254 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Rasc4l, on 04 February 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

With MWO's maps I've been wondering for a good time already that do the map designers at PGI really play this game. It should be clear that the world is full of examples of good maps for games like these. Which begs the next question that is the current situation with MWO's maps based on ignorance or ego? Don't the PGI mapmakers dare to copy MWLL maps and insist on reinventing the wheel or don't they simply know how to make a good one?

MWLL maps would suck, horribly suck. MWLL had stock mechs, we don't. maps like in MWLL would be a hell of lrm and snipermechs where anything else would enter a pointless existence, and having ecm or not would totally decide who is winning the matches because ecm is a lrm stealth bubble atm. Both may be Mechwarrior games, but they work still different.

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 February 2015 - 05:22 AM.

[That Dawg]

Couldn't they just steal a few maps from World of Tanks and mechanize them?

I often try to exploit the "we must battle here" pug masses to some success. but...pugs wont listen, and seemingly dont notice a lance trying to flank an encamped pack of enemy.

Anyone EVER drop into a pug match were the magic happens?
Everyone magically goes clockwise, or just sits, or does something no one ever does and its a STOMP?
Not the stomp from drunken angry nearsighted ELO, but a tactical stomp. The one both sides feel like...wow, we kicked ass, or wow, we got totally had
A plethora of maps are needed.
If that can't be had. MIX UP THE SPAWN POINTS. Randomize them...like you are now doing, again, in the test maps

And hey, in my mwo folder, there are some folders named gorge, island metropolis, badlands

wazzup?

[Escef]

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

There's two key differences between the DOTA map in the OP, the FPS maps from other games that people keep referencing and the CW maps we have for MWO.

• Side-lanes: There's no way to go from Lane 1 to Lane 2 to Lane 3 unless you want to spend 10 minutes walking back to base
  
• Map size vs mech speed. In games like CounterStrike or Quake, it doesn't take 5+ minutes of walking to get in position. You can often get from one side of the map to the other in about a minute, if no one's shooting at you. This makes the lane-maps especially unbearable in MWO.

You know that Boreal has a pass less than a minute away from the gates, right? You do know that the center lane on Rift has a pass into one of the flanking lanes, right?

[Alistair Winter]

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

You know that Boreal has a pass less than a minute away from the gates, right? You do know that the center lane on Rift has a pass into one of the flanking lanes, right?

On Boreal Vault, it doesn't make much of a difference, really. It's so easy for the defenders to relocate to defend a gate that is 200 meters further to the left or the right. It's kind of hard to talk about Boreal Vault and Sulfurous Rift together, because they're flawed in their own way. Sulfurous Rift has more in common with Hellebore Springs.

Boreal Vault is a crappy map for different reasons. Primarily because it's a 2 km long funnel into a meatgrinder.

On Rift, you can move from Beta to Alpha (though not to Gamma, for whatever reason), but it's a very slow process for your assault mechs. It's fairly easy for the defenders to see attacks coming. With these long and empty attack lanes, it's extremely easy for scouts to predict where the attacks are coming from. On Hellebore springs, from my experience so far, it's like PGI has taken the worst aspects of Boreal Vault and Sulfurous Rift and condensed them into one map.

[Escef]

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

On Rift, you can move from Beta to Alpha (though not to Gamma, for whatever reason), but it's a very slow process for your assault mechs.

Yeah, wooh, all, what, 6 to 8 of them out of your 48 mechs? Which may not all be out at once? Either play a swift assault mech or coordinate ahead of time so you don't amble to the wrong spot.

[Col Kurtz]

First of all, i really enjoy this game, it is definitively one of my favorite all time games. And that is mostly because of customization of the mech itself and the many different mechs. Too many now it seems. So my biggest complaint has always been maps. How bad they are and how few there is.

Please take a note from old BF games, make your maps work with your game modes. Get great mappers. We have enough mechs for now, put all your effort into great maps and more maps. The game is still great, but im getting so bored with these lifeless maps.

Not to mention, none make you feel like a big mech. Please stop using mountains as edge of map, i perfer, out of bounds.

[Ghogiel]

Lily from animove, on 04 February 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

MWLL maps would suck, horribly suck. MWLL had stock mechs, we don't. maps like in MWLL would be a hell of lrm and snipermechs where anything else would enter a pointless existence, and having ecm or not would totally decide who is winning the matches because ecm is a lrm stealth bubble atm. Both may be Mechwarrior games, but they work still different.

[Zypher]

Lily from animove, on 04 February 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

MWLL maps would suck, horribly suck. MWLL had stock mechs, we don't. maps like in MWLL would be a hell of lrm and snipermechs where anything else would enter a pointless existence, and having ecm or not would totally decide who is winning the matches because ecm is a lrm stealth bubble atm. Both may be Mechwarrior games, but they work still different.

Uh, not really, there were mechs in that game tailored to long range, but you still would see people playing brawlers all the time. You could always just add some cover in random spots on open maps for CW anyhow. In solo queue it wouldn't matter, you don't know what maps you would get so you can't build a mech in anticipation of a particular map.

I think the other part of the problem is objectives, both in CW and Solo, without meaningful objectives, and more then one, people will always blob up. It won't matter how large or dynamic the map is.

Solo makes it even worse, people don't often try to get a better position because you risk getting surprised or caught out in the open or alone. Since you only have 1 mech per match the risk isn't usually worth the reward, it's safer to stay with the herd. Again, this is as much to do with game dynamics and map dynamics.

Edited by Zypher, 04 February 2015 - 06:53 AM.

[Artgathan]

The comparison of MW:O's Sulfurous Rift to Summoner's Rift (from LoL) is a bit inaccurate. Yes, both maps are based around three "main" lanes. However, as someone has previously pointed out, Sulfurous Rift lacks the "Jungle" - the portion of the map between the lanes.

The Jungle allows for thinks like flanking maneuvers and surprise attacks, as your team can't see into that area unless you have people there (IE: scouts). Sulfurous Rift lacks this information deprivation mechanic, which is part of what makes LoL matches interesting.

[Tombstoner]

That Dawg, on 04 February 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

Couldn't they just steal a few maps from World of Tanks and mechanize them?

I often try to exploit the "we must battle here" pug masses to some success. but...pugs wont listen, and seemingly dont notice a lance trying to flank an encamped pack of enemy.

Anyone EVER drop into a pug match were the magic happens?
Everyone magically goes clockwise, or just sits, or does something no one ever does and its a STOMP?
Not the stomp from drunken angry nearsighted ELO, but a tactical stomp. The one both sides feel like...wow, we kicked ass, or wow, we got totally had
A plethora of maps are needed.
If that can't be had. MIX UP THE SPAWN POINTS. Randomize them...like you are now doing, again, in the test maps

And hey, in my mwo folder, there are some folders named gorge, island metropolis, badlands

wazzup?

Yes. when a pug is composed of team oriented but random players it spontaneously gells and you decimate the opfor. Mech type, LRM, ECM or not its a stomp.

People are too dumb to try something different and play each and every map one way.

I would love to see what would happen if we had a map called grass land... yup just a flat plan with nothing but grass no cover at all. the we could have a map called rolling hills where the hills are 1.5 mechs tall so every one can see every ones head.

Edited by Tombstoner, 04 February 2015 - 07:10 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Yeah, wooh, all, what, 6 to 8 of them out of your 48 mechs? Which may not all be out at once? Either play a swift assault mech or coordinate ahead of time so you don't amble to the wrong spot.

Or just play 3 Storm Crows + 1 Timber Wolf like everybody else.

It's not about coordinating ahead of time either. Sometimes you have to react to what the defenders are doing. You send 8 mechs to Alpha on Sulfurous Rift. An enemy scout sees you coming miles away. Do you still attack Alpha with 8 mechs, now that the defenders know you've got 8 mechs coming? Or do you divert to Beta, which takes a lot of time.

Even worse if you've been spotted on your way to Gamma, because there's no shortcut to any other routes.

And on Hellebore Springs, it doesn't matter if you're spotted, because switching attack lanes isn't a real alternative anyway. Nor is there any real room for maneuvers in those narrow corridors. Just board the train to the meat grinder.

These are terrible maps. There's no point trying to defend them, really. They're blatantly terrible. If it wasn't for the fact that mech combat is still fun in this game, even on bad maps, CW would be doing even worse than it is already.

[That Dawg]

Me? I would LOVE to see the day when giant triangles were no where to be seen.
Your mech would have a color scheme indicating YOUR team. i.e. Game painted all your legs red, or blue or green. You could pick your camo pattern and game would override with your teams colors.
Even matches with THREE teams of 6. Yeah baby, Sun Tzu, The Art of War

LRM locks ONLY with tag lasers- then you (friendly) could see the "tagged" mech and get a lock.
Friendly fire COST you repairs at the end of the game.
Instant keyboard commands i.e. 'watch our 6', 'flank left', 'flank right', 'RTB', 'help' with a map icon that lit up.

Assaults with limited radio range.
Scouts with extended radio range
All classes xp/gxp/cbills based on class rewards. i.e. A Scout to lit up targets, or capped could make as much as the assault who killed 5 and did 700 damage.

but, m'eh....never happen, too real for the masses.

[Necromantion]

I have to agree with the OP

[pbiggz]

Lily from animove, on 04 February 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

why? that map has also lanes, 3 of them tbh. don't see much difference. very much like sulfurous, why? well the 3 lanes are between the green hills, and resemple the gates of sulfurous. past the gates of sulfurous are many smaller industrial like buildings, which resemble very much the "urban like" surrounding of that map.

So basically they are both the same design of a map, jut looking different.
The only new is the open water, where no sane individual would go to without being sniped to death.

this map is tbh a 5 minute rush map tough the gates, open the generators, because they are horrible close to each other and then go to omega.
So the map does look different, but will not play different, except you have 2 pugs doing god knows what wird thing.
But indeed the map would be by visuals a nice addition and feel different by the looks. But it does not change the lane mechanic.



guess what? if you set up a defense for a tactical spot, you will very like try to choose terrain that ahs thse lanes, because your attackers pathes will be predictable.

You don't build an important military facility in a "fair" spot.

Lily from animove, on 04 February 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

MWLL maps would suck, horribly suck. MWLL had stock mechs, we don't. maps like in MWLL would be a hell of lrm and snipermechs where anything else would enter a pointless existence, and having ecm or not would totally decide who is winning the matches because ecm is a lrm stealth bubble atm. Both may be Mechwarrior games, but they work still different.

Everything you just said was... well... not to insult the deferentially able, but, ********.

MWLL is on almost the SAME BLOODY ENGINE.
MWO is using a narrow and simplified map design paradigm which is wasting resources and making the maps boring.
You have given no concrete evidence to prove that the game "works totally differently and the maps wouldn't work".
You are contradicting the many actual arguments in this thread because the idea that PGI could do wrong frightens you.
Go away and dont come back.

This game needs better maps. This game needs bigger maps. This game needs its current maps to be changed and improved upon. This game needs community made content.

[Tony Benoit]

With Paul looking at 4v4 maps, I'm really hoping they design them to be interesting.

River City first and foremost should be removed from the public queue and put in CW as a 4v4 map only. Its the only dimension where the map is big enough, and even then, its still just not a very good map.

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 05:06 AM, said:

MW:LL was made by a huge billion-dollar gaming company, you can't possibly expect MWO to have the same quality or size of maps, the ability to ride different sort of vehicles, pilot mechs with the same kind of interactive, detailed HUD or cockpits with working monitors.

The truth hurts, you know. You should tweet that one to Russ.

Lily from animove, on 04 February 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

MWLL maps would suck, horribly suck. MWLL had stock mechs, we don't. maps like in MWLL would be a hell of lrm and snipermechs where anything else would enter a pointless existence, and having ecm or not would totally decide who is winning the matches because ecm is a lrm stealth bubble atm. Both may be Mechwarrior games, but they work still different.

I see someone has never played MW:LL before. You should really stop posting before you hurt yourself, or the least download MW:LL and actually play and feel what a good map is.

Edited by NotMwHighlander, 04 February 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Escef]

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

Or just play 3 Storm Crows + 1 Timber Wolf like everybody else.

I drop Inner Sphere, same as you do. Don't give me that crap. I also run 1 assault mech in my drop deck, a BLR with a 340XL rigged as fire support, it's fast enough to reposition most of the time.

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

It's not about coordinating ahead of time either.

For the most part, it is. If your teams assaults are so consistently out of position than your team has screwed up.

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

Sometimes you have to react to what the defenders are doing. You send 8 mechs to Alpha on Sulfurous Rift. An enemy scout sees you coming miles away. Do you still attack Alpha with 8 mechs, now that the defenders know you've got 8 mechs coming? Or do you divert to Beta, which takes a lot of time.

You do what you have to do, you can't just magically teleport mechs. Don't play a war game if you are not prepared to deal with the fact that you are going to have opponents that do things to foil your plans. I swear, it becomes increasingly apparent that players want PvE because they have no idea how to deal with the fact that the opponent is not some brain dead algorithm.

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

Even worse if you've been spotted on your way to Gamma, because there's no shortcut to any other routes.

Yeah, sometimes the opponent finds you and pins you down. You want to cry about it? Good for you. Me? I'll use it. Get their attention, as much as possible. Use the Gamma team as a diversion. If your whole force is there, send the fast movers off to flank while the slower elements keep them occupied. A few shots here and there. You have 4 mechs per player, you can afford to spend a few on a diversion.

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

And on Hellebore Springs, it doesn't matter if you're spotted, because switching attack lanes isn't a real alternative anyway. Nor is there any real room for maneuvers in those narrow corridors. Just board the train to the meat grinder.

All of your whining, and it really is whining, boils down to the fact that you and your teams are tactically inept.

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

These are terrible maps.

Perhaps, but that's nothing compared to your gameplay. Get out of the 12v12 mindset, it's getting you slaughtered.

[Alistair Winter]

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

All of your whining, and it really is whining, boils down to the fact that you and your teams are tactically inept.

ggclose.

[Escef]

Alistair Winter, on 04 February 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

ggclose.

Wow, you can't even think hard enough to troll? No wonder you get your hindquarters handed to you so much that you have to come onto the boards and whine about the enemy team actually trying to oppose you. Suck it up, Buttercup.

[Alistair Winter]

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Wow, you can't even think hard enough to troll? No wonder you get your hindquarters handed to you so much that you have to come onto the boards and whine about the enemy team actually trying to oppose you. Suck it up, Buttercup.

We should hang out sometime.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Wow, you can't even think hard enough to troll? No wonder you get your hindquarters handed to you so much that you have to come onto the boards and whine about the enemy team actually trying to oppose you. Suck it up, Buttercup.

You have a knack for invalidating any argument you have with illogical posts like these.