254 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 04 February 2015 - 08:55 PM, said:

wow Ive never seen that book

and I had the gold zelda XD

it is the genuine official one, if you watch AVGN's video on the legend of zelda 2, he shows it off.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

Except when you do nothing to say my arguments are invalid, and simply complain, with no justification that I'm attacking him with fallacies, yes, that is what you are saying.

I just did something, I don't normally see it necessary to nitpick through entire quotefest because it is tedious and to others, the fallacies are often obvious.

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

This was not a comment about Winter specifically, but rather was a blanket statement of my frustration with certain segments of the community. If you, or Winter, think this was some kind of strawman or personal attack, that's totally on you.

Actually no, this is on you for both making a blanket statement, and for no communicating it well enough to where supporters of this argument see this as a strawman because IT IS a generalization and a misrepresentation.

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

So, it's a logical fallacy or some such because of opinion now? He has complained several times on this matter, in this thread, so at this point it's pretty fair to classify it as whining. Especially when what he is complaining about is due to the enemy team doing what they are supposed to be doing: taking advantage of opposing players while they are in an area that limits their choices. And I've got no sympathy there. If one goes into such an area than that individual has no one to blame but themselves.

Again, this is a problem with your perception. Revoicing or having to defend his position is different from complaining. Just because he isn't agreeing with you doesn't mean he is complaining :/
As for the topic, if a certain defense provides to strong of strength to the defending team (such as limited avenues of attack) then it is a valid complaint, the point of the game isn't to fight against unequal terms, it is to create unequal terms through gameplay (through tactics blah blah blah). Simply defending his position that a map style creates this inequality does not make it complaining just because you believe it so.

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

I do not find that going into limiting terrain and having the opposing team exploit that is a reasonable complaint.

Then that is your point to argue, not that he is complaining but WHY you consider it an invalid complaint. Throwing in obvious berating language doesn't reinforce your point any and detracts from your main point.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 04 February 2015 - 08:59 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Brody319, on 04 February 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

it is the genuine official one, if you watch AVGN's video on the legend of zelda 2, he shows it off.

Im just saying, I dont think I had one XD Like I said I dont think ive ever seen that

[Brody319]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 04 February 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

Im just saying, I dont think I had one XD Like I said I dont think ive ever seen that

That was for the original legend of zelda, if you had a gold one, it was probably the sequel

does this one look right? http://www.digitpres...20of%20Link.pdf

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Brody319, on 04 February 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

That was for the original legend of zelda, if you had a gold one, it was probably the sequel

does this one look right? http://www.digitpres...20of%20Link.pdf

no there was a gold original zelda

[Escef]

WM Quicksilver, on 04 February 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

Then that is your point to argue, not that he is complaining but WHY you consider it an invalid complaint. Throwing in obvious berating language doesn't reinforce your point any and detracts from your main point.

I will berate the idea that the option to make bad decisions be removed. It's a horrible idea. A major part of any kind of team game, whether it be sport or wargame, is taking advantage of the opponent making mistakes. Removing the option of making poor decisions does not help. Victory comes from planning and learning, learning comes from making bad decisions, and if you remove bad decisions as an option than you kneecap the whole damn thing.

When the crux of his argument is that he made bad decisions, and that instead of learning from them he wants to remove bad decisions as options, he is undercutting the entire community. That SHOULD be berated. Not just the obvious refusal to learn, not just misplacing of blame from his actions to the map itself, but that his proposed solution (as much as he proposes any solution) is that maps should be changed so that the community as a whole is denied the opportunity to learn that he has chosen to squander.

Yes, I berate that. And I make no apologies for that. I have no regret over that. It's a damned video game, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with being bad at it, nor for making mistakes while playing it. But suggesting that the option for mistakes be removed from what is supposed to be the most competitive game mode available is monumentally laughable.

[Tony Benoit]

Brody319, on 04 February 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

No i didn't you bring up the topic of "80s were better yo" I have the right to disagree, and so I did.




http://www.nesfiles....Zelda/Zelda.pdf

orly?

Oh hey I still have that book. It also came out with a big foldy world map of the game.

Good times. I wish I could get a big foldy map of the BT universe.

*I should also note I didn't buy the game in 1986. My older brother bought it in like 1990, so yeah grain of salt.

Edited by NotMwHighlander, 04 February 2015 - 09:30 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Brody319, on 04 February 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

No i didn't you bring up the topic of "80s were better yo" I have the right to disagree, and so I did.




http://www.nesfiles....Zelda/Zelda.pdf

orly?

Your point is moot. It fails to address the multitude of other examples I listed. Plus, that manual doesn't tell you how to beat the entire game. It provided a short starter tutorial and that's about it.

I stand by what I said regarding those PC games and other ones.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Escef, on 04 February 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

I will berate the idea that the option to make bad decisions be removed. It's a horrible idea. A major part of any kind of team game, whether it be sport or wargame, is taking advantage of the opponent making mistakes. Removing the option of making poor decisions does not help. Victory comes from planning and learning, learning comes from making bad decisions, and if you remove bad decisions as an option than you kneecap the whole damn thing.

When the crux of his argument is that he made bad decisions, and that instead of learning from them he wants to remove bad decisions as options, he is undercutting the entire community. That SHOULD be berated. Not just the obvious refusal to learn, not just misplacing of blame from his actions to the map itself, but that his proposed solution (as much as he proposes any solution) is that maps should be changed so that the community as a whole is denied the opportunity to learn that he has chosen to squander.

Yes, I berate that. And I make no apologies for that. I have no regret over that. It's a damned video game, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with being bad at it, nor for making mistakes while playing it. But suggesting that the option for mistakes be removed from what is supposed to be the most competitive game mode available is monumentally laughable.

How is making a defensive position more vulnerable or removing pathing removing bad decisions? If anything it makes bad decisions harder to understand, but it is far from removing bad decisions. Berating a viewpoint simply because you don't agree with it is in bad taste and is what truly undercuts any community.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 04 February 2015 - 09:35 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Brody319, on 04 February 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

That was for the original legend of zelda, if you had a gold one, it was probably the sequel

does this one look right? http://www.digitpres...20of%20Link.pdf

Uh, no, the original Legend of Zelda came in a gold cartridge...

http://www.ebay.com/...?lpid=82&chn=ps

oh, and coincidentally, the sequel was even harder and more convoluted than the first one.

[Davers]

So, this is now the Zelda thread?

[Brody319]

Mister Blastman, on 04 February 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

Uh, no, the original Legend of Zelda came in a gold cartridge...

http://www.ebay.com/...?lpid=82&chn=ps

oh, and coincidentally, the sequel was even harder and more convoluted than the first one.

guess its a good thing both games had HINTS in the booklets then.

Davers, on 04 February 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

So, this is now the Zelda thread?

no this guy says older games are better than new games because they were harder, and I point out that many of the same things that are in newer games are similar to the information you had with older games in the booklets and other game guides. just now some of that information is in the game and not in a book.

[Mister Blastman]

Brody319, on 04 February 2015 - 09:37 PM, said:

guess its a good thing both games had HINTS in the booklets then.

I've never seen that. And besides, you have done nothing to counter my other points about PC gaming.

(yes many had a short intro walkthrough on a two or four page cardstock but beyond that the entire game was a mystery).

Quit grasping at straws and trying to illustrate a point intelligently.

[YueFei]

Eh, even newer games that are kind of "hard" aren't that exciting because you can try over and over and over and over again from the last save point until you beat it.

I played the hell out of A-10 Tank Killer. In that game, you couldn't save. If you died, the game was over, and you had to start all over again. Your progress from mission to mission was saved, so you could finish a mission and quit, and come back to resume the campaign, but as soon as you died in a mission, that pilot was dead forever. I got so much more excitement out of that game simply because of that aspect. I think I only completed the campaign once, after trying dozens of times and dying in one mission or another.

[Mister Blastman]

Brody319, on 04 February 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

guess its a good thing both games had HINTS in the booklets then.




no this guy says older games are better than new games because they were harder, and I point out that many of the same things that are in newer games are similar to the information you had with older games in the booklets and other game guides. just now some of that information is in the game and not in a book.

No. Games these days do ridiculous amounts of stupid stuff...

For example... Exhibit A:



There you have it. A classical Doom 1 map versus the Half Life 2 design that has inspired countless FPS games ever since. They call them the "corridor" or "rail" shooter for a reason. It is because you are forced down a funnel and despite wanting to wander off, you can't. You must go in one direction and one only until the end.

There are exceptions, but this perfectly illustrates my point.

Oh, and how about stuff like...

"WARNING, YOU ARE GOING OUT OF BOUNDS!"



That video perfectly illustrates how stupid games are these days.

But, once again, there are odd exceptions like Dark Souls 1 and 2. One was much better than two when it comes to world design and layout. But I'm not alone on that. Most Dark Souls players agree on that, too. One was a better game. Two dumbed it down a bit unfortunately.

I can go on and on, really.

YueFei, on 04 February 2015 - 09:45 PM, said:

Eh, even newer games that are kind of "hard" aren't that exciting because you can try over and over and over and over again from the last save point until you beat it.

Exactly! There are no stakes!
Though Dark Souls does a great job building tension and Elite Dangerous will cost you dearly if you get blown up. There's no loading your game there.

Games need stakes and ownership. Stuff that makes you sweat and forces you to be screwed. I loved how old games purposefully tried to "**** you over."

[Brody319]

Mister Blastman, on 04 February 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

I've never seen that. And besides, you have done nothing to counter my other points about PC gaming.

(yes many had a short intro walkthrough on a two or four page cardstock but beyond that the entire game was a mystery).

Quit grasping at straws and trying to illustrate a point intelligently.

Give an Elder Scrolls game, FTL: Faster than Light, Civilization, Terraria, State of Decay, Don't Starve, Alien: Isolation ect, there are plenty of games that Don't hold your hand through the whole thing and teach you through gameplay. quit thinking of CoD and other bullshit games when you think of modern games because they aren't all like that. Because I can point to the original 3 mario brothers games and say, you go right and jump. and sum up the entire games. Every generation of game has linear games, and those tend to be the most popular because its simple minded for simple minded people, who have no experience with games.



but for ever linear game, there are a ton of non-linear ones that are complex and hard.


Oh we are bringing up auto saves now? Then I point to the Quick save, Save ANYWHERE you want, and retry as MUCH as you want.

Edited by Brody319, 04 February 2015 - 09:49 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mister Blastman, on 04 February 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

I havent read the post but the minute I saw that map, I went "I know that level" Its DOOM

[Mister Blastman]

Brody319, on 04 February 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

Give an Elder Scrolls game, FTL: Faster than Light, Civilization, Terraria, State of Decay, Don't Starve, Alien: Isolation ect, there are plenty of games that Don't hold your hand through the whole thing and teach you through gameplay. quit thinking of CoD and other bullshit games when you think of modern games because they aren't all like that. Because I can point to the original 3 mario brothers games and say, you go right and jump. and sum up the entire games. Every generation of game has linear games, and those tend to be the most popular because its simple minded for simple minded people, who have no experience with games.



but for ever linear game, there are a ton of non-linear ones that are complex and hard.


Oh we are bringing up auto saves now? Then I point to the Quick save, Save ANYWHERE you want, and retry as MUCH as you want.

Oh please. Elder Scrolls Oblivion totally holds your hand. So does Skyrim! If anything, Oblivion and Skyrim have dumbed down the series substantially since the pinnacle game Morrowind. Go back and play through Morrowind if you don't believe me. I did last year using the Overhaul mod.

And even Morrowind was dumbed down from Daggerfall in some respects...

Let's see, where to start...

Daggerfall had randomly generated non-linear dungeons. You could literally get lost in those things for hours, if not days.

Morrowind had semi-linear dungeons, unfortunately. That's the glaring downside to it versus Daggerfall. It elaborated and improved dramatically on many things though.

But, once we get to Oblivion and Skyrim we have stupid things like...

Map markers that show you where EVERYTHING is. It's no longer figure out where to go by talking to people. No, it is follow the compass! Can you get any dumber?

YES. YES YOU CAN!

Not only did they dumb down the quest finding system, they dumbed down the dialogue. Now, truth be told, Morrowind had nice dialogue but a lot was repetitive. But you had to dig and use your head to figure things out.

Not in Oblivion or Skyrim! There were like three or four lines of dialogue and that's it. Bam, done with the NPC. Move on. Oh, and while you're at it that super hard rare object that is legendary... is right on your map.

And then, when you got to the dungeons... they were on rails! Just walk in a straight (twisting) line and complete them.

Oh, what about the monsters... In Morrowind you could go places and get in over your head and get destroyed. Not in Oblivion or Skyrim! NOPE! Monsters level with you! You can totally beat the whole game at level 1. (You can cheat and do that with Morrowind too but that's completely different). The monster system after Morrowind is awful. That's why there are mods to fix it. Lots of mods. Because it sucks.

That's enough for now.

Edit: I almost forgot...


As a writer, I notice and take this one to heart. They dumbed down the writing considerably after Morrowind. The books are nauseating to read. Some of the worst sentence structure, flow, plot progression etc. I have ever seen can be found in the Oblivion and (especially) Skyrim books.

The books inside of Morrowind were a joy to read. The ones in Skyrim make my eyes bleed. They're horrible.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 04 February 2015 - 09:59 PM.

[Escef]

WM Quicksilver, on 04 February 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

How is making a defensive position more vulnerable or removing pathing removing bad decisions? If anything it makes bad decisions harder to understand, but it is far from removing bad decisions.

He complains of getting isolated and taking to long too relocate, and possibly jumped while in the process, of being spotted while on a long approach, blah blah blah. In other words, he made mistakes. He did stuff that was easily exploited by the enemy. And he wants easy fixes put in place on the map. Yes, that's wanting bad decision possibilities removed. Are you THAT incapable of seeing that? The fact that he complains about doing it says they were bad decisions, but he blames the map, and wants changes made so he can make these bad decisions with little to no repercussions.

Community Warfare is designed to be hardcore competitive mode. If you want crying baby mode, we have a new player experience being worked on, perhaps a(nother) thread on what belongs in the New Player Experience. I have no complaints about the idea of proverbial training wheels there. New players need to be eased in, MWO has an unforgiving learning curve. But CW? Up your game or go back to the 12v12 queues.

WM Quicksilver, on 04 February 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

Berating a viewpoint simply because you don't agree with it is in bad taste and is what truly undercuts any community.

Yup, committing what you think is bad taste is a horrible sin on my part. Truly, I am a horrible person and should leave the community... Carefacemissedit. (Note: This is not a strawman, it's mother f***ing sarcasm. I'm saying I don't give a s*** about what you think is bad taste.)

People are out of their damned minds, I swear.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mister Blastman, on 04 February 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

Exactly! There are no stakes!
Though Dark Souls does a great job building tension and Elite Dangerous will cost you dearly if you get blown up. There's no loading your game there.

Games need stakes and ownership. Stuff that makes you sweat and forces you to be screwed. I loved how old games purposefully tried to "**** you over."

Yeah, this is why we cant have real clans. ppl cant deal with challenge

Mister Blastman, on 04 February 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

Oh please. Elder Scrolls Oblivion totally holds your hand. So does Skyrim! If anything, Oblivion and Skyrim have dumbed down the series substantially since the pinnacle game Morrowind. Go back and play through Morrowind if you don't believe me. I did last year using the Overhaul mod.

And even Morrowind was dumbed down from Daggerfall in some respects...

Let's see, where to start...

Daggerfall had randomly generated non-linear dungeons. You could literally get lost in those things for hours, if not days.

Morrowind had semi-linear dungeons, unfortunately. That's the glaring downside to it versus Daggerfall. It elaborated and improved dramatically on many things though.

But, once we get to Oblivion and Skyrim we have stupid things like...

Map markers that show you where EVERYTHING is. It's no longer figure out where to go by talking to people. No, it is follow the compass! Can you get any dumber?

YES. YES YOU CAN!

Not only did they dumb down the quest finding system, they dumbed down the dialogue. Now, truth be told, Morrowind had nice dialogue but a lot was repetitive. But you had to dig and use your head to figure things out.

Not in Oblivion or Skyrim! There were like three or four lines of dialogue and that's it. Bam, done with the NPC. Move on. Oh, and while you're at it that super hard rare object that is legendary... is right on your map.

And then, when you got to the dungeons... they were on rails! Just walk in a straight (twisting) line and complete them.

Oh, what about the monsters... In Morrowind you could go places and get in over your head and get destroyed. Not in Oblivion or Skyrim! NOPE! Monsters level with you! You can totally beat the whole game at level 1. (You can cheat and do that with Morrowind too but that's completely different). The monster system after Morrowind is awful. That's why there are mods to fix it. Lots of mods. Because it sucks.

That's enough for now.

dont forget fast travel - none of that in **edit** Morrowind **edit** (that I remember)

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 04 February 2015 - 10:03 PM.