142 replies to this topic

[Serpieri]

Ace Selin, on 07 February 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Yep, the 3 ERPPC 9S whilst great at sniping a few times then stopping due to heat, is quite sucky at defending itself from lights and bralwing up close, especially against AC/SRM(Streak) mechs who can continue pounding it while it overheats (and shuts down). The 9S is finally in a decent place.

I never saw it this way - my God it must be a lot worse for the Awesome, Adder, Catapult K2, Warhawk etc...that don't have these quirks.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Again the op and most other nerfers have missed the point. It's not the thunderbolt, the quirks or the erppc that is the issue. It's the high alpha pin point meta where stacking the same weapon and pushing the I win button is king. Until there is either a limit on what weapons can be placed in what slot, or a major increase to both cool down and heat for this kind if game play, it will be the meta king. Stop the cries for weapon and quirk nerfs and start talking about the real issue.

Edited by Zerstorer Stallin, 07 February 2015 - 06:47 PM.

[SweetJackal]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 07 February 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

Again the op and most other nerfers have missed the point. It's not the thunderbolt, the quirks or the erppc that is the issue. It's the high alpha pin point meta where stacking the same weapon and pushing the I win button is king. Until there is either a limit on what weapons can be placed in what slot, or a major increase to both cool down and heat for this kind if game play, it will be the meta king. Stop the cries for weapon and quirk nerfs and start talking about the real issue.

Another way to bring that damage spread that the TT enforced by dice rolls is to use fixed convergence. Have torso mounted weapons have their convergence point fixed to the weapon's optimum range as how WWII planes were set up. Increases build depth, skill ceiling, control complexity and avoids restricting build freedom at the same time while achieving the objective of reducing pinpoint damage without having shots go somewhere the player wasn't aiming.

[Brody319]

Even if we didn't have pin point convergence instantly, the Thunderbolt would STILL be OP. Its 2 main PPCs are on the same level as the cockpit, and in the torso, so convergence wouldn't even bother them.

[SweetJackal]

Brody319, on 07 February 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

Even if we didn't have pin point convergence instantly, the Thunderbolt would STILL be OP. Its 2 main PPCs are on the same level as the cockpit, and in the torso, so convergence wouldn't even bother them.

Yes, it would. With fixed convergence to the torso mounted weapons out to optimum range then the point in space that the projectiles of the weapons connect to the same point (and become pinpoint) would be exactly at their optimum range. For the ERPPC it would be at 810 meters instead of dynamically changing to the distance of the object your crosshair is pointed at.

This would mean that before 810 meters there would be an offset from where the cursor is pointed and where the shots would hit. This offset for range exists in most modern shooting done today and mimics real life, doing so in a reliable fashion means that it is a skill that the mind can learn and adapt to.

For the TDR the offset from right torso mounted weapons would be more extreme as the cockpit is mounted over the left torso. If you are using 3 ERPPC (which I point out is the build that everyone names when they complain about it) then the 3rd ERPPC is going to be mounted in the other torso.

Either way this offset is less than one mech width. The difference between the shots in a volley are at their most extreme the distance between the mounted points of the weapons, as the weapons are the origin themselves. Even weapons mounted in the same location would have slightly different offsets, a volley of fire would not occupy one point in space except at their optimum range.

The only torso mounted weapons that would not be affected by this would be weapons mounted directly below the cockpit like the Cent is with it's CT Lasers.

This increases the opportunity shots to miss, hit the wrong location or have projectiles spread out over multiple locations entirely by pilot error by increasing the amount of control and management the game demands from the player.

[Wildstreak]

@SuckyJack

Yeah right, nice try.

Having run Awesomes for some time since they were the first owned Mech I had going all the way back to 2012 including the 8Q, your comparison ignores facts I and others have known and still do.

The 8Q along with all Awesomes has a bigger profile making it easier to hit even after quirks & hitbox changes designed to make it tougher.

The 8Q has 1 shield arm on the left, the 9S can shield on the left and even the right only losing 1ML that should be in that arm if anything.

The 8Q looks like it has better tanking buffs with 20 CT and 10 each side torso but the 9S has 15 per side torso so it is close here.

The 8Q is slower, part of why it is easier to hit, even though both the 8Q & 9S use the same 300 engine. In addition, how MWO is designed gives the 9S a better Twist speed.

The 8Q has one high mounted hardpoint on the head that is not good for PPCs, the 9S has 2 shoulder mounts providing another advantage.

The 8Q has better twist range that is not a big deal given it is slower in twisting than the 9S so that is not an advantage, the Torso Turn Rate buff of 10% on Awesomes does not fix that.

The 8Q has benefits for standard PPCs, the 9S for ERPPCs.
Range quirks give its PPCs a range of 675, max of 1350 compared to the 9S with no range quirks still haveing ranges of 810/1620.
Velocity quirks make 8Q PPCs fire at 1187.5 speed, 9S ERPPCs move at 1207.5.
Cooldown quirks and both PPCs being the same here are even.
Laser Duration quirks is the same.
Obvious heat quirks make even stagger fired 9S ERPPCs go from 45 heat to 22.5, stagger fired 8Q PPCs generate the same heat of 22.5.

The 9S outperforms the 8Q at a lower tonnage with
- a smaller profile, let's say call hitboxes even
- better tanking
- better movement & twist speed
- better mounts for 2 of the Big Guns
- better quirk benefits making its ERPPCs function as cool as the 8Qs PPCs while still having superior range and PPC speed.

Want the Awesome-9M instead? The 9S is better than that due to
- a smaller profile, let's say call hitboxes even
- better tanking
- better movement & twist speed
- better mounts for 2 of the Big Guns
- better heat since the 9M has ERPPC heat benefits of 25% only.
The 9M range quirk despite letting it shoot further up to 1012.5/2025 and PPC speed advantage do not make up for the larger number of 9S advantages and how powerful they are.

In CW, the lower tonnage 9S will be seen more often because of how many can be fit in a drop deck. You can run 2 Awesomes max because 3 max out your deck at 240 tons and TMK you have to have 4 Mechs in a deck, no less. You can run 3 TDR-9S with 45 tons left over, enough for a popular Firestarter, Jenner, ECM Spider for a zerg rush or other reason.

Please stop comparing the 9S and IS decks to Clan.
Clans could run 2 Timber, 1 Storm with 40 tons left over.
Clans have the 1 Timber, 3 Storm but Timber vs 9S comparisons keep getting made ignoring this popular Clan deck has 1 Timber while the IS can run 2-3 9S easy. So you should compare the more numerous 9S to the Storms, have fun with that.
Clan vs 9S comparisons also keep ignoring how there have been Clan players wanting quirks to change what Mechs they run, constantly bringing up current popular Clan decks is ignoring what Clan players have been saying. Stop living in isolation like the No Nerf Party.

If you don't want hyperbole, don't introduce it into the discussion.

It is not just the heat though that is a factor. Any attempt to claim the Awesomes have better advantages doesn't work. Awesomes do not dominate Thunderbolts.

[DarkExar]

So much talking and a simple cure is just nerf Clans.
Everything.
Twice.
World's gonna be a better place?

EDIT: to those few - now /sarcasm off

ps. my hybrid streakcrow is preparing his belly for panther fiesta

Edited by DarkExar, 07 February 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[s0hno]

All these "this is op, that is op, blooo..." - threads!

To put it in a nutshell: the game is quite well balanced at this time. Of course, clan mechs are in advance, which complies to the lore (if that counts something).

But still, the better team wins. Not the one with more TBR/SCR/9S/Firestarters on it's side ^^

[Duke Nedo]

Mawai, on 07 February 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Actually, even 40% heat would probably leave it good but not OP ... drop it to 25% and the mech probably becomes mediocre and pretty useless again. I've overheated my 9S even with its current quirks ... it can be very effective ... and it is probably a bit overpowered.

I'll also note that I have done just as well in my 5SS as my 9S ... and I have seen folks do better than either of these in Stormcrows or Timberwolves. Both Timberwolves and Stormcrows seem also generally OP but the folks who want nerfs for the 9S rarely seem to also beg for nerfs for these mechs ... which both seem better than the 9S.

I tried the 9S after the first quirk pass and already then I thought it was one of the winners of the big quirk lottery... at 25% heat reduction I ran it with 2x ERPPC+1x Gauss and it was really really good. Imo, that build would be a bit more balanced than the current 3x steroid ERPPC build since it does not have perfectly matched velocity alpha, uses XL and puts one gun at a lower mount in the arm which both uses ammo and can be blown off... Still a very good build, just less cheesy.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Brody319, on 07 February 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

Even if we didn't have pin point convergence instantly, the Thunderbolt would STILL be OP. Its 2 main PPCs are on the same level as the cockpit, and in the torso, so convergence wouldn't even bother them.

BY all rights, PPCs should be OP. They are the most powerful energy weapon in the MW universe. The issue is how there is no limits by heat to how often you can fire.

I mean, lets imagine if in like World of Tanks an IS7 could fire it's 130mm gun, dealing avg 490dmg, 258penetration, every 2s infinitely....with the only limit being how tired your hand got....

Convergeance would help, if paired alongside a limited heat system. 60-100 heat points to fire with, and no penalties or stoppers along the way.....then, while other mechs have to be limited by a 15 heat limit, 4s CD and mediocre velocity, the TDR9S is able to fire 15 heat for 7.5, it can cool down like a second or 2 faster, it travels quite a bit faster and it just happens to have the perk of having high, adjacent mounted hardpoints right under the cockpit for easy use and aiming.

I suppose its not so much the TDR9S in itself, but the wide array of ****** mechanics in this game.

[Clint Steel]

The PPCs on the 9s are basically unnerfed PPCs from back in the day.

I do think they are very effective weapons Maybe a little less heat reduction, like 10% less would be ok. Personally I think the Catapult K2, and the Awesomes should get the same quirks as the Thunderbolt.

[WarZ]

Smokeyjedi, on 07 February 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

Are you stunned or just being obtuse?

A stormcrow or timberwolf using energy weapons will pinpoint a single panel on a mech @ 800 M way better than say a Atlas RS with 4LL

A STLKR with torso mounted energy is on par with Clan arm mounted weapons..........Think about that for a second before you say more stupid crap.

And you are blind as a f'ing bat and dont know how to read an OP and thread before replying ?!? Laser vomit is still SPREAD damage. With REALLY HIGH HEAT. IT WILL NOT POINPOINT BY DEFAULT. It will take a pilot with excellent aim control to come close to putting it on one component. At range far less makes it to one component. BUT...

When you turn around and compare that to a 3-erppc 9S athunderbolt ...

The 9S wins. Longer range. True pinpoint LONG distance damage. Very comfortable heat.

Are you being obstructive ? Or just have a severe reading problem and cant read the OP or follow the actual thread discussion ?!? L2P. YOU should be the one thinking for a second before you spout stupid crap.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

What amazes me in these threads of qq is how far off both sides are about the real issues. Thunderbolts arent broken, the erppc is not broken, the quirks are not broken....

STACKING THE SAME WEAPON,
FRONT LOADING DAMAGE PIN POINT ACCURACY...
I WIN

its the meta of MWO ... its bad... and I dont think PGI will fix it. Thats why next mech on the qq train will be the firestarter. Then there will be another after that and that and that just like there already has been the small laser hunchie, the splat cat, the dual gauss cat, the 6 erppc stalker, the dual ac 20 jager.... and the list goes on till the end of MWO. Until people stop cryng about the stuff that isnt the issue and ask why there is one of these ******** threads every month then the end is nigh.

Edited by Zerstorer Stallin, 09 February 2015 - 07:29 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 09 February 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

What amazes me in these threads of qq is how far off both sides are about the real issues. Thunderbolts arent broken, the erppc is not broken, the quirks are not broken....

STACKING THE SAME WEAPON,
FRONT LOADING DAMAGE PIN POINT ACCURACY...
I WIN

its the meta of MWO ... its bad... and I dont think PGI will fix it. Thats why next mech on the qq train will be the firestarter. Then there will be another after that and that and that just like there already has been the small laser hunchie, the splat cat, the dual gauss cat, the 6 erppc stalker, the dual ac 20 jager.... and the list goes on till the end of MWO. Until people stop cryng about the stuff that isnt the issue and ask why there is one of these ******** threads every month then the end is nigh.

Sire, the ERPPC+9S-quirks actually is a broken weapon. It's nowhere close to where the ERPPC is, it's a completely different weapon that is twice as good. That in turn allows a 65-tonner to boat them successfully.

[Sarlic]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 09 February 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

What amazes me in these threads of qq is how far off both sides are about the real issues. Thunderbolts arent broken, the erppc is not broken, the quirks are not broken....

STACKING THE SAME WEAPON,
FRONT LOADING DAMAGE PIN POINT ACCURACY...
I WIN

its the meta of MWO ... its bad... and I dont think PGI will fix it. Thats why next mech on the qq train will be the firestarter. Then there will be another after that and that and that just like there already has been the small laser hunchie, the splat cat, the dual gauss cat, the 6 erppc stalker, the dual ac 20 jager.... and the list goes on till the end of MWO. Until people stop cryng about the stuff that isnt the issue and ask why there is one of these ******** threads every month then the end is nigh.

Are you joking?

Edited by Sarlic, 10 February 2015 - 12:28 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Well, the "meta" seems to have arrived now in PuGs, too "Me drivz da 9S pew pew"...so much fun...

[Asrrin]

All I see in this thread are a bunch of clammers crying because they are no longer p2w and window licking IS pilots that want to nerf everything that kills them.

Cry more, and then get better.

[Mcgral18]

Asrrin, on 10 February 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

All I see in this thread are a bunch of clammers crying because they are no longer p2w and window licking IS pilots that want to nerf everything that kills them.

Cry more, and then get better.

So, again, you've got no issues with 40% heat Badder Primes and NoVa-A's.


Just double checking. Because I'd be alright with that, it's only fair that both Bad chassis, from both factions, get adequate buffs. Because it's in no way out of line.

[MechWarrior5152251]

I have seen a flood of sniveling crybabies. What I have NEVER seen is a screen shot of a win by a team of TDRs, nor even more than 5 TDRs ever on the field. We have all seen more than 6 TBRs on the field at once....

[Mcgral18]

MechWarrior5152251, on 10 February 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

I have seen a flood of sniveling crybabies. What I have NEVER seen is a screen shot of a win by a team of TDRs, nor even more than 5 TDRs ever on the field. We have all seen more than 6 TBRs on the field at once....

You obviously don't play CW very much. Not to mention, it doesn't show on the scoreboard. You'd have to pop a UAV and press Q, or suicide charge to see most of them.

Or run one yourself.

Groups are where you'll see the organized drops of 6+ of the same chassis, with whatever supporting ones. Sometimes all 12 of the same, but not everyone does that.


So many whiny people don't want their easy button touched. How sad.

Edited by Mcgral18, 10 February 2015 - 08:23 AM.