win us this match!
15 seconds later, "/all Hes in B4." then a running commentary on my position as i attempted to evade an enemy that now knew exactly where i was.

There was 9 minutes on the clock.

TL;DR, PuGs dont care about your heroic last stand, no matter how good your chances of winning happen to be. They just want to keep throwing their 'mechs into the c-bill grinder and you're just holding them up.

[Kotzi]

I applaud any last mech who fights, great to watch even more if he can pull some kills or even victory. Shutting down wont do anything. Your chances to win might be tiny but i have seen a commando killing last 3 Assault mechs in great condition too. Sure those things wont happen often, but you wont succeed if you dont try at all.

[Razimir]

I have a suggestion, change topic to: "STOP REPORTING THE LAST EGOISTIC IDIOT POWERED DOWN"

-Raz

[MoonfireSpam]

Do you guys enjoy looking for that last ECM spider on Alpine Peaks with 10 minutes to go? The one that will end the game with 13 damage and not shoot at all at any point.

(Stopped playing skirmish because I didn't enjoy it)

Edited by MoonfireSpam, 01 February 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Raggedyman, on 01 February 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

citation requested.

Seriously, there are a lot of 'X said Y' being thrown around here, but I'm yet to see a solid reference beyond the stock T&Cs or forum post with the broad rulings.

Email Support, ask yourself. I can't point to their forum post about it since it was an email response. It's PGI's way of dealing with the issue they were warned would happen when Skirmish was first proposed. Please note that shutting down and hiding as the last man standing in Skirmish is NOT expressly forbidden, nor is it expressly allowed, the subject isn't covered due to the nature of the action.
Shutting down to set up an ambush/split the enemy forces, totally acceptable to me, I'll give whatever intel I have on the remaining enemy forces. I've done it, others have done it, and we've pulled a victory out of certain defeat. We've also just gone out in a blaze of glory, but at least we PLAYED the game in the spirit intended.
Shutting down to hide and avoid dying, when that won't get a draw or a victory, only protects your KDR? Sorry, but that's clearly not playing the game in the spirit intended in my opinion, nor the majority opinion, so we'll report you for that.

Giving away position for anyone NOT DC'd or known to be AFK, that's a clear violation of the rules and should be reported as well. Not agreeing with someone's tactics is one thing, you report that, but you don't BREAK the rules yourself to punish them, that is not our place as players.

Reitrix, on 01 February 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Lol, Don't kid yourself.
PuGs will betray you to the enemy just to get the match over and done with. An example;
I was last 'Mech standing in my LRMapult, had plenty of ammo due to an ECM heavy opponent.
Enemy team had 2 Heavies, a legged Medium and 2 messed up Direwolves. I said to the team: Guys, I'm going to do hit and runs in the urban area, i might be able to win us this match!
15 seconds later, "/all Hes in B4." then a running commentary on my position as i attempted to evade an enemy that now knew exactly where i was.

There was 9 minutes on the clock.

TL;DR, PuGs dont care about your heroic last stand, no matter how good your chances of winning happen to be. They just want to keep throwing their 'mechs into the c-bill grinder and you're just holding them up.

I've had PUGs give me info on the enemy, last known positions, and give me tips on where I should set up. I've never had them give my location away. I've seen them do what you said to others, that's true, and I report them for it, that's clearly prohibited by the rules. I also give the enemy radically different coords and say the other guy is being a dbag and trying to send them on a wild goose chase, works if some of my teammates will support me, and they often do if the last man standing is actually going to fight. But you will run into real dbags, that's a fact, it's an online game, can't avoid them, sadly.

Again, report people who give coords out for someone who's not DC or known to be AFK, that is clearly prohibited by the rules.

Report people who shut down as the last man standing in Skirmish who do NOT try and fight at all, that's not prohibited nor allowed by the rules, it's a gray area, we are supposed to report them so PGI can see if it's a habit, thereby griefing, or if it's a one off, in which case the player may get warned or ignored by PGI unless they continue to do it and show a pattern. When you commit to a deathmatch game mode, hiding and not dying isn't playing in the spirit of the game since it does NOT gain you a win or a draw.

Superbowl weekend, so...if we're playing football, you get the ball and run AWAY from the goal or purposely ground it, what happens?

[MoonfireSpam]

Intentional grounding is a good analogy.

[SilentScreamer]

Threads like this pop up all the time, another example:
http://mwomercs.com/...ns/page__st__20

- Giving a teamates location away to the enemy.
- Powering down and hiding with no intent to participate further in the match.

Neither of these actions will win you friends on your team. The enemy may thank you, but they probably would not want you on their team.

Both are violations, not to mention a betrayal of your team. Two wrongs do not make a right....if you choose to "bird-dog" or report a teammates location to the enemy then you had better hope PGI agrees that your actions were justified.

No mercy for any player that reports a mech that is still moving.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 01 February 2015 - 08:17 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Raggedyman, on 01 February 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

That is way different to "You must present yourself for execution if you are the last man standing", it's also very woolly wording, specifically 'persistent' and 'non-participation'. (1)Are you talking across a series of games or during one round?(2) Is it within the last minute or the last five? (3) If I'm playing a scouting role and haven't scored damage one (but got multiple spots) have I been participating or not? (4)Is staying still and being hidden a core game mechanic? (5)If so does hiding behind a wall mean I should be reported?

My interpretation;

1. Series of games
2. Games are 15m, so, all 15m.
3. Yes, of course.
4. Yes, but not for the whole match, nor at the end when loosing.
5. Not for using cover. Out of bounds hiding and in locations that are exploits should and are reportable.

Doesn't take an English Major to understand the intent of these rules.

Specific clarifications should be asked of PGI and in a PM.

[jlawsl]

Ok, what about this one-Stormcrow with 4 CLrm 15s. I am in a AWS-9m on Canyon Network, and am firing my erppcs away. The stormcrow and a raven are back with me. Raven is firing beside me and running out to do stuff. Less then 2 minutes in, I notice a mech that had not moved much(besides me and the raven) go behind me, then into the water tanks and stop moving. We fight for another 5-6 minutes and its just me and the raven left. Then I die, then the raven. Stormcrow still had not moved and was powered down the whole time. Was it wrong that someone said he was in the tanks?

He ran out of missiles and had no other weapons and barely any damage. It was skirmish. Is that how you are supposed to be able to play-I could see having one weapon and waiting for an opportunity, or seeing if the other team will split up, but is it really against the rules to report the position of someone that missile dumped what little ammo they had in the first minute, then hid and shut down for 5-6 minutes that has no intention or possible way to even kill another player?

[Slepnir]

kristov

Quote

Support has asked us to report it when the last man standing in Skirmish runs off and shuts down and stops playing.

Except the little fact that egomane came into the forums and specifically said it wasn't against the rules.

vassago you're a troll and everybody knows it, stop trying to use wildly improbable scenerios to justify your breaking of the rules.

[SilentScreamer]

jlawsl, on 01 February 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Ok, what about this one-Stormcrow with 4 CLrm 15s. I am in a AWS-9m on Canyon Network, and am firing my erppcs away. The stormcrow and a raven are back with me. Raven is firing beside me and running out to do stuff. Less then 2 minutes in, I notice a mech that had not moved much(besides me and the raven) go behind me, then into the water tanks and stop moving. We fight for another 5-6 minutes and its just me and the raven left. Then I die, then the raven. Stormcrow still had not moved and was powered down the whole time. Was it wrong that someone said he was in the tanks?

He ran out of missiles and had no other weapons and barely any damage. It was skirmish. Is that how you are supposed to be able to play-I could see having one weapon and waiting for an opportunity, or seeing if the other team will split up, but is it really against the rules to report the position of someone that missile dumped what little ammo they had in the first minute, then hid and shut down for 5-6 minutes that has no intention or possible way to even kill another player?

PGI has left a "grey area" in the rules on purpose. They decide, period. One case against you will probably not be an issue. If PGI disagrees with your actions and you make a trend of it be prepared.

You could try to cover your rear by attempting to communicate with the Stormcrow pilot and giving them time for a response. Even that is a flimsy defense as the pilot may have chat turned off.

The only "safe" choices are 1) stay silent and wait for the match to end or 2) disconnect and drop in a new mech.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 01 February 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Yeah, I was in a match where our last guy was a disco that managed to reconnect just as the last person on our team died. When he tried to fight by scrimming with the three enemies that remained, one of our own teammates "reported" him for stalling.

The guy was actively fighting and hunting using guerrilla tactics and even managed to get a kill...how is that stalling???

On top of that, it was some of the best MechWarrior action many of us as spectators had seen in a while.

[Grickshaft]

Honestly move on and start another match? You guys are honestly saying you have 1 viable Mech? If he is powered down and will not participate in the rest of the match, quit out and report. This is what like once in 100 matches? Only thing i would be mad about if i was the opposing team AND still alive, yes. If not, you're dead, leave and get some more cbills. No need to have a heart attack over this

Edited by Grickshaft, 01 February 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Every so often you find yourself defenseless and alone. I guess you could shut yourself down and hide if you were boring... or you could suicide if you were lame... choose a blaze of glory if you're an unimaginative square... or you could go out with style.

Clearly the best thing to do in such a hopeless situation is to challenge your enemy to a dance-off.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Slepnir, on 01 February 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

kristov


Except the little fact that egomane came into the forums and specifically said it wasn't against the rules.

vassago you're a troll and everybody knows it, stop trying to use wildly improbable scenerios to justify your breaking of the rules.

Actually, what I see in his post is that Team Treason is against the rules and...that's about it. He doesn't discuss shutdowns otherwise, at least in the thread on the link SilentScreamer gave. Other posts of Egomane's I'm not personally aware of, and a quick search doesn't bring anything relevant up.

And since Support told me to report it when I see it, I'm gonna go with Support's request. Again, gray area, it's not prohibited nor is it specifically allowed, it has it's functional tactical uses when actually attempting to follow the deathmatch game mode spirit, provided you power back up and attack the enemy. Powering down and just hiding with no intention of engaging the enemy in a deathmatch game mode, you mind explaining to me how doing something that does nothing to further the objectives is even remotely considered a valid and permissible tactic, much less playing in the spirit of the game? Seriously, explain that to me in a valid and logical argument, and I'll consider your argument. Tell me you should be able to do it because! and I'll reject your argument out of hand as it's not an argument, it's what my kids would say when they had no valid reason for drawing on the tv or shoving toast in the VCR(yes, I had one of mine do that once upon a time, I'm old, get off of my lawn!). And yes, there are actually valid reasons for drawing on the tv(but Captain Kangaroo said to draw with him) and shoving toast in the VCR(they did it on Sesame Street), and my kids actually got off due to using them, just told to never do it again, and they didn't(grandkids have though, the tv drawing, they don't even know what a VCR is).

So far, the only reasons I've seen given for this action is...saving my KDR, I don't want to die because everyone else was an idiot and sucks at this game, and because I want to. Not valid, not logical, not acceptable.

[Catra Lanis]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 February 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Actually, what I see in his post is that Team Treason is against the rules and...that's about it. He doesn't discuss shutdowns otherwise, at least in the thread on the link SilentScreamer gave. Other posts of Egomane's I'm not personally aware of, and a quick search doesn't bring anything relevant up.

And since Support told me to report it when I see it, I'm gonna go with Support's request. Again, gray area, it's not prohibited nor is it specifically allowed, it has it's functional tactical uses when actually attempting to follow the deathmatch game mode spirit, provided you power back up and attack the enemy. Powering down and just hiding with no intention of engaging the enemy in a deathmatch game mode, you mind explaining to me how doing something that does nothing to further the objectives is even remotely considered a valid and permissible tactic, much less playing in the spirit of the game? Seriously, explain that to me in a valid and logical argument, and I'll consider your argument. Tell me you should be able to do it because! and I'll reject your argument out of hand as it's not an argument, it's what my kids would say when they had no valid reason for drawing on the tv or shoving toast in the VCR(yes, I had one of mine do that once upon a time, I'm old, get off of my lawn!). And yes, there are actually valid reasons for drawing on the tv(but Captain Kangaroo said to draw with him) and shoving toast in the VCR(they did it on Sesame Street), and my kids actually got off due to using them, just told to never do it again, and they didn't(grandkids have though, the tv drawing, they don't even know what a VCR is).

So far, the only reasons I've seen given for this action is...saving my KDR, I don't want to die because everyone else was an idiot and sucks at this game, and because I want to. Not valid, not logical, not acceptable.

You are talking about your preference nothing else. Either something is allowed or it is not. Different people may have different opinions on whether it is poor form or not but that has nothing to do with whether it is allowed or not.

Edited by Catra Lanis, 01 February 2015 - 09:09 AM.

[Raggedyman]

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 February 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

Email Support, ask yourself

Done, the email reads

Quote

Hi
This is sent to you with reference to the thread at http://mwomercs.com/...st-man-standing and with the intent of posting up the reply received.
Is it valid for Player A in to report Player B during a skirmish game if Player B is the last person on the last person on still active on their team and is not directly engaged in combat sufficient to the wishes of Player A?
Also can you explain what would count as "Persistent non-participation in core game mechanics" with regards to the disagreements between players over the tactic of counting out the clock / hiding from the other team as the last man standing in skirmish game?
Full discussion can be found on the thread so you'll be able to see the context from both sides.
Many thanks in advance and keep up the good work

Assuming they replay and that it doesn't have a "Don't Post This!" I'll put up the response as copy/pasta.

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 February 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

Report people who shut down as the last man standing in Skirmish who do NOT try and fight at all, that's not prohibited nor allowed by the rules, it's a gray area, we are supposed to report them so PGI can see if it's a habit, thereby griefing, or if it's a one off, in which case the player may get warned or ignored by PGI unless they continue to do it and show a pattern.

If you absolutely, positively feel that you must report someone for using tactics you object to then at least just report them, don't do the whole "I'm a gonna reporting youss!" dance.

Edited by Raggedyman, 01 February 2015 - 09:15 AM.

[Raggedyman]

PS WrathOfDeadguy, on 01 February 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Every so often you find yourself defenseless and alone. I guess you could shut yourself down and hide if you were boring... or you could suicide if you were lame... choose a blaze of glory if you're an unimaginative square... or you could go out with style.

Clearly the best thing to do in such a hopeless situation is to challenge your enemy to a dance-off.

On the very rare occasions I'm the last-one standing I go for the blaze of glory instant-death-suicide-charge, as so far no-one has accepted my offers of a Kerensky themed joke-off. Maybe I'm just pugging with the wrong people.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Catra Lanis, on 01 February 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

You are talking about your preference nothing else. Either something is allowed or it is not. Different people may have different opinions on whether it is poor form or not but that has nothing to do with whether it is allowed or not.

It's neither allowed nor disallowed, it's not mentioned, hence the gray area. Support wants us to report it when it happens, therefore it's a questionable tactic as it can be valid or it can be griefing, usage determines final result. PGI looks at the incident, looks at the user and their history, and makes the call, we just make sure they have the information so they can look.

Pretty sure there's no rule against me using nerve gas on the defense when playing football, I mean I KNOW it's not specifically prohibited, so it's ok, right? Ok, maybe just some chloroform on their mouthguards? That's ok right, I mean, it's not expressly forbidden after all, look in the rules.